Add more bosses like ANR bosses

[grm9]

Not including klaus and antlion, though.

New bosses (werepig, mutated bosses, frostjaw, werepig 2 etc.) are extremely simple and only require walking into a specific direction to dodge all of their attacks,

old bosses are much more complex and require you to figure out either items or set ups that you can use to counter what they do e.g. lazy explorer and getting away from FW right before he does bone cage, AoE and going through grumbles right before screech ends, pan flute and shooting at dfly right before it reaches you and getting closer to prevent flying hits etc.,

figuring out strats for and fighting old bosses is much more fun in comparison to new bosses that are extremely simple and become boring after you kill them 1-2 times and start feeling like a waste of time since there isn't a chance to fail,

a lot of people complain that old bosses are resource sinks but that simply isn't true, FW only requires weapon, armor, sanity and insanity food, dfly only requires a weapon and pan flute/ice staves/damage multiplier, BQ only requires a weapon, armor and pan flute and a lot of characters have much cheaper strats for it, toad only requires a weapon (ham bat also works, you can drop it onto the ground after it spawns a spore before the cloud spawns), an axe and a torch etc.,

some of these strats are hard, but that's the point, you get the choice to either get better and save a lot of time or waste a lot of time to become able to do the fight effortlessly,

but you only get the choice to easily and quickly do the fight the intended way in case of new bosses without a way to get better because there's nothing to improve at since you'll become able to do the fight almost as efficiently as possible after 1-2 attempts at worst,

you also don't get the choice to not spend time on them like how you could do that in case of old AG and are forced to waste time on boring stuff to access more fun stuff,

so i suggest to add more bosses like ANR bosses that were either fun puzzles with many solutions or that combined with an optionally hard and fun fight,

a lot of people say that they aren't fun but most of them just repeat what others said e.g. a very specific video about CK being bad that got made a few years ago and doesn't apply anymore because you can use rowing to dodge his attacks and have fun and the boss only required a number change to become more fun, but most people never tried fighting him by rowing and just kept repeating what others said and kept asking klei to rework a boss that they didn't like because they never tried fighting it the fun way,

a lot of people also complain about inventory management in case of FW but it isn't required, you don't need weather pains and doing the fight without them isn't that hard,

there are also complaints about being forced to cheese BQ because most strats are easy to do but the point of the fight is that it's a puzzle, i wouldn't mind a way to fight it skilfully with only a weapon getting added if that won't make all other strats unviable and it'll be about as hard and fun as FW instead of werepig or something like that,

a lot of people also complain about toad's hp being too high but that's just a number change, i wouldn't mind it's hp getting changed back to 30k or so,

many also complain about stuff like bone cage dodge having no clues about it existing but they could just get added,

so, as a conclusion, ANR bosses are better than new bosses because they're much more fun and complex and even people that don't like them can use easy strats and could've used cheese if it wouldn't have got removed for some reason and i'd want more bosses like FW instead of werepig, frostjaw etc. since they become boring after you kill them once or twice and start feeling like a waste of time 

[NoodlemanNed]

i like the idea of having more bosses designed like the old ones but the main issue with that is it disappoints the main target audience. Most people dont want a good replayable fight with various viable tactics. People want a simple fight thats easy to learn, so as much as werepig/frostjaw suck youre gonna be seeing more as time goes on because thats the kind of design that gets the most praise.

[Well-met]

this request makes no sense considering klei is directly moving away from this (they took away deerclops and bearger's AoE melee)

[Jakepeng99]

I get what you mean. For all of these bosses, its the exact same strategy every time, being just normal equipment and gear.

 

For the reworked crab king, i hope things like boat bumpers and cannonballs will be great for it. I dont like how current malbatross and crab king make gearing up your boat to make it better at killing them pointless since they either easily destroy it, or gearing them up adds nothing.

[mr. brj]

I agree with old bosses being way more fun and that enabling multiple strategies depending on the playstyle and the approach you want to take is a good thing.

I also think it's important to mention that the examples you provided are just a little taste of what these bosses have to offer. Even with a moderate amount of equipment to make everything more convenient, the old bosses provide a different experience even when the whole fight is just slightly different.

So, sticking with the Fuelweaver example, it's not necessarily a choice between no weather pains+minimal gear and two whole stacks of sanity food+lots of armor. Being able to choose between different combinations of simple and/or advanced gear is what I enjoy the most about the old fights.

[grm9]

9 minutes ago, Well-met said:

(they took away deerclops and bearger's AoE melee)

that isn't remotely related to ANR bosses

10 minutes ago, Well-met said:

this request makes no sense considering klei is directly moving away from this

that's why i'm asking them to add some more bosses like that because many people liked them and a lot of people that don't just repeat stuff that others said or expect wrong stuff from them e.g. baby mode dark souls fights instead of puzzles, hopefully more people'll realise that the bosses are good too

[Quadratordo]

More complex bosses whose mechanics can be countered in different ways, with more avenues opening up the more skilled the player(s) is? That'd be lovely; a fresh breath of FW is very much due.

[Gi-Go]

Can people elaborate? Fuelweaver dosen't count he is special and one of a kind.

How exactly are old bosses better than new ones? 

[grm9]

26 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Can people elaborate? Fuelweaver dosen't count he is special and one of a kind.

How exactly are old bosses better than new ones? 

they're puzzles with many solutions and require thought to kill them instead of forcing you to fight them the same easy and usually optimal way as all characters, there are also hard and fun ways to fight some of them e.g. minimal gear FW, x1 work multiplier toad with torch, enraged dfly etc.

[chirsg]

Frostjaw made an effort to integrate work into the fight. Mining ice walls to evade the charge is a step away from just dodging. 

[Jimothywastaken]

i do like the simpler bosses like daywalker and ancient guardian but when it comes to actual raid bosses they should 100% be designed in the same way the anr raid bosses were handled 

[lowercase skye]

4 hours ago, grm9 said:

there are also complaints about being forced to cheese BQ because most strats are easy to do but the point of the fight is that it's a puzzle,

The "point" of Bee Queen, on a design level, is to bring in 4 Wolfgangs and tank her. I think the sentiment of "bosses shouldn't be so easily kite-able because that becomes the dominant strategy" is very true and I agree to an extent, but fixing this would not be by trying to make bosses "more like ANR bosses", because the things we as a community like about ANR bosses are entirely contrary to their design.

[Guille6785]

3 minutes ago, finn from human said:

The "point" of Bee Queen, on a design level, is to bring in 4 Wolfgangs and tank her. 

proof:

[Primalflower]

10 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

proof:

check out the first few seconds of this clip. These klei streams were not archived as any sort of effort at all in that field existed like starting with the webber rework thanks to the dear Mikagut, so unfortunately there is little concrete we can truly point to. But to be sure, as people who were like, around to see it, language like this was all over the place in the showcases of the a new reign raid bosses. Im not pulling anything out of my ass when I repeat that bee queen & toadstool were meant to be killed in a few minutes by just group effort of 5-6 players.

[Mike23Ua]

Download and play a mobile game called Dungeon Slashers, this is a RogueLite with a very difficult boss laying at the end of each and every Dungeon Floor.

But these “Bosses” While fighting them can be very unfair the first few times they perform an attack and you die to it, they have a PATTERN, A Pattern that can be learned and then fought against No hit flawlessly, wink wink nudge nudge…

Thing is though, even though that game is a super punishing RogueLite, enemies give clear visual cues of where their attacks are about to attempt to hit you. (Google The Foreboder) 

It’s not quite like DSTs, where somewhere in the middle of the fight Klauses stomach randomly rips open and he unfairly lounges forward toward you when you CLEARLY weren’t prepared for, or expecting that.. you’d been fighting his other form on repeat for the past 15 minutes, why would it suddenly change without warning?!

Then to make that even more of a joke, should the player happen to panic when this new lounge forward thing starts happening, and they bonk one of his deer to accidental death instead, he Enrages and becomes damn near impossible to fight.

I think that under the circumstances, old DST bosses should have the same kind of scripted fight behaviors that newer bosses are getting.

Easy to learn, dodge, and defeat fighting patterns, same as Dungeon Slasher.

[lowercase skye]

23 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

proof:

If you've been in the community for any time at all you should know how difficult it is to get "proof" of things said on Klei streams and observed through active updates that happened years ago (in this case, 6 years ago.) I would love if I could somehow clip a Klei stream that got deleted 6 years ago or recap scattered update threads and community responses and such, but unfortunately that is borderline-impossible. That being said, here's an archived video of the first Bee Queen kill ever recorded:

https://web.archive.org/web/20201110211344/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5jyRPm-fvE

Getting the video itself to play is a whole task (uBlock origin to get rid of the log-in prompt, then zoom out and fullscreen the video to see it properly), so here's a picture:

My metric of "4 Wolfgangs" was off, I will admit, but the point is the same: the design of Bee Queen was to hold F for a few minutes with as many players as you could get together. They're called raid bosses, come on. This idea that ANR bosses were some masterful puzzle to be figured out with 1-2 players is a very recent idea that paints some of the (at the time) most controversial content in the game in the most flattering light possible, when the reality is that these bosses were made to be tanked with the very simple combat mechanics with 3-6 players, with a very simple extra action such as targeting Grumble Bees or chopping some sporecaps in-between. The plethora of strategies we have for soloing them now are a result of people getting creative with the tools years and years later: it was widely considered impossible back in 2016 to solo Bee Queen without a tentacle trap!

The forums are no longer frequented by most of the people who played actively back then, but most anyone from such times would raise their eyebrows at the idea of Bee Queen not being designed to be tanked by a server of people.

[Guille6785]

1 minute ago, finn from human said:

If you've been in the community for any time at all you should know how difficult it is to get "proof" of things said on Klei streams and observed through active updates that happened years ago (in this case, 6 years ago.) I would love if I could somehow clip a Klei stream that got deleted 6 years ago or recap scattered update threads and community responses and such, but unfortunately that is borderline-impossible. That being said, here's an archived video of the first Bee Queen kill ever recorded:

https://web.archive.org/web/20201110211344/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5jyRPm-fvE

Getting the video itself to play is a whole task (uBlock origin to get rid of the log-in prompt, then zoom out and fullscreen the video to see it properly), so here's a picture:

My metric of "4 Wolfgangs" was off, I will admit, but the point is the same: the design of Bee Queen was to hold F for a few minutes with as many players as you could get together. They're called raid bosses, come on. This idea that ANR bosses were some masterful puzzle to be figured out with 1-2 players is a very recent idea that paints some of the (at the time) most controversial content in the game in the most flattering light possible, when the reality is that these bosses were made to be tanked with the very simple combat mechanics with 3-6 players, with a very simple extra action such as targeting Grumble Bees or chopping some sporecaps in-between. The plethora of strategies we have for soloing them now are a result of people getting creative with the tools years and years later: it was widely considered impossible back in 2016 to solo Bee Queen without a tentacle trap!

The forums are no longer frequented by most of the people who played actively back then, but most anyone from such times would raise their eyebrows at the idea of Bee Queen not being designed to be tanked by a server of people.

glermz killed bee queen with 3 people so the design of all the raid bosses is to be killed with 4 wolfgangs? what?????

[Primalflower]

1 minute ago, Guille6785 said:

glermz killed bee queen with 3 people so the design of all the raid bosses is to be killed with 4 wolfgangs? what?????

me when i dont read or respond with anything meaningful to elongate the conversation

[lowercase skye]

1 minute ago, Guille6785 said:

glermz killed bee queen with 3 people so the design of all the raid bosses is to be killed with 4 wolfgangs? what?????

read my post again

[Frashaw27]

4 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

Im not pulling anything out of my ass when I repeat that bee queen & toadstool were meant to be killed in a few minutes by just group effort of 5-6 players.

Nothing in this clip tells that either of them intend to be killed in a mere couple of minutes by getting the max number of players and beaming them down with Wolfgangs. All they said was "it's not intended to be fought solo" which is an entirely different sentiment which still rings true to day. You have to use some advanced techniques like burning the trees or hitting them with the weather pain or chopping them with moon glass axes while the boss is frozen/asleep, all things that would be easier to pull off/unnecessary if you were doing it solo. Even if you were refencing the old mechanic of where Toadstool would leave the fight after a few minutes, that still wouldn't really apply because a) Bee Queen never had a mechanic like that to my knowledge and b) that idea was also largely scrapped which would mean that they went back on their decision and supports that Klei wanted these, atleast on some level, to do doable solo.

32 minutes ago, finn from human said:

The "point" of Bee Queen, on a design level, is to bring in 4 Wolfgangs and tank her.

The point of Bee Queen is to have a boss that summons beater minions that are a consistent part of the fight, nothing in the bosses forces you to tank. There are ways, albiet difficult, to properly dodge Bee Queen altogether and there is more ways to properly deal the minions then... ignoring them entirely. You can freeze them, you can juke from them using a high enough speed boost to get some alone time with the queen, you can sleep them, you can get your army to counter hers, ect. That's what people mean they said they like ANR bosses, it's that the bosses are significantly tougher but also had more creative solutions to deal with their gimmicks. I'm not going to hate on the Nightmare Werepig and the Lunified bosses, but they do lack an amount of creativity on par with the others, which I feel is fine but it does get tiring if EVERY new boss is like that. I think what Jimothywastaken was saying is on the right track. Have a some of these more open in the world bosses like Werepig to have a more linear style while having bosses you have to go out of your way to summon having more intensive gimmicks that require the player to use a more broad idea of their game knowledge.

3 minutes ago, finn from human said:

first Bee Queen kill ever recorded

 This doesn't really prove anything. I don't think that bees were also intended to completely counter Crab King if you have your boat right, but here we are with that exact same thing playing out. Just because the initial solution was to simply tank them doesn't inherently mean that idea was to also tank them. I will always find strategy's that innately rely on getting an absurd amount of things to throw at a boss to be outlier to balance because anything can be negated if you have enough numbers, so of course a strat where you send people at a boss to act as meat shields would work, but again there is nothing implying that it was the intended design.

9 minutes ago, finn from human said:

The forums are no longer frequented by most of the people who played actively back then, but most anyone from such times would raise their eyebrows at the idea of Bee Queen not being designed to be tanked by a server of people.

 I don't really get your point here, just because people didn't want to experiment that suddenly makes some of the ways to deals with them and the base design ideas irrelevant? There is also the point that thought the years we've both been given new tools, an entire roster rework, and even whole new characters to combat bosses so it's natural to expect that  somethings, like how a raid boss is usually challenged, would also change over time.

[Porkus]

31 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

m not pulling anything out of my ass when I repeat that bee queen & toadstool were meant to be killed in a few minutes by just group effort of 5-6 players.

Toadstool was reworked in less than a week though, and this clip only talks about toadstool and clearly they backed up on their design choices in regards to that considering he got changed so much and so quickly

[Primalflower]

12 minutes ago, Frashaw27 said:

Nothing in this clip tells that either of them intend to be killed in a mere couple of minutes by getting the max number of players and beaming them down with Wolfgangs. All they said was "it's not intended to be fought solo" which is an entirely different sentiment which still rings true to day.

the fact that they're showing off old toadstool and calling her a dragonfly-esque boss as well as a raid boss gives the impression that all of these bosses are in the same bracket. This is important to consider when we think of how old toadstool had insane mechanics and a 5 minute timer that was fundamentally impossible to achieve with 1 wilson wielding dark swords and nigh impossible until like 4, is the sort of thing that was called a raid boss. All of these bosses are designed in such a way to heavily encourage several players, not just the bare minimum, and toadstool happened to accomplish this in a stricter, and thereby more explicit fashion than the others.

12 minutes ago, Frashaw27 said:

that idea was also largely scrapped which would mean that they went back on their decision and supports that Klei wanted these, atleast on some level, to do doable solo.

This is a point where above others I would really want the fog of argument/wanting to win a debate to clear and for genuine discussion or rather explanation to occur. I do not think that a boss being doable solo means much of anything for what the "intended", or rather encouraged path is. I think that the toadstool nerf was a sign that they wanted for the player to be able to defeat them in a sort of edge case scenario, but largely the boss was still incredibly geared towards several players, with the fight getting much more manageable once more people were there to get damage in.

It is also worth noting that Bee queen was described in the same way and only got harder as the fight continued to exist, only receiving things like the honey trail later. So I really think that the language of raid boss is valuable here as a tell that the intended route, is, of course, a raid with several players (not just 2).

[lowercase skye]

[Guille6785]

9 minutes ago, Frashaw27 said:

Nothing in this clip tells that either of them intend to be killed in a mere couple of minutes by getting the max number of players and beaming them down with Wolfgangs. All they said was "it's not intended to be fought solo" which is an entirely different sentiment which still rings true to day.

adding to this that this was referring to OG Toadstool, a boss that was physically impossible to do in true solo (no minions) without a permasleep exploit since it would flee in 5 minutes; this would get changed not even 5 days later to a version of the toadstool that is pretty much what we have now, so what this video actually tells us is that when Klei did design a boss that couldn't be done solo they immediately scrapped it, and not only did they remove the time limit, they reworked the entire fight to be more solo friendly

I'd also like to point to this post by Joew confirming that ANR was designed while taking solo players into account 

 

 

[Primalflower]

what is happening here is that it was discovered that you can technically bring a canoe into the ocean and live while having fun due to the thrill of it all and thereby this it is being decided that this was how the ocean was meant to be traversed this way, as opposed to like, any sort of ship