Should Winona be a swap character?

[WereBruhver]

What happens to Winona kit's being or not mostly something to swap into to craft and swap from to use as other character should be remembered when the same question arises from Warly and Wicker so its not just an arbitrary decision which characters get to be treated like this or not.

In my opinion her kit should be kept as something you can use as other characters and I think this mostly because It keeps open the possibility of klei extending being able to use one character's perks as another character and there are tools from other characters I have always looked foward to use while playing another one, Wanda teleportation watch is an example It is such a good tool late game I wish I could enjoy it on other characters, it opens a lot of possibilities.

[EatenCheetos]

1 hour ago, WereBruhver said:

being able to use one character's perks as another character

This should not be a thing. This should never be a thing. The concept of swap characters should be burned to the ground

[cybers2001]

There's nothing inherently bad about being a swap character. For many players that have a preferred main, any other character they play are essentially swap characters.

If I main Wolfgang, and Winona stops being a swap character, all that means to me is that I'll be playing even less Winona, and will just have to opt out of the extra content she provides.

[KrazJoe]

Swap character, no.

Coop friendly character, yes.

What does Winona brings to coop? I wished Winona skill focused more on crafting, like reduced cost or further increased speed with a workbench without hunger drain.

I think catapult was fine before update, she needed improvement on other aspect and areas, but all been bet on catapult now.

[GreenBowers]

No one should be a swap character, swap characters shouldnt exist.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, KrazJoe said:

What does Winona brings to coop?

If you mean with her present easier resource gathering and catapults.

If you mean when she's not present spotlights that can keep you warm and tape which repairs like a sewing kit and repairs leaks.

[KrazJoe]

27 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

If you mean with her present easier resource gathering and catapults.

If you mean when she's not present spotlights that can keep you warm and tape which repairs like a sewing kit and repairs leaks.

In addition to spotlight and tapes, there is also the Winbot.

But personally, the impact on coop does not outshine her former use.

While Winona is in the world, she will need to be at the location in order for teammate to use the farm she set up, this has a negative impact on multiplayer.

If we categorize characters between solo play and multiplayer, Winona is switching from multiplayer to more solo oriented.

[arubaro]

If a character is fun they will be played

You can abuse warly dishes but there are people that enjoy him

Winona was special because her gameplay was wilson+catapults so there was no reason to keep playing as her once you obtain her only thing. Now she has cool interactions, gameplay loop and strategies so, even if you could abuse her catapults by crafting them in every boss arena and making 472726 automated farms there will be people (myself include which hated her design) that will enjoy playing as her

[Mysterious box]

7 minutes ago, KrazJoe said:

n addition to spotlight and tapes, there is also the Winbot.

I meant Winbot when I said easier resource gathering.

9 minutes ago, KrazJoe said:

But personally, the impact on coop does not outshine her former use.

While Winona is in the world, she will need to be at the location in order for teammate to use the farm she set up, this has a negative impact on multiplayer.

This applies to multiple characters though for example in order to use Wickerbottom farms you need to play Wickerbottom or Maxwell should everyone be allowed to read her books to have a positive impact on the multiplayer experience? I personally don't feel every character's best ability needs to be accessible to everyone for their support to matter.

11 minutes ago, KrazJoe said:

If we categorize characters between solo play and multiplayer, Winona is switching from multiplayer to more solo oriented.

Not really spotlights especially with the improvements in this update are very impactful in multiplayer setting and tape is also very useful being that it's 2 item's utilities in 1 but also stacks.

[KrazJoe]

47 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This applies to multiple characters though for example in order to use Wickerbottom farms you need to play Wickerbottom or Maxwell should everyone be allowed to read her books to have a positive impact on the multiplayer experience? I personally don't feel every character's best ability needs to be accessible to everyone for their support to matter.

I think the difference is that Wickerbottom books are more a resource tradeoff. Her books perk is more about the outcome over the seupt reusability. The setup is usable without Wickerbottom player, just less efficient. Personally, it's more about the space allocation. I tend to take up minimal space.

Disclaimer that I have yet play Wickerbottom.

[Mysterious box]

7 minutes ago, KrazJoe said:

I think the difference is that Wickerbottom books are more a resource tradeoff. Her books perk is more about the outcome over the seupt reusability. The setup is usable without Wickerbottom player, just less efficient. Personally, it's more about the space allocation. I tend to take up minimal space.

Disclaimer that I have yet play Wickerbottom.

This also applies to Winona though you can't do the farms she setups without her but it's not like you can't get the resources from less efficient means and the same applies to Wickerbottom.

[KrazJoe]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

This also applies to Winona though you can't do the farms she setups without her but it's not like you can't get the resources from less efficient means and the same applies to Wickerbottom.

Fair, then I guess it's a matter of space allocation.

I guess the sentiment over catapult is due to its usefulness. It would have been less controversial if Houndious Shootious or cannon are equivalent to previous catapult in resource efficiency.

[FluffyBun]

9 hours ago, EatenCheetos said:

This should not be a thing. This should never be a thing. The concept of swap characters should be burned to the ground

I disagree. Characters should fundamentally be able to benefit other characters, having a "teamplay" and "solo-play" component. Sometimes, said "teamplay" component will come off as "swap-ish", but by limiting your design space by rejecting "swap" characters outright, you make the game worse by removing certain types of gameplay.

Winona's catapults fall directly into this category. Winona's gameplay historically is not flawed because she is a "swap character", it's because she does not have an earlygame or a midgame. By simply making Winona more unique earlier, people will be incentivised to play Winona because she's generally fun to play in earlier stages of the game.

Lategame, every character is a swap character (except Wortox). Swap to Wurt to make mosquito fertilizers or a Merm King, swap to Wolfgang for damage, swap to Wanda for daily use, swap to Willow to mass produce Bernies, swap to Maxwell to read books...

[Mike23Ua]

4 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

If you mean with her present easier resource gathering and catapults.

If you mean when she's not present spotlights that can keep you warm and tape which repairs like a sewing kit and repairs leaks.

“tape” repairs far more things than a sewing kit can, the most noteable thing being Thermal Stones.

Winona is the Queen of Winter, and the new Heated Spotlights further solidify that position for her.

[chaosmonkey]

1 hour ago, FluffyBun said:

Lategame, every character is a swap character (except Wortox). Swap to Wurt to make mosquito fertilizers or a Merm King, swap to Wolfgang for damage, swap to Wanda for daily use, swap to Willow to mass produce Bernies, swap to Maxwell to read books...

Yes! Swapability makes for more interesting gameplay, especially for late game worlds and solo players. 

[Maxil20]

11 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

“tape” repairs far more things than a sewing kit can, the most noteable thing being Thermal Stones.

Tape and sewing kits are identical when it comes to repairing clothing, which includes the thermal stone. The only thing it cannot do that tape can is patch up holes in a boat.

[TizianOwO]

1 hour ago, FluffyBun said:

I disagree. Characters should fundamentally be able to benefit other characters...

Missing the point. No-one denied this, they just don't think characters shouldn't be able to get every single meaningful benefit of another character without even playing them, at that point they might as well be a crafting recipe and not a character.

[chaosmonkey]

2 minutes ago, TizianOwO said:

Missing the point. No-one denied this, they just don't think characters shouldn't be able to get every single meaningful benefit of another character without even playing them, at that point they might as well be a crafting recipe and not a character.

This quote was taken out of context. Their point was that the skill tree should be introducing more meaningful benefits and incentive to actually playing that character. People aren't asking for all of Winona's new stuff to be available to everyone else; they're asking to not take away the basic/unupgraded catapults we've had for 7 years.

[EatenCheetos]

2 hours ago, FluffyBun said:

Swap to Wurt to make mosquito fertilizers or a Merm King, swap to Wolfgang for damage, swap to Wanda for daily use, swap to Willow to mass produce Bernies, swap to Maxwell to read books...

This is exactly why I think swapping should be banned. You can use every character’s upsides whenever you need and avoid every characters downsides whenever you need.

You’re basically playing a super character with every upside and no downside.

44 minutes ago, chaosmonkey said:

they're asking to not take away the basic/unupgraded catapults

So every character should get access to Winona’s catapults even if they’re not playing Winona? C’mon now…

[chaosmonkey]

22 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

So every character should get access to Winona’s catapults even if they’re not playing Winona? C’mon now…

You're intentionally ignoring the point. It's not about giving everyone the full power of her upgraded catapults, it's about not taking away functionality that's been available and depended upon for 7 years.

I get that you don't like swapping, but lots of people do. Play how you want, and don't prevent other players from playing how they want. And if you really hate swapping that much, maybe you can run your own server with a mod that disables it.

[EatenCheetos]

3 minutes ago, chaosmonkey said:

it's about not taking away functionality that's been available and depended upon for 7 years.

https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/the-sunk-cost-fallacy

3 minutes ago, chaosmonkey said:

Play how you want, and don't prevent other players from playing how they want.

Oh so we’re never supposed to talk about nerfs to things we find OP? Because that’s what this argument sounds like.

[GreenBowers]

1 minute ago, chaosmonkey said:

You're intentionally ignoring the point. It's not about giving everyone the full power of her upgraded catapults, it's about not taking away functionality that's been available and depended upon for 7 years.

I get that you don't like swapping, but lots of people do. Play how you want, and don't prevent other players from playing how they want. And if you really hate swapping that much, maybe you can run your own server with a mod that disables it.

Your argument would be the same if for 7 years, Wendy could craft abigail flowers for others to summon a ghost and get the full use of Abigail, without having to play Wendy. If she was in the same state that once you crafted her permanent gimmick youd just swap off her to be someone else while still fully able to use her gimmick, and then they suddenly changed it so that only Wendy could summon and use Abigail.

The catapults shouldn't be required to be open to everyone. Everyone already gets the tape, spotlight, and winbots for their teamplay. Just like everyone can get Woody Cane, hardhat, and treeguard idols but cant get the beaver idol to turn into a werebeaver

[chaosmonkey]

2 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/the-sunk-cost-fallacy

This is not sunk cost fallacy. That requires that a change would generally be understood as beneficial. Making certain farms no longer function in solo play is not beneficial. It might benefit you for whatever reason, but it does not benefit everyone for a variety of reasons. Also please if you wish to make a claim like this then back it up rather than just linking an idea.

4 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

Oh so we’re never supposed to talk about nerfs to things we find OP? Because that’s what this argument sounds like.

Talking balance is fine. I love talking balance. I don't think you and I in particular are going to find a middle ground on swapping. We are at opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue.

[Soul7k]

13 minutes ago, GreenBowers said:

Your argument would be the same if for 7 years, Wendy could craft abigail flowers for others to summon a ghost and get the full use of Abigail, without having to play Wendy. If she was in the same state that once you crafted her permanent gimmick youd just swap off her to be someone else while still fully able to use her gimmick, and then they suddenly changed it so that only Wendy could summon and use Abigail.

The catapults shouldn't be required to be open to everyone. Everyone already gets the tape, spotlight, and winbots for their teamplay. Just like everyone can get Woody Cane, hardhat, and treeguard idols but cant get the beaver idol to turn into a werebeaver

A: that argument doesnt exist. Yes I would be upset if I used toilet paper to clean myself for x amount of years and someone took away all the toilet paper.  B: think about it this way. every time a winona logs off i am hammering down her structures

[GreenBowers]

6 minutes ago, Soul7k said:

A: that argument doesnt exist. Yes I would be mad if I used toilet paper to clean myself for x amount of years and someone took away all the toilet paper.  B: think about it this way. every time a winona logs off i am hammering down her structures

That argument does exist, you're just not taking the time to actually consider it.

 

Just to really stick the landing and actually make her unique, I hope Klei doubles down and makes the catapults fully only usable by her. I don't swap using the portal anyways.