Opinions on reworking/improving Wilson's torch tree.

[Anis5240]

As Wilson's skill tree nearing a year after its completion, I, among others who play Wilson do believe the torch tree is very underwhelming compared to the transmutation and beard trees.  I certainly won't be surprised if the majority of players who played Wilson after a while will mainly chose all of the transmutation tree, then either of the beard branches and storage, then any of the affinity.

Thus, as much as Klei said they won't change anything on his skill tree, here's hoping that a poll perhaps can convince them to change their mind. After all, we already saw how the uproar on Wilson's Masquerader hair went by.

So, cross your mind and hope to science that we can win their change of mind! 

[zhangsheng]

Although the vote was overwhelming, I believe Klei will still not adopt it because they want to maintain Wilson's mediocrity. But I still have an opinion to say.

I think Wilson's torch should be an affinity skill. As an item that existed in the early days of DS and a symbol of challenging the darkness, it should not be abandoned just on the first day.

For example, the affinity for darkness can make the torch have a bone helmet like effect. When Wilson picks up the torch, he can dispel shadow creatures when Wilson is mentally disturbed.

As a symbol of enlightenment, the affinity of the moon, Wilson picked up the torch and gave Wilson and his teammates a buff to restore sanity (similar to Wendy's urn. The closer Wilson got, the stronger his recovery).

[Anis5240]

30 minutes ago, zhangsheng said:

I think Wilson's torch should be an affinity skill. As an item that existed in the early days of DS and a symbol of challenging the darkness, it should not be abandoned just on the first day.

I do like the idea that the torch could be an affinity skill but remember, the alignments possibly will be much bigger that what Klei had planned for now. And besides, the bone helm effect was already part of Woodie's Shadow Wrangler perk, where shadow creatures ignore him when he's in a wereform.

For Wilson to have a copy of someone's ability (aside from everyone's 10% more/reduced damage)... it doesn't seem that right for me. That said, I do hope the actual Tragic Torch will come in hand someday...

 

[Echsrick]

the torch stuff sure does feel like some sort of "trap" of how.....not so good it is...i mean dont willow not have skills that are litteraly the same but for her lighter instead? and for her it makes sense given she is the pyromaniac and all that other fire spell stuff

[Gi-Go]

Don't care.

What I do care about is how tedious it is to use Wilson late game when you wanna convert resources. I think alchemy engine should work for Wilson like sawhorse works for logs. Only issue is marble has 2 transformations but I mean, has anyone ever used marble to get cutstone ever? 

[Anis5240]

1 hour ago, Echsrick said:

the torch stuff sure does feel like some sort of "trap" of how.....not so good it is...

It does feel like that, especially with 7 points needed to allocate for a discount lantern that has nearly the same radius and durability of the lantern. Seven. Out of the 15 points given. Literally almost half of the allowed points to have.

Does the 3 allocated levels for either radius or durability worth for a throwable torch, and only for torches? I personally don't think so.

Even if the torch tree and the beard tree have the same design, the beard tree is fine for me since I prefer to have it grow according to its default timer.

17 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Don't care.

I do believe I said this poll is for the torch tree discussion only. If you don't like the transmutation tree, it's on you.

I really enjoy the transmutation tree, outside of the usual meat-morsel and twig-log transmutes. With the countless rocks gotten from both petrified trees and stone fruits, it's good for the excess rocks to be turned into marble/moon rocks. Or to supply Walter players with marble rounds from those rocks.

Beefalo wool-beard hair is also great in my opinion, especially since I rarely chose the beard growth perk. I can just shave some beefalo and have an early meat effigy. Of course, I won't mind if he has the option to mass craft them, as you suggested.

[Gi-Go]

57 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

I do believe I said this poll is for the torch tree discussion only. If you don't like the transmutation tree, it's on you.

My bad then. 

So uh torch skills huh. They are bad but I mean so are all the other Wilson skills. I use them don't see what else I'd use. 

 

[Notecja]

Torch tree skill in Wilson is straight bad. It needs to be addresed. Devs, please don't be deaf

[Mike23Ua]

Why did Klei go with torches? Like I get that it’s a signature symbol of Wilson, seen in a lot of art work, but come on man it’s damn lazy and uninspiring…

Klei wanted the Torch Toss Ability, and sure.. that’s uhh fun, But Klei in my opinion has done it so poorly.. 

Like I mean okay I’ll just get to the point, Wilson is a Gentleman Scientist, he is not a FAILED Gentleman Scientist, no Scientist has ever reached great success without first a few failures after all..

Wilson has built an alchemy lab, Wilson has created “stuff” before, he’s even seen in his character portrait pouring a vail of unknown chemicals down a birds throat…

So Wilson of all characters in the game should’ve been very familiar with all sorts of powders (you kinda have to be to be doing chemistry and alchemy)

What this should’ve translated to gameplay wise was a Craftable powder Wilson could “upgrade” existing items with.

Such as- Throwing combining it with a torch to make it burn brighter and last longer, throwing it in campfires, Lanterns, etc.

Heck I would’ve even gone so far as to let him know how to “upgrade” gunpowder with a more potent concoction.

I think the Torch skill tree is fine as it is, and doesn’t need any changes.. but those skills invested in that tree should’ve extended to campfire durations, lantern durations etc…

Why? Because Wilson is a gentleman scientist who knows Chemistry & Alchemy, he can Transmute the games resources seemingly out of thin air… but he doesn’t know how to create a strong powder to boost the effectiveness of fires? Gimmie a break here Klei..

[Anis5240]

31 minutes ago, Notecja said:

Torch tree skill in Wilson is straight bad. It needs to be addresed.

Truly. Klei expected every player to use/have different skill tree builds on the same character yet that literally didn't happen. Instead most players will go for the best perks (like Wormwood's Lunar Guardian perks or Woodie's Weremoose Mastery).

For Wilson players, what other options can they choose? The full transmutation tree takes 10 points but that is fine since some of the crafts are great and useful. The rocks-cut stone-marble-moon rock transmute was lengthy, sure, but still had a decent exchange rate; especially combined with what I said earlier with the countless rocks from petrified trees and stone fruits.

The beard insulation and growth perks too are fine in my opinion, since Wilson's "mechanic" since DS era was just his beard. The beard storage may be silly, but I like having it.

The torch tree... yeah, it's just sad to look at. Just because he's the vanilla character he shouldn't be limited to only torches as part of the tree. Klei can just make it into a general "Lights" tree that can affect other lights sources (but not Enlightened Crown for example).

I get that Wilson having/holding a torch is almost like a tradition in almost of their arts/shorts, but hey! He actually wore a miner hat for the Forgotten Knowledge trailer! AND the only one to have it! The one to know and have precaution against the darkness of the caves! Why can't Klei utilize that? Wilson was canonically the most experienced survivor among the cast, why won't he thought of changing the light radius/durability of other light sources too?

The torch tree being limited to only torches is what's stopping people to keep choosing it for their next playthroughs.

[Anis5240]

41 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

So Wilson of all characters in the game should’ve been very familiar with all sorts of powders (you kinda have to be to be doing chemistry and alchemy)

What this should’ve translated to gameplay wise was a Craftable powder Wilson could “upgrade” existing items with.

Ooohhh, I do like the idea, especially when used alongside the Mad Science Lab. Outside of the three useful crafts (lunar tree, the repel sanity loss from bats jumpscare, and living logs), barely any of the crafts there are looked upon.

Wilson can perhaps enhance a potion made via the Lab for many things; such as item durability, light sources durability and many more! Like Wigfrid had the Weaponizing Warble for lowering weapon durability loss, Wilson can perhaps do the same to regular items. (Although, I do have a feeling this exact idea may be for Winona's skill tree.)

41 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

those skills invested in that tree should’ve extended to campfire durations, lantern durations etc…

Indeed. As I said, it's such a waste for 4 or 7 points are only applicable to torches.

[kehun]

It should be changed to Light Skill not torch. When it comes to light source torch is useless after day 6 because of lamp/miner hat. Lamp/Miner hat/moggles should last  e.g 30% more and it should be brighter. This wouldn't hurt new players or even advanced players while using this skill

[Anis5240]

1 hour ago, kehun said:

Lamp/Miner hat/moggles should last  e.g 30% more and it should be brighter.

This feels quite decent, but the moggles already show the full vision of the area (albeit in night vision mode which was well... not exactly the best lol). I think it would be rather cool if the miner hat has the same toggle as the lantern, which can be turned on/off while on the ground.

Even as I have the Enlightened Crown as day-to-day light source, I still bring along both the miner hat and the lantern wherever I go, in case the weather/ruins will mess up my time there; especially when fighting bosses.

[Yuuko]

I was really hopeful for the torch tree when it was first announced, but the end result is severely lacking.

I don't like the poll options of combining durability / radius b/c it needs to cost points, and I think that is a fair amount of points IF the end result is good.

Also the option to apply the radius bonus to other light sources feels bad...  First off b/c its a torch tree and other things aren't torches, but also b/c the other light sources are already good and very generic.  "Lantern but better" when you're already using lantern anyway?  Nah, I'd much rather something that made torches actually good and changed up Wilson's play style.

So here is my thoughts -

Duration for 3 points should let Wilson held / tossed torches burn significantly longer, at least 10x base torch rate.  Normally torches last 75 seconds, Wilson's will last 750 seconds.  That is over a full day of light.

Reduce light radius to only 2 skills, with the same final effect.  This would make it similar to Willow's lighter perk which I feel is fair at only 2 points.

Now add another locked torch skill next to torch toss that lets you refuel the torch with any fuel source.  Anything you could put in a firepit can be applied to the torch to renew its durability.

Done - imo this sets up Wilson to use torches as a primary light source throughout the game.

[Anis5240]

24 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Reduce to only 2 skills, with the same end effect for the second point.  This would make it similar to Willow's lighter perk which I feel is fair at only 2 points.

Yes, the main gripe I had with the torch light radius/durability perks is that they each have 3 points yet the effects are barely noticeable. I personally don't mind Willow's lighter perk since y'know, it was a lighter and not a torch.

24 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Now add another locked torch skill next to torch toss that lets you refuel the torch with any fuel source. 

This idea if I remember correctly was suggested by @mkemal23 in one of the Wilson threads (especially the "It's over Wilsonbros" post if my memory serves well ). I think it would be neat if we can give a cut grass or a twig to refuel the torch, and not wasting time crafting another torch even if the materials of making torches are cheap. Any fuel source may be rather too much however since even rot/compost/manure can be a fuel source. Or glommer goop. Or slurtle slime.

Perhaps a decent, yet plausible amount and type of fuel sources should be allowed for the torch refuel.

[Echsrick]

ok but what if instead of torch its...."medicine" or something? giving new player perspective kinda, i would imagine that healing items like healing salves are like...stronger when used by him and crafts that do damage to you are alsol reduced, wich is the telltale heart but most importand the meat effigy wich is like kinda a wilson item in a way and takes health...so he can make one for less damage or something...i think that would be better then torch

[Anis5240]

5 hours ago, Echsrick said:

ok but what if instead of torch its...."medicine" or something? giving new player perspective kinda, i would imagine that healing items like healing salves are like...stronger when used by him

Oh, that certainly would be cool! And quite in line with what we know of Wilson before he became a gentleman scientist!  We have plenty of evidence that Wilson used to dabble in medical science (perhaps possibly even studied as a surgeon) and I certainly think his feats of making the meat effigy, the telltale heart and the booster shot should be recognized more. In the Forge, he could revive other characters 3 times faster and in the Gorge, the accompanying skin set (Victorian) showed him as a physician.

Maybe a reduced craft needed for healing items a la the construction amulet could be great for new players, while for experienced players it's more of good convenience, just like the transmutation tree.

That said, the honey poultice craft was decently cheap already so I wonder if it can be changed to just needing 1 honey and 1 papyrus..

[Cheggf]

I, and many other Wilsons I've seen, think that the transmutation tree is the underwhelming one since it's basically just megabaser crap. The torch tree is way better, it makes the early game a lot more convenient and allows you to continue using torches instead of a lantern if you want since they're no longer a terrible item.

If the torch branches were merged then you may as well remove the skill tree entirely, there'd be so few options you pick from that you'd be able to get essentially every single thing that affects regular gameplay. There'd be absolutely zero skill tree variety, everyone would take all the beard perks, everyone would take all the torch perks, and everyone would take the alchemy perks that affect people other than megabasers.

If the torch skills affected other light sources you'd have the same thing, where everyone takes the torch skills because they're clearly just miles better than the alchemy skills. But now you'd also have ridiculous light sources where everything other than a torch lasts ages and enables fullbright mode with its light reaching far past the bounds of your screen, and torches would go back to being useless.

[Pomato]

It's fine. Not a lot of people would play as Wilson anyway.

Beginners would spend the first 10 minutes as him and that would be it.

Why bother?

[Anis5240]

2 hours ago, Cheggf said:

There'd be absolutely zero skill tree variety, everyone would take all the beard perks, everyone would take all the torch perks, and everyone would take the alchemy perks that affect people other than megabasers.

This exact thing is what happens to many players. As I said, after new players trying Wilson for a while, they will realize how there are better light sources aside for the torch, thus ditching it for the transmutation and beard trees.

The same goes for other characters with skill trees too. Klei expected people to do different skill builds yet it doesn't happen. Wilson's transmutation tree is QoL sort of things, barely affecting the game and decent in my opinion.

Meanwhile for others (Wormwood, Woodie, Willow and Wigfrid) their entire character got upgraded. The new Brambleshade armor for example, is exclusive to Wormwood. These characters got countless combat perks, yet all Wilson had for combat-wise is the affinity perk.

2 hours ago, Cheggf said:

But now you'd also have ridiculous light sources where everything other than a torch lasts ages and enables fullbright mode with its light reaching far past the bounds of your screen, and torches would go back to being useless.

It's why I proposed if the light radius/durability should extend to other light sources, because the one single special perk of the torch tree - the torch toss - was basically a discount lantern. With the Horizon Expanditor from the Scrappy Werepig soon, I sure would like to be able to see a whole screen during nighttime while holding a lantern or from the thrown torch itself, especially during sailing where I can see if danger is up ahead of time.

1 hour ago, Pomato said:

Why bother?

Why do I bother with this whole poll? Because I care for this character.

Before this whole skill tree shenanigans, Wilson is a decent character pick due to him not having any radical upsides or downsides. Just a basic character with the beard for easier meat effigy and winter insulation.

But now with the skill trees, and Klei planning for the endgame of DST, 5 out 6 characters who got the skill trees had game-changing combat perks. And due to this, other characters will get their "rework 2.0" while Wilson was stuck with "rework 1.0". Heck, when I first heard of his rework, I certainly did not expect for it to be a skill tree.

An important character story-wise now was left in the dust in the current game progression and your pessimistic talk certainly didn't help things. Why bother coming here?

[Cheggf]

Many players is not all players. 

[The Starver]

2 hours ago, Pomato said:

It's fine. Not a lot of people would play as Wilson anyway.

Beginners would spend the first 10 minutes as him and that would be it.

Why bother?

I am a certified beginner, but I am a contradiction to this. Wilson is my main, despite having less than 50 hours playing him.

3 hours ago, Cheggf said:

think that the transmutation tree is the underwhelming one since it's basically just megabaser crap

I am also a contradiction to this. I've never made it past 1st Winter, but I use the transmutations frequently. Why? Because they're cool, and I like them. The same goes for all of my decisions in games. I decide to do things based on whether it's cool and I like it. It's only a game, after all.

[Cheggf]

6 minutes ago, The Starver said:

I am also a contradiction to this. I've never made it past 1st Winter, but I use the transmutations frequently. Why? Because they're cool, and I like them. The same goes for all of my decisions in games. I decide to do things based on whether it's cool and I like it. It's only a game, after all.

You are agreeing with me by disagreeing with me. I said that the current skill tree allows more diversity with the builds. I think that the alchemy line is stupid so I don't get it, but you like it so you get it. If the torch tree cost half as many points and affected all light sources and was just really overpowered you'd almost definitely move 3 points off your least favorite alchemy things (e.g. the gem line) onto the torch line and have a homogenous skill tree identical to every other Wilson.

[The Starver]

6 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

You are agreeing with me by disagreeing with me. I said that the current skill tree allows more diversity with the builds. I think that the alchemy line is stupid so I don't get it, but you like it so you get it. If the torch tree cost half as many points and affected all light sources and was just really overpowered you'd almost definitely move 3 points off your least favorite alchemy things (e.g. the gem line) onto the torch line and have a homogenous skill tree identical to every other Wilson.

Oh, I get it now. Sorry. I didn't completely understand, and yeah, I agree with you. I do think there should be more options, though, just not combining the torch skills.

[mkemal23]

While I do Agree that some changes could make torch tree much better, I don't think it could be saved without a proper rework which klei already said they won't plan to do.

It's a tree that focuses one single item. And It does its job terribly. The only time you really feel like they are doing something is when you do a scienceless ruins rush. And thats it.

The only way you can save this tree is by buffing it so torches with all 7 skills would be an alternate version of lantern. Yes, I know that giving characters straight better items are not a healthy way to balance the game but I genuinely don't think there is any other way.  And even then, eventually in endgame, torches will be completey useless and you will have no option but pick to those super fun transmutaion skills for the rest of your playthrough. 

This is why I love Beard skills. They aren's super strong or anything but they help you at every stage of the game. Even after hundereds of day, I always change my skills when it's summer or winter becuase of the beard tree. Thats why I'm one those people who think "Torch" tree should have been a "Light" tree instead.

But at least people are slowly realising that making a entire skill tree for a single item just beceuse "Haha It's the torch holding Don't starve guy!!" is not a good way to handle a skill tree. The poll results are pretty owerwhelming so maybe devs will change their minds about it. One man can dream.