Wilson's inferiority

[Anis5240]

1 minute ago, Gi-Go said:

Your source is that you made it up

No, not entirely. Hell, I can even set up a poll right now to see what most Wilson players here would choose their skill tree points to be spent on.

[Master_NiX]

Cant wait for Klei to make Wilson OP by allowing him to juggle torches!

[Gi-Go]

35 minutes ago, mkemal23 said:

Literally yes. He lost his one unique thing which was having no downsides.

This dosen't make any sence. The characters still have downsides even if they are barely affecting gameplay, and many characters had no impactful downsides whatsoever to begin with. 

[Jakepeng99]

2 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Oh God, not another Wilson thread. Stop trying to give him quirks, he is the main character who is also underdog, what do you not understand? 

Before Wurt buff, Wurt was fun as an underdog because you can actually pull up some powerful things. It was fun going against everyone's opinions on her and killing bee queen, farming logs and turning merms into surf n turf.

 

Though with Wilson, its like "Guys, watch me turn this meat into 2 morsels!"

[chincer]

wilson is not suppose to be "average" which imply he is middle of the pack compare to the whole, he suppose to be "baseline" which means every other survivor suppose to be comparable to him, those that struggle more being worse, those that have more tools being better.

klei even when an ensure this be the case by after giving wilson a skill tree, decided to give everyone one, raising wilson standard to later raise everyone's else.

i do agree he is at no point a "pick this if you like the baseline" anymore, he isnt even the newbie friendly character to an extend, you can make woodie to have no downsides and an infinite axe, wendy's "downside" matters very little to both new players and veterans, his skill tree have some nice uses but nothing game breaking

[Guille6785]

unpopular opinion: I don't think DST's character roster needs to be "balanced" in the way that fighting game/moba rosters are balanced, I think it's ok for characters to exist outside an imaginary baseline of power

[Anis5240]

2 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

think it's ok for characters to exist outside an imaginary baseline of power

And then what? Other characters gonna be left in the dust? "Weak" characters, I mean, of course.

Sure, DS/T is a survival game, but at this rate it's moving closer to just bashing bosses. Combat stuff is still welcomed, but making them too overpowered is not the right way to do it. Willow's embers coming out of nowhere, the battle saddle being locked behind Wigfrid's skill tree crafts, etc.

The "Together" part is slowly being eroded at this point. No downsides really going to matter for characters and players to help each other at this point.

[Guille6785]

7 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

And then what? Other characters gonna be left in the dust? "Weak" characters, I mean, of course.

character """strength""" has never had any correlation whatsoever to their popularity

[Anis5240]

2 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

character """strength""" has never had any correlation whatsoever to their popularity

but they do affect the players' choice.

With Wolfgang you can just pump up some mightiness points then boom, you're set for 2x damage, speed not affected by heavy items, etc.

Wigfrid gets free sanity and health from hitting mobs/punching bag makes her good for players who want to get deeper and further into combat without making them too vulnerable against heavy-hitting bosses.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

unpopular opinion: I don't think DST's character roster needs to be "balanced" in the way that fighting game/moba rosters are balanced, I think it's ok for characters to exist outside an imaginary baseline of power

While I do agree that dst doesn't need a moba balancing as in my opinion it's just better that everyone has something unique they excel at there does come the problem that everyone has a favorite character(s) so making a intentional balance gap is just going to upset people it's kinda just asking for backlash it's the reason the Wormwood situation ended up like it did and it's also the reason klei ended up revisiting already completed skill trees. The larger the gap the more conflict is bred in the community even if a game isn't competitive so long as it's multiplayer balance tends to have a fairly big impact.

[GimplyGoose]

My opinion is that Wilson needs to be underwhelming or he loses what makes him Wilson.

I think that a lot of people on the forums are coming up with great ideas regarding Wilson, but I would prefer Wilson be left alone.

All these suggestions and threads about on Wilson changes feel like (to me) people demanding Wilson's name be changed to Bilson because it isn't fair that Maxwell is the only character whose (stage) name doesn't start with "W".

[Guille6785]

36 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

While I do agree that dst doesn't need a moba balancing as in my opinion it's just better that everyone has something unique they excel at there does come the problem that everyone has a favorite character(s) so making a intentional balance gap is just going to upset people it's kinda just asking for backlash it's the reason the Wormwood situation ended up like it did and it's also the reason klei ended up revisiting already completed skill trees. The larger the gap the more conflict is bred in the community even if a game isn't competitive so long as it's multiplayer balance tends to have a fairly big impact.

The problem with this line of thinking is that you can't have a cast of 18 characters that are all unique and similarly balanced at the same time because people value different aspects of the games and perks wildly differently; an obvious example of this is damage, which tends to be overrated by a massive portion of intermediate players but is very unnecessary once you're more comfortable with fighting the big bosses, and many players straight up don't value killing bosses at all; because of things like this you can't have "true balance" in a game like DST since there will never be a consensus on how good a farming perk (for example) has to be to be considered "as good" as a damage perk

I personally see the pursuit of balance as a lost cause that will make the game worse if Klei ever decides to go in that direction (which is why I'm glad they almost never do), IMO Klei should just focus on making the characters fun and unique

[Mysterious box]

33 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

The problem with this line of thinking is that you can't have a cast of 18 characters that are all unique and similarly balanced at the same time because people value different aspects of the games and perks wildly differently

While I agree with this...

33 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

IMO Klei should just focus on making the characters fun and unique

This is a form of balancing and the reason I've said I'm not a fan of characters having too many overlapping perks. After all balance doesn't how to equate to power or usefulness it could just be a character offering a completely unique experience.

For example I feel like most people didn't care that wormwood doesn't hit as hard as Wolfgang for example they just wanted him to showcase a style and qualities all his own that separates him from the next guy.

[Monkey Cups]

14 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Oh God, not another Wilson thread. Stop trying to give him quirks, he is the main character who is also underdog, what do you not understand? 

I'm very contrary by nature. You telling me not to do something just makes me want to do it more.

So anyway, medic Wilson when?

[Bumber64]

8 hours ago, GimplyGoose said:

My opinion is that Wilson needs to be underwhelming or he loses what makes him Wilson.

Isn't that Wes?

Wilson's upside is that he has no downside, and vice-versa. That was fine before other characters got skill trees that basically negate their downsides. (See: Willow's Fire Ball and Woodie's Lunar Renegade.) Since that's done through skill trees, Wilson needs one that's beyond mediocre to preserve even his previous relative mediocrity.

He's got some good things in his skill tree, but there's just not enough of it compared to the abilities others get in addition to their skill trees. (Especially those who got new stuff in their rework and don't even have skill trees yet!)

[Anis5240]

41 minutes ago, Monkey Cups said:

So anyway, medic Wilson when?

Real.

It's not like it's out of his character.

Back then, during DS era we only have like 2 points where Wilson "indulged" in medical stuff, which was the meat effigy and the Peg Leg item quote.

But when DST came, we got more healing items that he created, the telltale heart and the booster shot. Then the Forge came, which gave him actual revival and healing perks. The "Wilson used to be in medical field" theory makes more sense by each time DST got new stuff. By the time the Gorge came, and him dressed as a physician, that's more than enough to solidify such claims.

I'm starting to think the old DS up to A New Reign was produced by different people, while Return of Them up till now was managed by other people, who barely used to work on DS/T. Such big disconnections between the 2 eras is concerning, don't you think? And mind you, this is just about over a decade old. What about the next 5 years? 10 years?

So Klei, I think you better start voice out your stance about WHY you remaining silent over Wilson players' outcry to have his skill tree fixed.

8 hours ago, GimplyGoose said:

he loses what makes him Wilson.

What makes him Wilson in the first place is just his beard. And even then it's not like the original, default Wilson from Don't Starve is gone forever, unlike the difference of other DS characters in DST. The DS Wilson is still accessible, by NOT spending the insight points.

But the game itself is changing. And some guy with a beard doesn't sell as much attention as 2x damage character, a helpful AOE-damage dealing NPC, and many more.

So really, I do get why Klei made Wilson having a skill tree. It's to make him still reliable and useful for both solo and multiplayer worlds, even as the game keeps moving far away from its core. BUT the options he had as of now kinda stinks. Is the goddamn 7-point torch tree worth it to make it viable? Is just one type of transmutation and its reverse viable for what it worths? And the full transmutation tree already takes 10 points, out of the 15 points given.

Wilson DOESN'T even have a decent range of options to choose from. Just THREE sections without counting the affinity perks. Meanwhile Woodie, Willow, Wolfgang and Wigfrid have about 4-5 areas to explore on.

So before you start "arguing" about this whole "Wilson gotta remain basic", at least think of it from the game's current development.

[GimplyGoose]

1 hour ago, Anis5240 said:

So before you start "arguing" about this whole "Wilson gotta remain basic", at least think of it from the game's current development.

You haven't changed my opinion. My opinion is that Wilson is portrayed as a relatively unsuccessful gentleman (self-funded) scientist. One of his character traits is his mediocrity. He is mediocre now, so adding to his abilities would destroy that. You have come up with a lot of cool ideas and I like some of them, but I do not agree with you that Wilson should have those abilities. I think his skill tree is acceptable as is within the context of the game as it exists today.

1 hour ago, Anis5240 said:

So Klei, I think you better start voice out your stance about WHY you remaining silent over Wilson players' outcry to have his skill tree fixed.

I am a Wilson player. You do not speak for me when you refer to an "outcry" from Wilson players to "fix" his skill tree.

1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

Isn't that Wes?

Wes and Wilson are similar in a lot of ways, but I think Wilson needs to be stronger than Wes. I think that Wilson currently beats out Wes, but if people started suggesting that Wes needed powerful skills in his skill tree, I would be opposed to that.

[Anis5240]

2 minutes ago, GimplyGoose said:

He is mediocre now, so adding to his abilities would destroy that

Well Willow also wasn't meant for such big changes, yet Klei went ahead with the discount Dwarf Stars and many others.

Honestly I think I said for everyone here when Klei right now is such a mixed bag. Why even broadcasting discount bee mines but mosquitoes for Wurt? Are they really satisfied by such ideas??? Look at how many Wurt players voiced their dissatisfaction over it.

The concern is valid, so that the character feels worth it. Same goes for any other characters. You can still like the character WHILE ALSO VOICE GOOD CONCERNS about them. So should Wilson.

[Faintly Macabre]

3 hours ago, Anis5240 said:

So really, I do get why Klei made Wilson having a skill tree. It's to make him still reliable and useful for both solo and multiplayer worlds, even as the game keeps moving far away from its core. BUT the options he had as of now kinda stinks. Is the goddamn 7-point torch tree worth it to make it viable? Is just one type of transmutation and its reverse viable for what it worths? And the full transmutation tree already takes 10 points, out of the 15 points given.

Wilson DOESN'T even have a decent range of options to choose from. Just THREE sections without counting the affinity perks. Meanwhile Woodie, Willow, Wolfgang and Wigfrid have about 4-5 areas to explore on.

It's almost as if his skill tree was designed to have a relatively low impact and just familiarize people with the concept

1 hour ago, Anis5240 said:

Honestly I think I said for everyone here when Klei right now is such a mixed bag. Why even broadcasting discount bee mines but mosquitoes for Wurt? Are they really satisfied by such ideas??? Look at how many Wurt players voiced their dissatisfaction over it.

You're right, nothing shows how out of touch Klei is like the forum imploding over a feature they're absolutely sure is useless despite not having actually seen it in action. That definitely reflects on Klei. At least use the copy-pasted Sisturn as your example here; it's the only thing that we know enough about to be reasonably certain it's actually not good.

[Anis5240]

15 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

It's almost as if his skill tree was designed to have a relatively low impact and just familiarize people with the concept

Even a low-impact character still can have decent changes. Look at Wes (yes I know not exactly the greatest example but still). The speedy balloon, the balloon vest. The balloons that can also be used as a small AOE damage is a good, and fun take.

 

18 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

At least use the copy-pasted Sisturn as your example here; it's the only thing that we know enough about to be reasonably certain it's actually not good.

But the decision for Klei to even showcase the mosquito bomb as this proud thing is ???? Is this the best thing they can come up with??? When bees are already easy enough to be gotten, especially with the regular merm-spider brawl in the swamp??? You get what I mean?

[Monkey Cups]

On 5/29/2024 at 1:29 AM, GimplyGoose said:

Wes and Wilson are similar in a lot of ways, but I think Wilson needs to be stronger than Wes. I think that Wilson currently beats out Wes, but if people started suggesting that Wes needed powerful skills in his skill tree, I would be opposed to that.

The speed balloons alone are enough of a reason to choose Wes over Wilson. Wes' downsides aren't even that bad, only in the area of mildly annoying if you're even vaguely familiar with the game. I have more trouble keeping Warly and Wortox alive than Wes.

[Popian]

On 5/28/2024 at 8:41 PM, Guille6785 said:

damage, which tends to be overrated by a massive portion of intermediate players but is very unnecessary once you're more comfortable with fighting the big bosses, and many players straight up don't value killing bosses at all

Damage isn't just for bosses, there's also sourcing materials and fighting off things you "can't" run away from.

Combat is the least trivial part of survival, as it sometimes asks for a little more than using an immunity perk or equivalent item. Those that see turning into a ghost because of that as a punishment are naturally inclined to pick Wendy or Wigfrid for the crutch perks, though this is getting a bit off into a tangent.

On 5/29/2024 at 8:41 AM, Faintly Macabre said:

At least use the copy-pasted Sisturn as your example here; it's the only thing that we know enough about to be reasonably certain it's actually not good.

Trading Kelp to get by with a passive farm using fewer houses and being able to use Merms more regularly earlier on is a good thing? You can even take them out when you're done with it.

[Anis5240]

On 5/29/2024 at 4:41 AM, Guille6785 said:

many players straight up don't value killing bosses at all

Cuz not all players are speedrunners, duh. And why should they? This is not a Boss Rush #63849 game simulator. Plenty of players would want to gather enough resources for daily survival in the game. All types of gameplay in DST is valid. Just cuz someone would rather farm 24/7 doesn't mean it's bad.

[Guille6785]

5 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

Cuz not all players are speedrunners, duh. And why should they? This is not a Boss Rush #63849 game simulator. Plenty of players would want to gather enough resources for daily survival in the game. All types of gameplay in DST is valid. Just cuz someone would rather farm 24/7 doesn't mean it's bad.

??????????????? wth does this have to do with my post

[Anis5240]

3 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

??????????????? wth does this have to do with my post

You said yourself. You think that many players "don't value" killing bosses. Why? Care to give an explanation? Is it wrong for them to not give a damn over the bosses?