In your honest opinion, is Wurt strong or weak?

[Jakepeng99]

57 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you could try to do BQ 1st/after ruins since you only need a few blue shrooms for them if you don't kill clockworks, since their loot is mostly worthless

blue shrooms ig

Idk this just seems really elitist at this point. Do it this specific way my way, very fast this route. Blue mushrooms are also good but sleeping is turning the basic food you have into hp and sainity. 1 meatball would heal 127hp and around 70 sainity, which is faster that scavenging for blue mushrooms which only respawn in rain.

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Idk this just seems really elitist at this point

if you can't do that it's fine, but then specify that we're talking not about what'd be most efficient, but something that an average player could do

3 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Blue mushrooms are also good but sleeping is turning the basic food you have into hp and sainity. 1 meatball would heal 127hp and around 70 sainity, which is faster that scavenging for blue mushrooms which only respawn in rain

you could get some from blue mushtree forest for until you get jellybeans or use a beefalo, since wurt doesn't have a damage multiplier anyway

[Sacco]

i'm going to say something controversial, Wurt is probably (alongside maxwell) the best character in the game.

With her i always manage to "craft" the merm king and guards' houses and rush lunar in the first autumn.

After that she becomes just unstoppable.

She has a lot of small perks here and there which make her even better.

#nerfwurt

[grm9]

26 minutes ago, Sacco said:

With her i always manage to "craft" the merm king and guards' houses and rush lunar in the first autumn

assuming that you're trying to compare her to maxwell in terms of how quickly she can do stuff, by around which day do you have most bosses (at least FW, CC, BQ, dfly, klaus, toad etc.) dead as wurt, out of curiosity?

Edited April 26 by grm9

[Gashzer]

16 minutes ago, grm9 said:

assuming that you're trying to compare her to maxwell in terms of how quickly she can do stuff, by around which day do you have most bosses (at least FW, CC, BQ, dfly, klaus, toad etc.) dead as wurt, out of curiosity?

No but she takes less effort to kill bosses when set up than maxwell does. Maxwell require more skill... needing skill is a downside.

And it doesnt take as long to setup wurt as people says it does.

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Maxwell require more skill... needing skill is a downside

he doesn't, the only remotely skilful fights you could do as maxwell are t2 shadow stuff BQ and FW, but BQ isn't even really hard, you just get punished for messing up more since getting all grumbles back into 1 pile if they get out is harder than just casting shadow prison on 1 creature, you should also specify if we're talking about the most that you can achieve as a character or something that an average player can easily do, but even then, an average player could easily do all fights with t2 shadow stuff as maxwell except maybe FW

Edited April 26 by grm9

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, Sacco said:

i'm going to say something controversial, Wurt is probably (alongside maxwell) the best character in the game.

With her i always manage to "craft" the merm king and guards' houses and rush lunar in the first autumn.

After that she becomes just unstoppable.

She has a lot of small perks here and there which make her even better.

#nerfwurt

Making 30 merm warrior houses should be a speed run category.

 

Also i think she needs reworked not nerfed. Merm guards essentially being a win condition is kinda broken, but they are just raw spam and damage so need more interesting combat potenfial.

[Gashzer]

2 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Making 30 merm warrior houses should be a speed run category.

 

Also i think she needs reworked not nerfed. Merm guards essentially being a win condition is kinda broken, but they are just raw spam and damage so need more interesting combat potenfial.

Dont even need 30, 15-17 merms guards kill bee queen fine by themselves. Once you can jellybean spam with marble suit you are invincible at this point.

[Sacco]

8 hours ago, grm9 said:

assuming that you're trying to compare her to maxwell in terms of how quickly she can do stuff, by around which day do you have most bosses (at least FW, CC, BQ, dfly, klaus, toad etc.) dead as wurt, out of curiosity?

i'm not saying that she is better than maxwell, he can do the same as wurt but in way less time (he literally needs 5 seconds to summon his puppets)

talking about bosses... i kill them slowly, but take in consideration that in two years i manage to kill fuelweaver and cc.

[Mysterious box]

10 hours ago, Sacco said:

i'm going to say something controversial, Wurt is probably (alongside maxwell) the best character in the game.

With her i always manage to "craft" the merm king and guards' houses and rush lunar in the first autumn.

After that she becomes just unstoppable.

She has a lot of small perks here and there which make her even better.

#nerfwurt

I'd have to disagree here simply due to the high level of inconvenience she places on the player compared to other follower characters but if they solved that aspect I feel like she'd be a really good character even if she only got minor additions on her skill tree.

As for the inconveniences it mainly comes from her interactions with followers as she is the only character currently who has to micromanage her followers without the tools to do so.

First is accessibility of her merms since they can't change shards the convenience they offer when it comes to traveling is limited as you'll need to put far more thought into shard changes than any other character with many just opting to use them purely for fighting or home tasks.

Next is management of merms you cannot call merms out of their homes or pull them out of fights or disassembling things you don't want them in meaning you feel a great sense of helplessness in these situations with the only option being running away before irreparable damage is done.

To add on to this point a previous update made it so follower merms run away from her which was done to help people get merms out of the way when building but this came with the consequence that taking advantage of her group recruitment ability nearly impossible before getting merm guards who have a massive recruitment range by default.

Finally while more of a minor thing she has no perk to aid in her collection of fish despite fish being a somewhat important part of her character is inconvenient considering they don't stack and if you want to make use of the merm king's loot table or normal merm huts you'll need to do a lot of fishing or merm murder.

Again I don't feel like Wurt is a bad character or anything but she is the least convenient of the follower characters by a landslide and it really can drag down the experience on a character who already asks players to put in a ton of work to access her full potential.

[Notecja]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

snip

Somehow I agree with that. Also compared to Wendy or even Maxwell (who have half of their perks served on silver plate, probably Webber too), people playing Wurt really need to know what to prioritise to make her shine.

[Echsrick]

wurt has been indirectly nerfed by klei because they added monkeys to the ocean and....just no

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Notecja said:

Somehow I agree with that. Also compared to Wendy or even Maxwell (who have half of their perks served on silver plate, probably Webber too), people playing Wurt really need to know what to prioritise to make her shine.

It's not really even a matter of priorities it's more so Wurt is very lacking in terms of quality of life compared to Maxwell, Webber, Wendy, and Wormwood which is extra problematic because she's the only one who uses the traditional follower system of keeping track of loyalty.

[somethin]

How is managing merm followers hard? You feed them, they follow you for a day or so, they deal so much damage and are super tanky they mob up anything that doesn't spam high damage aoe or have specific mechanics and you dismiss them by murking one then murder a fish. Playing Wurt once she set up everything requires 0 IQ.

[Catuna_]

i wanna start this off by saying that if i was in charge of the game's balance i would cut wurt's merm flortifications cost by half lol
20 logs and 2 spears per loyal merm guard is an insane ask imo, every character has access to bunnymen for bee queen and can summon the phase 2 twins on her to have her killed and it makes (it's more difficult to set this up with a monster character but webber has spiders), merms start to look a lot less impressive in what they can do
bunnymen do not kite and attack more frequently, which means that despite their lower base damage they actually deal more damage per second
merms do not follow you into the caves, and even if they did rock lobsters are cheap to hire and extremely effective
merms mining is outdone by bearger (not character specific) and snurtle slime for opening stone fruit
while merms are immune to boss roars i rarely found this useful for combat compared to webber's spiders since nurse spiders will sustain the armies after and the webby whistle gives you a lot more control (and if spiders die too quick to a boss then so will merms)
wurt's stat boosts when a merm king is alive are just stat bloat which contributes nothing save for hunger (which is just convenience)
wurt's lack of access to meat dishes is really frustrating, not in the sense that it's unplayable or anything but she's locked out of the best dishes as a result, her lack of need for a crockpot actually just comes down to veggie dishes not being great (with a few exceptions), although it's not really nearly as bad as warly's restrictions
she just ends up being very unimpressive in my experience, until you have spent enough time to have an absurd amount of merms; except that if you give any character that amount of time they will also feel absurd
being unable to trade with pig king is a bit annoying, and the merm king trades are atrocious in comparison making her the only character to have to go out of her way to be able to trade with him,not a huge deal also but it bothers me how bad merm king's trades are
i think every character is at least okay at worst but if we were to compare loyal merm guards' cost to reward they are bad
i avoided mentioning maxwell because it's maxwell
i ended up swapping to wickerbottom just so i can read on tentacles on a boat and sink it so that i didnt have to go through the slog of killing tentacles myself because it was so slow even with wild merms

Edited April 27 by Catuna_

[skile]

9 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I'd have to disagree here simply due to the high level of inconvenience she places on the player compared to other follower characters but if they solved that aspect I feel like she'd be a really good character even if she only got minor additions on her skill tree.

As for the inconveniences it mainly comes from her interactions with followers as she is the only character currently who has to micromanage her followers without the tools to do so.

First is accessibility of her merms since they can't change shards the convenience they offer when it comes to traveling is limited as you'll need to put far more thought into shard changes than any other character with many just opting to use them purely for fighting or home tasks.

Next is management of merms you cannot call merms out of their homes or pull them out of fights or disassembling things you don't want them in meaning you feel a great sense of helplessness in these situations with the only option being running away before irreparable damage is done.

To add on to this point a previous update made it so follower merms run away from her which was done to help people get merms out of the way when building but this came with the consequence that taking advantage of her group recruitment ability nearly impossible before getting merm guards who have a massive recruitment range by default.

 

Again I don't feel like Wurt is a bad character or anything but she is the least convenient of the follower characters by a landslide and it really can drag down the experience on a character who already asks players to put in a ton of work to access her full potential.

Yeah, honestly I hope both Wurt and Webber get more control over their followers in their tree. Imagine how cool it would be to command a bunch of merms to chop your trees without having to use an axe. Even crazier idea, imagine if you could order different groups of merms to do different tasks easier, like, you 3 cut this forrest, while you 2 mine those stone fruit or something. But that's just my Pikmin inspired daydreaming at this point... 

9 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Finally while more of a minor thing she has no perk to aid in her collection of fish despite fish being a somewhat important part of her character is inconvenient considering they don't stack and if you want to make use of the merm king's loot table or normal merm huts you'll need to do a lot of fishing or merm murder.

I see no other solution, we obviously need fishermerms. 

Edited April 27 by skile

[Jakepeng99]

9 hours ago, Echsrick said:

wurt has been indirectly nerfed by klei because they added monkeys to the ocean and....just no

Why though? They made her stronger with bananas and reeds.

[Mysterious box]

7 hours ago, skile said:

I see no other solution, we obviously need fishermerms

There are several ways to improve this aspect without automating it with fisher merms. You could give Wurt a storage box that works like the bearger bin but only for fish, you could allow her to fish in ponds with just her bare hands, you could make her better with fishing rods. Or some other thing not that I'm against fishermerms but I don't think there's not other solutions to ease the tedium of fishing other than just making a follower do it.

[Echsrick]

6 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Why though? They made her stronger with bananas and reeds.

ok, you have fun dealing with like 5 enemies on a small circle that will give you a disease if you kill them wich makes you not wurt while they alsol destroy your boat

[skile]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

There are several ways to improve this aspect without automating it with fisher merms. You could give Wurt a storage box that works like the bearger bin but only for fish, you could allow her to fish in ponds with just her bare hands, you could make her better with fishing rods. Or some other thing not that I'm against fishermerms but I don't think there's not other solutions to ease the tedium of fishing other than just making a follower do it.

no no, there's simply no other option, we absolutely need fishermerms (/j) 

1 hour ago, Echsrick said:

ok, you have fun dealing with like 5 enemies on a small circle that will give you a disease if you kill them wich makes you not wurt while they alsol destroy your boat

Why would Wurt care though? Cause she needs some kelp early on? From my experience, it never takes enough time for monkeys to appear, if anything, it's better to look out for sharks. Even if you do encounter monkeys, Wurt can just jump off the boat anytime with no penalty and avoid them entirely. 

Like, don't get me wrong, monkeys can be a bit annoying, but I don't see how they'd be more annoying for Wurt than for the rest. Hell, you could even make a clever disguise if you're planning on fighting some, and use regular merms as Wonkey just as well, especially if the king is alive. 

[Echsrick]

5 hours ago, skile said:

 

Why would Wurt care though? Cause she needs some kelp early on? From my experience, it never takes enough time for monkeys to appear, if anything, it's better to look out for sharks. Even if you do encounter monkeys, Wurt can just jump off the boat anytime with no penalty and avoid them entirely. 

Like, don't get me wrong, monkeys can be a bit annoying, but I don't see how they'd be more annoying for Wurt than for the rest. Hell, you could even make a clever disguise if you're planning on fighting some, and use regular merms as Wonkey just as well, especially if the king is alive. 

there more annoying because wurt has to go out to the ocean to find kelp early on, and again with how they can just destroy things, dont matter if you can jump off or not, your boat is forfeit and depending how much you dit for the boat the greater the pain

[Popian]

On 4/26/2024 at 7:21 PM, Mysterious box said:

you cannot call merms out of their homes

This can be done by burning and extinguishing the home.

On 4/26/2024 at 7:21 PM, Mysterious box said:

she has no perk to aid in her collection of fish despite fish being a somewhat important part of her character is inconvenient considering they don't stack and if you want to make use of the merm king's loot table or normal merm huts you'll need to do a lot of fishing or merm murder.

2-3 (or more if you want more set and forget) Ocean Trawlers by your king are good for this. And considering that fish can be used to recruit merms you don't have to worry as much about them not stacking with an added bonus of maintaining loyalty (even better when you can reuse ocean fish with bins on shorter activities) of your remaining comrades until you bring them to your king for slaughter.

[Mysterious box]

5 hours ago, Popian said:

This can be done by burning and extinguishing the home.

I'm aware doesn't make it any less inconvenient.

5 hours ago, Popian said:

2-3 (or more if you want more set and forget) Ocean Trawlers by your king are good for this.

Also aware this is a option but you'd expect her to ease the process of fishing even more so when you consider you can't use trawlers on normal ponds.

5 hours ago, Popian said:

And considering that fish can be used to recruit merms you don't have to worry as much about them not stacking with an added bonus of maintaining loyalty (even better when you can reuse ocean fish with bins on shorter activities) of your remaining comrades until you bring them to your king for slaughter.

Much like the house burning I'm also aware of this but I feel exploits shouldn't be considered a solution for very inconvenient game design even more so since your average Wurt isn't aware of most of these things. Your already expected to do a lot to reach her potential compared to other survivors that having all these problems and inconveniences added on top of that can lead people to wonder why they aren't just using any of the other follower characters instead as far less work is involved for equal or greater rewards.

[Reecitz]

22 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I'm aware doesn't make it any less inconvenient.

Also aware this is a option but you'd expect her to ease the process of fishing even more so when you consider you can't use trawlers on normal ponds.

Much like the house burning I'm also aware of this but I feel exploits shouldn't be considered a solution for very inconvenient game design even more so since your average Wurt isn't aware of most of these things. Your already expected to do a lot to reach her potential compared to other survivors that having all these problems and inconveniences added on top of that can lead people to wonder why they aren't just using any of the other follower characters instead as far less work is involved for equal or greater rewards.

They don't want their precious game/character to change. 

[Popian]

4 minutes ago, Reecitz said:

They don't want their precious game/character to change. 

I don't mind changes, I'm simply presenting the options to be helpful as it was worded in a way that did not show awareness of them and it could change one's mind. Now we know that they're perceived as lackluster.