Thanks Klei for tackling lureplant/spiderden boss blocking bug.

[Gashzer]

I know its hard to go against the majority of forum users and patch these old established bugs. So thanks for doing it Klei.

These bugs make for a fair amount of content in many platforms and guides for DST.

All the how to "cheese" guides always annoyed me because lets say you never played dst or heard about dst, its more than likely your first exposure to DST could be watching people bug out some end game boss instead of beating it fairly using cool items like the brightshade staff. And that just looks really bad on the game, the devs and us the community.

I do hope ancient fuelweaver, dragonfly and toadstool get some QoL updates to make the fights flow better.

The wall cheese (and all pathfinding bugs in general) for dragonfly needs to go too but only if she gets a rework.

Anyway i hope you guys continue to patch old established bugs like voidwalking, Klei don't be scared of the community, alot of us agree with you polishing dst even if our voice isn't as loud as the "if you don't like bugs simply just don't use it" crowd.

[Catuna_]

If you search for "Fuelweaver guide" then the top results are guides on how to do it properly. The other guides are clearly stated to be cheese. It genuinely doesn't look bad for any game to have someone showcase how to exploit its mechanics, this happens in every game ever. And it's also not like the devs didn't just put gunpowder in as a mechanic to blow by any one boss that looked at you funny, same result as cheesing it, looks just as effortless to a random viewer but a lot less creative.

Fixing the pathfinding "bugs" requires an immense amount of time and effort to fix something that's been the same since the game's release literally just to go "No, you can't play the game this way." to a sandbox game, while breaking an insane amount of farms for literally no reason other than forcing people to play one way. Linearity is the last thing a sandbox game should have, and I don't understand why people are so against having people play in a way that literally does not affect them.

If you're going to fix the bug then you should really address the issue beforehand, Klaus cheese exists but a lot of people prefer to fight him legit because he's a well designed boss.
Maybe void walking wouldn't be used if there was a better way to find the atrium that doesn't make you walk around the empty caves for forever. Maybe if the caves had more to them than they currently do it'd be a lot more bearable. Or maybe if there was better travel methods to explore the caves it'd be fine.
Complaining about features you literally do not have to use just makes the game worse for everybody. The game should be fun, making it more and more linear isn't fun.

[grm9]

at this point i'd take this sort of posts as personal insult, considering they literally translate to "you're unworthy to play"/"you shouldn't be allowed to play the way you want", it's funny how people ask to patch cheese and then complain that hard or puzzle fights are hard or puzzle fights and say that they should get nerfed

[Gashzer]

Unfortunately if you plan to play DST together with others then these bugs do affect you. I cant control others in muliplayer servers even friends from not using these bugs. Alot of people default to using the easiest/fastest/least resource intense way to kill bosses i.e bugs/cheeses if applicable. Remove the temptation is the best way.

[00petar00]

I guess we should celebrate every time a game is made easier or a new cheese is discovered now.

So many people are happy that a method to kill a boss is removed when they aren't forced to use it. 

Its not like a new player will see a cheese and quit the game because of that, it is a sandbox game and all the players who play similar games know that there are options like that left intentionally by the devs so we have more choices.

Didn't klei say that lureplant thing will be reverted for pre-rift bosses (including FW)? Nothing seems to have changed yet and all they did was patch spider dens.

Post-rift bosses are so boring for that exact reason, you are very limited in the ways you can kill them. 

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Unfortunately if you plan to play DST together with others then these bugs do affect you. I cant control others in muliplayer servers even friends from not using these bugs. Alot of people default to using the easiest/fastest/least resource intense way to kill bosses i.e bugs/cheeses if applicable. Remove the temptation is the best way

and how does them doing that negatively affect you? most cheeses are less efficient than fighting the boss properly so you could do whatever they did using cheese faster than them, especially considering that most people that use cheese aren't that good at the game so doing stuff faster than them won't be an issue, someone doing something using cheese faster than you is usually your problem, and why should everyone play the way you want them to on every server?

[00petar00]

25 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Unfortunately if you plan to play DST together with others then these bugs do affect you. I cant control others in muliplayer servers even friends from not using these bugs. Alot of people default to using the easiest/fastest/least resource intense way to kill bosses i.e bugs/cheeses if applicable. Remove the temptation is the best way.

Maybe if so many people are using a cheese/exploit there is a reason for it and you are an exception so you shouldn't complain or host your own server.

[chirsg]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

I do hope ancient fuelweaver, dragonfly and toadstool get some QoL updates to make the fights flow better.

 

This is doublespeak for "easier"

No. Bosses shouldn't be made easier. We can have both cheese and clean fights. Compromise just infuriates both sides. The community as a whole went along well having whatever method suited them.

[_zwb]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

alot of us agree with you polishing dst

Klei isn't polishing DST here, they removed the band aid solution(the cheese) for poor boss fight designs but didn't fix the boss fights, the overall experience is worse(for now), why can't they just remove the cheese and fix boss designs in the same update...

[Gashzer]

24 minutes ago, grm9 said:

and how does them doing that negatively affect you? most cheeses are less efficient than fighting the boss properly so you could do whatever they did using cheese faster than them, especially considering that most people that use cheese aren't that good at the game so doing stuff faster than them won't be an issue, someone doing something using cheese faster than you is usually your problem, and why should everyone play the way you want them to on every server?

If boss cheesing was a rare occurrence i would otherstand but dfly wall cheese is the most common strategy. 

And tbh it annoys me when bad players cheese bosses to obtain loot they dont deserve.  Clearly i wouldnt be posting about it if it didnt negatively affect me lol

If a boss is so hard that alot of players need to cheese it then that boss needs reworked. The uproar about ancient fuelweaver for example is proof that he needs more Qol done to the fight like ancient guardian. Klei have been fixing controller controls thank god so thats a general step in the right direction.

Just now, chirsg said:

This is doublespeak for "easier"

No. Bosses shouldn't be made easier. We can have both cheese and clean fights. Compromise just infuriates both sides. The community as a whole went along well having whatever method suited them.

Yeah make them easier exactly. Remove cheese, make them easier with some new fun mechanics. 

I believe Mike mentioned the introduction of a "hard mode" i think this would be a good idea. This can be a straight up hp and damage boost for all mobs and bosses with weather effects doing more damage and effect you harder. Larger hunger and sanity drain. That way you can keep ur difficulty.

2 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Klei isn't polishing DST here, they removed the band aid solution(the cheese) for poor boss fight designs but didn't fix the boss fights, the overall experience is worse(for now), why can't they just remove the cheese and fix boss designs in the same update...

They are polishing but i agree they need to fix the boss designs.

[00petar00]

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

If boss cheesing was a rare occurrence i would otherstand but dfly wall cheese is the most common strategy. 

If majority of the players are doing something it means that there is a reason for it and who are you to tell someone else how they have to play the game?

8 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

And tbh it annoys me when bad players cheese bosses to obtain loot they dont deserve.  Clearly i wouldnt be posting about it if it didnt negatively affect me lol

That is pure jealousy and it isn't really affecting you in a way that would be acceptable for there to be changes. The only argument that I really can partially agree with is that someone can use a cheese to kill a boss faster than a player preparing for the fight and if this is the issue just make the boss respawns faster, why do we need to wait 20 days?

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

If a boss is so hard that alot of players need to cheese it then that boss needs reworked. The uproar about ancient fuelweaver for example is proof that he needs more Qol done to the fight like ancient guardian. Klei have been fixing controller controls thank god so thats a general step in the right direction.

That would annoy all of the players that enjoy the fight being difficult but will be the result of lureplant cheese removal. You can't have both worlds, either let everyone have fun like they did until now or remove lureplant and nerf the boss and no one is going to be happy.

 

[grm9]

13 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

And tbh it annoys me when bad players cheese bosses to obtain loot they dont deserve

so you're an elitist and not worth listening to, got it 

[Mike23Ua]

Here’s the absolute hilarious and sad truth:

 in the very same patch update that mentions the removal of Lureplant & Spider Egg Cheese, Klei also mentions their tireless efforts to improve the quality of the fight using a gaming controller.

Actually that’s not that funny..  it’s actually kinda heart breaking <\3

[grm9]

16 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

If a boss is so hard that alot of players need to cheese it then that boss needs reworked. The uproar about ancient fuelweaver for example is proof that he needs more Qol done to the fight like ancient guardian. Klei have been fixing controller controls thank god so thats a general step in the right direction

ancient guardian is one of the most boring bosses in the game except DS and RoG bosses and i wouldn't want FW to become anything similar in comparison to it, why ask for boss nerfs and removing cheese? use cheese if the boss is too hard and either learn how to kill it normally or let people who enjoy killing it keep doing that instead of making the fight easy enough for it to become boring, similarly to AG 

[chirsg]

6 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I believe Mike mentioned the introduction of a "hard mode" i think this would be a good idea. This can be a straight up hp and damage boost for all mobs and bosses with weather effects doing more damage and effect you harder. Larger hunger and sanity drain. That way you can keep ur difficulty.

9 minutes ago, _zwb said:

a "Hard Mode" already exists and no one plays it. I, and apparently many others don't like difficulty swatches of this nature. It's literally in the setting. I strongly disagree with making bosses easier in and of itself. There's a gold standard when it comes to boss killing and taking that away just makes it all cheap. I'm experiencing other indies and dst has an outstanding charm of a lot of tools, tactics and methods all being viable in a pinch. When you start to pick apart things that work is when you begin to lose your way.

We already have a strange crisis that I can't really wrap my head around where things "ADDED", not even changed but "ADDED" are being used as an example of klei losing their way. I disagree with that because additions aren't really such instances where the status quo is really rocked to it's core to the point where everything breaks in the name of the general horizontal progression on this game. But when you do start to change things that have worked for the entirety of it's existance, namely the FW fight is when things start to get weird.

No. Not everyone is able to kill fuelweaver clean. It's a hard game. No one expects anyone to be able to swish past the fight on their first go. It's why practice and accumulation of game knowledge to overcome this hurdle is valuable. It's valuable because it's a mark to tell you how far you've come. It's a task you're rewarded with. And if someone can't do it and they cheese it, that's fine too. We're not really playing against one another, but this really odd attitude of lowering the bar of achievement just to make people feel good inside is hollow. 

I want people to earn their wins if they choose to pursue them, but at the same time, let them enjoy the spoils if they can't. 

[grm9]

16 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

And tbh it annoys me when bad players cheese bosses to obtain loot they dont deserve

i can kill FW normally, without weather pains/brightshade staff etc. but i still use cheese because it takes less time and i've already done the fight the fun way, so you want to make me unable to have fun that way for no reason

18 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah make them easier exactly. Remove cheese, make them easier with some new fun mechanics

they're already very fun, but some people either fight them the unfun way or think that they're too hard, you're ruining fun of people who used cheese and fun of people who fought the boss normally to have fun because it was hard

[Gashzer]

Just now, 00petar00 said:

If majority of the players are doing something it means that there is a reason for it and who are you to tell someone else how they have to play the game?

Yeah the reason is the boss is too hard or the fight is badly designed or tedious. Hence revisit boss design and remove cheese. The new bosses have been all perfect.

2 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

That is pure jealousy and it isn't really affecting you in a way that would be acceptable for there to be changes. The only argument that I really can partially agree with is that someone can use a cheese to kill a boss faster than a player preparing for the fight and if this is the issue just make the boss respawns faster, why do we need to wait 20 days?

It is pure jealousy. Maybe i want the little kick of joy when i know myself or the people im playing with killed the boss legit not for someone to setup some automated farm/cheese for them.

4 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

That would annoy all of the players that enjoy the fight being difficult but will be the result of lureplant cheese removal. You can't have both worlds, either let everyone have fun like they did until now or remove lureplant and nerf the boss and no one is going to be happy.

Dont balance the game for the 3000+ hour people, balance it for the 10+ hour people and add a simple hard mode for the 3000+ hour people doesnt need to be like the uncompromising mode just straight stat changes for things. Easy peasy.

[00petar00]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

It is pure jealousy. Maybe i want the little kick of joy when i know myself or the people im playing with killed the boss legit not for someone to setup some automated farm/cheese for them.

You are playing the wrong game, it will always be possible.

I can always use spices, combat character or set up catapults in FW arena and keep adding houndius shootius after each kill.

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Dont balance the game for the 3000+ hour people, balance it for the 10+ hour people and add a simple hard mode for the 3000+ hour people doesnt need to be like the uncompromising mode just straight stat changes for things. Easy peasy.

I don't think that anyone under few hundreds of hours would be able to reach fuelweaver, I don't know where you are getting 10+ hours from. Caves are very scary to new players that want to focus on survival and  have enough to deal with on the surface.

FW fight is difficult but the difficulty likes in juggling items, it is not that fun but quite a few people like the fight so it shouldn't be changed, allow people to cheese it with lureplant and all is good. If someone wants to beat the boss normally, they can and another player can use lureplants If they can't do that.

Hardmode would be a possibility but its not happening or klei would've taken that route years ago, why would they change their mind now?

[Mike23Ua]

11 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

You are playing the wrong game, it will always be possible.

I can always use spices, combat character or set up catapults in FW arena and keep adding houndius shootius after each kill.

I don't think that anyone under few hundreds of hours would be able to reach fuelweaver, I don't know where you are getting 10+ hours from. Caves are very scary to new players that want to focus on survival and  have enough to deal with on the surface.

FW fight is difficult but the difficulty likes in juggling items, it is not that fun but quite a few people like the fight so it shouldn't be changed, allow people to cheese it with lureplant and all is good. If someone wants to beat the boss normally, they can and another player can use lureplants If they can't do that.

Hardmode would be a possibility but its not happening or klei would've taken that route years ago, why would they change their mind now?

Why would they change their mind now? I don’t know brother you tell me…

Klei used to have fairly punishing character downsides, now downsides are near non-existent..

Klei used to say that DST was a No-Hands Holding game, now it has a bunch of Loading Screen Tips, Free loots from Briar Hounds, A Scrapbook & literal on screen Way points to find points of interest.

My point is that the game is changing, for better or for worse…

And if there’s already a toggle to take 40% less damage or 40% more damage from all sources, there’s a very high likelihood that future content updates will extend upon that with both “casual” & “hard mode” settings like this.

As many people who actively toggle wildfires to OFF, there’s still a world Gen setting to have those happen Lots More Often.

And.. If you want to play DST like it was DS (where you only get one life & dying deletes your world) there’s now a world Gen setting for that too.

My point here is your logic of “why change it now.” Has clear cut evidence of being flawed. They HAVE been & continue to change it.

[00petar00]

7 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Klei used to have fairly punishing character downsides, now downsides are near non-existent..

That is your own opinion, most downsides could be ignored and it isn't fun to be limited like that.

7 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Klei used to say that DST was a No-Hands Holding game, now it has a bunch of Loading Screen Tips, Free loots from Briar Hounds, A Scrapbook & literal on screen Way points to find points of interest.

Now you don't need to use wiki or youtube to learn the game, isn't it a good direction klei is taking at least partially since they seem to be set in stone about post rift content being as linear as possible for some reason.

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And if there’s already a toggle to take 40% less damage or 40% more damage from all sources, there’s a very high likelihood that future content updates will extend upon that with both “casual” & “hard mode” settings like this.

It seems to me that klei is in the middle.

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

As many people who actively toggle wildfires to OFF, there’s still a world Gen setting to have those happen Lots More Often.

Wildfires is a terrible mechanic, I do sometimes have it turned on but I often make my main base in caves since rifts were added so it doesn't really matter much.

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

My point here is your logic of “why change it now.” Has clear cut evidence of being flawed. They HAVE been & continue to change it.

If klei planned to have a hardmode they would have done it years ago, why do you think that something will change now? Most players accept default settings as they are and don't bother making the game easier or difficult by tweaking them.

Unless they keep going as it is with rift content as the hardmode and disable every single option so that you can only kill bosses as "intended" by devs but that makes them so much more boring compared to all of the previous bosses.

[Pure Brilliance]

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

I know its hard to go against the majority of forum users and patch these old established bugs. So thanks for doing it Klei.

These bugs make for a fair amount of content in many platforms and guides for DST.

All the how to "cheese" guides always annoyed me because lets say you never played dst or heard about dst, its more than likely your first exposure to DST could be watching people bug out some end game boss instead of beating it fairly using cool items like the brightshade staff. And that just looks really bad on the game, the devs and us the community.

I do hope ancient fuelweaver, dragonfly and toadstool get some QoL updates to make the fights flow better.

The wall cheese (and all pathfinding bugs in general) for dragonfly needs to go too but only if she gets a rework.

Anyway i hope you guys continue to patch old established bugs like voidwalking, Klei don't be scared of the community, alot of us agree with you polishing dst even if our voice isn't as loud as the "if you don't like bugs simply just don't use it" crowd.

Not all cheese is annoying, but honestly, using lureplants to easily defeat bosses crosses the line in my opinion. However, I don't think Klei has completely blocked this method. You can use Pillar instead. Just using stone pillar allows you to utilize lureplant cheese. When using it to Fuelweaver or Klaus, it consumes a fair amount of rocks, but in this case, you can diligently gather dreadstone and build the Dreadstone pillar. I think this patch is a wise balancing move by Klei. (Thank you Klei. Your balancing is fabulous.)

In conclusion, cheese is still available, but you have to pay the price.

[JazzyGames]

5 hours ago, _zwb said:

why can't they just remove the cheese and fix boss designs in the same update...

Exactly what they plan to do. From V2C:

Hey guys, seems to be some confusion, but to clarify, we do intend to fix these bugs and exploits eventually.  For the older bosses, they were not a focus of this update.  When we have time, we want to address some of the issues with the old fights such as Fuelweaver before we unexpectedly remove some players' means of progressing past them.

[Gi-Go]

6 hours ago, Gashzer said:

I know its hard to go against the majority of forum users and patch these old established bugs. So thanks for doing it Klei.

These bugs make for a fair amount of content in many platforms and guides for DST.

All the how to "cheese" guides always annoyed me because lets say you never played dst or heard about dst, its more than likely your first exposure to DST could be watching people bug out some end game boss instead of beating it fairly using cool items like the brightshade staff. And that just looks really bad on the game, the devs and us the community.

I do hope ancient fuelweaver, dragonfly and toadstool get some QoL updates to make the fights flow better.

The wall cheese (and all pathfinding bugs in general) for dragonfly needs to go too but only if she gets a rework.

Anyway i hope you guys continue to patch old established bugs like voidwalking, Klei don't be scared of the community, alot of us agree with you polishing dst even if our voice isn't as loud as the "if you don't like bugs simply just don't use it" crowd.

Cildish take that noone can respect. Wanna know why? Because you are lying. You are lying to everyone including yourself that you care, when in reality you don't. You just want people to play your way because it makes you feel better about yourself. 

People with this opinion will always end up making a bunch of nonsense excuses and justifications for why it's a good fix for the game and not at all a solution to a problem that dosen't exist in the first place. This time it's "bugs make content and spoil game for newbies"? What is that crap? Do you really expect people to belive that you are concerned about beginners spotting lureplant cheese on youtube and then trying it out? Why on earth would you possibly care? 

This is nothing more than an ego battle. And i know that, because I used to had the save views about df wall cheese, which is so overused that most people never even tried fighting her without walls even once. And that upset me since I think she is a lot more fun without cheese. But then after some self reflection i realized that I actually could not care less even if 99.9% of players use walls on df, and was simply annoying people who want to play how they want to play, for no good reason. I don't like df walls - I don't use them. That's all there is to it. Their existence in someone else's world is absolutely irrelevant to me. 

If klei want to fix cheeses it's their choice I suppose, but I can't imagen anyone being happy about that choice other than loosers, who are genuinely happy when someone who plays game "incorrectly" is upset. Try minding your own business maybe? 

[Gashzer]

45 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Cildish take that noone can respect. Wanna know why? Because you are lying. You are lying to everyone including yourself that you care, when in reality you don't. You just want people to play your way because it makes you feel better about yourself. 

People with this opinion will always end up making a bunch of nonsense excuses and justifications for why it's a good fix for the game and not at all a solution to a problem that dosen't exist in the first place. This time it's "bugs make content and spoil game for newbies"? What is that crap? Do you really expect people to belive that you are concerned about beginners spotting lureplant cheese on youtube and then trying it out? Why on earth would you possibly care? 

This is nothing more than an ego battle. And i know that, because I used to had the save views about df wall cheese, which is so overused that most people never even tried fighting her without walls even once. And that upset me since I think she is a lot more fun without cheese. But then after some self reflection i realized that I actually could not care less even if 99.9% of players use walls on df, and was simply annoying people who want to play how they want to play, for no good reason. I don't like df walls - I don't use them. That's all there is to it. Their existence in someone else's world is absolutely irrelevant to me. 

If klei want to fix cheeses it's their choice I suppose, but I can't imagen anyone being happy about that choice other than loosers, who are genuinely happy when someone who plays game "incorrectly" is upset. Try minding your own business maybe? 

You are completely correct ofc i post for ego why else would anyone post here? 

Doesnt make me wrong. If a newbie needs to cheese to kill a boss because either the fight itself is tedious (toadstool) or requires lots of equipment juggling which is hard to do on console/controllers (ancient fuelweaver) then that boss needs a overhaul. 

I want klei to improve the game in a way that i like. I am being 100% selfish in my posts and what i want klei to change but that doesn't mean you can just dismiss my points because of my bias.

I try to present my selfish suggestions from a logical position. 

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

the fight itself is tedious (toadstool)

do it with a torch and a ham bat then

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

requires lots of equipment juggling which is hard to do on console/controllers (ancient fuelweaver)

wrong, you can do it with only armor, weapon, healing, sanity food and insanity food

8 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I want klei to improve the game in a way that i like. I am being 100% selfish in my posts and what i want klei to change but that doesn't mean you can just dismiss my points because of my bias

if you're going to ruin others' fun, we can