How bad do you think a global nerf on armor would be?

[dois raios]

19 hours ago, Arcwell said:

• Switching from Night armor (95%) to Thulecite crown (90%) = you receive 2x as much damage
• Switching from Thulecite crown (90%) to Football helmet (80%) = you receive 2x as much damage
• Switching from Football helmet (80%) to Grass suit (60%) = you receive 2x as much damage

When 97,5% damage reduction? XD

[lenship2]

1 minute ago, dois raios said:

When 97,5% damage reduction? XD

dreadstone armor + shadow affinity + night armor + garlic against a shadow aligned enemy gets you to 97.1% 

[Frashaw27]

I think this is a really bad idea ngl because it doesn't solve the problems the Klei tried to solve with the planar system, but instead makes the rest of the game worse while also not solving why planar damage was implemented in the first place.

First off, entities that would even matter to have planar defense and damage will always be relatively small. Even if there is gonna be biomes and tons of bosses after a while, the portion of the game that has planar mechanics is always going to be relatively dwarfed when compared to when it is. This means that doing said nerf is going to be making a significant portion of the game worse in cost of making some things that some players may never even conceive of seem better. There is a point that there should be some things balanced for the late game (which planar mechanics do, but I'll discuss that in a different paragraph) but there is also the point that due the game's nonlinearity, simply balancing everything around it can be extremely risky and sometimes harmful, like how I see it in this case.

My other major point is that the solution you brought up wouldn't solve the conundrum of armor damage reduction but rather just kicks it down the road for later. You may say that planar mechanics restricts choice, but so would having a flat scale of ever increasing numbers. There's a reason almost nobody would use a spear on a raid boss under normal circumstances and that's because it doesn't hit that 50 damage threshold that weapons currently ride or die by. With the way that scaling works, you'd eventually reach a 100 damage threshold that would then make all previous weapons not worth it and so on and so forth. This means earlier fights are easy, which isn't what Klei wants. A simular thing would also happen to armor. As shown with the bone armor, sometimes no matter what buffs you have on an armor, some people will stick with whatever is the highest for their goal. This means that simply having better armor based on a scaling reduction means that you don't add more choices but rather make all previous ones worse. Te current planar system has a few kinks, but it does what it needs to do by allowing for end game content to exist while not pissing on the previous balance. Whatever or not you like that conclusion is up to you, but suggesting nerfs like that won't make the issues of planar mechanics go away, but rather just exacerbate what they were attempting to solve with them.

[Cheggf]

5 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

That's a slip-up, not an indication of intention for anything.

Look what happened with "Super Earthquake" Boulders and Acid Rain aggressiveness after community general reaction - they got hard nerfed.

What do you mean slip-up? They kept introducing enemies with ridiculous bonkers damage per hit, now they've implemented a mechanic that bypasses armor entirely. I think it seems clear that they don't like how insanely protective the 95% armors are and are trying other things to make them less invulnerable.

[MondayNight]

3 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

What do you mean slip-up? They kept introducing enemies with ridiculous bonkers damage per hit, now they've implemented a mechanic that bypasses armor entirely. I think it seems clear that they don't like how insanely protective the 95% armors are and are trying other things to make them less invulnerable.

For late-game post-Rifts, when you opt in a "DST Hard Mode", that's ok. Weren't people such as yourself posting about "game needs a hard mode" in past? 'grats, wish granted. Sorts of. Because always is "sorts of" not "exactly as".

But general armor nerf from day-1? No, ty!

[Cheggf]

1 minute ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

For late-game post-Rifts, when you opt in a "DST Hard Mode", that's ok. Weren't people such as yourself posting about "game needs a hard mode" in past? 'grats, wish granted. Sorts of. Because always is "sorts of" not "exactly as".

But general armor nerf from day-1? No, ty!

I have always advocated against a hard mode, I don't know what you're talking about. If 95% armor is problematic because it absorbs too much damage and prevents things from being threatening then it's always been problematic, not something that should be delegated to only a few specific mobs. 

[MondayNight]

3 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

I have always advocated against a hard mode, I don't know what you're talking about. If 95% armor is problematic because it absorbs too much damage and prevents things from being threatening then it's always been problematic, not something that should be delegated to only a few specific mobs. 

Maybe. "95% Armor protection" was a thing since DS. More-so, there armor stacks up, so you ended up with 1-5 hp from face-tanking boss-level hits. And still people write that's "a truly uncompromising game". Meanwhile DST, with its buffed enemies (especially the bosses), and lack of stacking is... problematic. If certain people "fly by" in DST is not because there's a problem with that armor or not, is because they played game for thousands of irl hours and mastered it way beyond entertainment and immersion. For such people uber-efficiency and math became primordial. Now seems some feel the need to kick the ladder behind them and have current casuals suffer more just because for some advanced experienced players DST isn't what it was when they themselves were starting to play. Or because are salty Planar component in late-game "Hard Mode" was introduced as opposed to Walter's Bee Allergies 2.0, but general.

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

I fail to see why game "needs" such a nerf. Aside having beginners and especially mid-tiers gamers die more - why would you want that? To discourage casuals from transitioning to recurrent players?! I doubt this would impact advanced experienced players in any meaningful way aside annoyance of having a nerf just for $hit&giggles. How does such a nerf make game more fun and engaging?

For most people dying = failure = discouragement of engaging further if too often it occurs.

Well, I can't answer whether the game "needs" a nerf or not, but a common defense of planar damage piercing armor is that it restores some of the risk.  Basically it goes like 95% armor is too powerful, giving 20x effective health.  For a boss to deal meaningful damage (ie 2-3 shot a character) it would need its damage ramped up to equally insane values.  Therefore we introduce armor-pen that basically guts player defense to restore the risk.

[_zwb]

I can just write a mod nerfing all armour, yous can try it out and see if it's good.

[Hungry French]

Man. Global nerf on armor they have already done. And they did it terribly.

Do you want DST to get even worse?

[MondayNight]

5 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Well, I can't answer whether the game "needs" a nerf or not, but a common defense of planar damage piercing armor is that it restores some of the risk.  Basically it goes like 95% armor is too powerful, giving 20x effective health.  For a boss to deal meaningful damage (ie 2-3 shot a character) it would need its damage ramped up to equally insane values.  Therefore we introduce armor-pen that basically guts player defense to restore the risk.

That, theoretically, is for end-game (post-Rifts "Hard Mode" some people advocated for - I for one didn't; I don't care about that, DST is sufficiently good for my entertainment), not early-game. Early-to-mid game is mighty fine. Bulk player-base, even if they have 95% armor protection, still gets destroyed (check community Endless pubs for a reference - there you don't have solely hectic noobs & trolls). Meanwhile the "unicorn" experienced advanced players that allegedly "never get hit" (in their solo offline worlds) are not a benchmark, they don't matter in general balance since, allegedly, they never die, never make a mistake, min-max, have no lag and/or "rubberbanding", and uber-streamline every minute detail for the perfect mathematical experience (bonus: they console-commands practice every boss N times to perfection). I "hear" some love that. I for one never encountered such a person in all my over 8k irl hours of pub dives, not even at self-descriptive level. Yet the internet tells me they exist - and in the realm of possibilities, a certainty. Still, once more: not the player KLei should balance their game around, to further incentivize nerfs from day 1.

I don't know why you are so adamant on armor nerfs, but even these very forums stats on your poll show ~70% of people atm of this comment are against it. And here probably just single digits minute percentages from recurrent players visit for posting. Imagine how well received would be a global nerf update by bulk player-base. How glad they will be when 2x more strained just because. "Games need to be more uncompromising, you aren't dying frequently enough, more failure needs to find you".

[Uedo]

I wouldn't like a global nerf to armour. 

Not sure why, just no ty

[HellHeater]

2 hours ago, _zwb said:

I can just write a mod nerfing all armour, yous can try it out and see if it's good.

noooo that doesnt work!!!!

everyone else has to suffer!!!!!

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, _zwb said:

I can just write a mod nerfing all armour, yous can try it out and see if it's good.

I've thought about it.  There are a few things I think might improve the overall experience in DST that I wouldn't mind working in as mods - but I've never worked with lua, and mostly play solo.  idk if I'd be into making a mod only for my own use and idk who else would use it.

[grm9]

5 hours ago, Cheggf said:

But it requires no science to craft, so it's great for people who are getting into fights before science. 

most people don't need armor for fighting early mobs like pigs and spiders and body slot is occupied with magi if you're doing scienceless ruins so there isn't much use for it if you're fighting pre-science either

 

On 11/13/2023 at 11:23 PM, Arcwell said:

I strongly disagree with the idea of a 10% (or any percent) flat nerf to all armor because it would disproportionately harm armors with higher damage absorption.
Here is the impact on health values a 10% nerf would have:

• Night Armor (95% -> 85%) = you receive 3x as much damage as before
• Thulecite crown (90% -> 80%) = you receive 2x as much damage as before
• Football helmet (80% -> 70%) = you receive 1.5x as much damage as before
• Grass suit (60% -> 50%) = you receive 1.25x as much damage as before

For comparison, here's what changing armors looks like currently:

• Switching from Night armor (95%) to Thulecite crown (90%) = you receive 2x as much damage
• Switching from Thulecite crown (90%) to Football helmet (80%) = you receive 2x as much damage
• Switching from Football helmet (80%) to Grass suit (60%) = you receive 2x as much damage

And here's what changing armors would look like if there was a flat 10% nerf across the board:

• Switching from Night armor (85%) to Thulecite crown (80%) = you receive 1.33x as much damage
• Switching from Thulecite crown (80%) to Football helmet (70%) = you receive 1.5x as much damage
• Switching from Football helmet (70%) to Grass Suit (50%) = you receive 1.66x as much damage

In my opinion, the current 2x differences in health are great because they balance the armor's other features. Night armor has insane damage absorption but has durability issues and sanity penalties. Thulecite crown has good damage absorption and forcefield, but requires ruins materials. Football helmet has okay damage absorption and basically only requires you to hammer a pig house. Grass suit has bad damage absorption and requires you to hold space for a few seconds. If you change the damage absorption tiers so that they have less impact changing between armors, the higher-tier armors suddenly look much less worthwhile because their downsides don't reflect the new damage absorption values.

if that's the primary issue the abs values could just be changed to make the player take twice as much damage as they do rn to keep the proportions, although i wouldn't support the idea in that scenario either until avoiding damage becomes optimal and fun for all fights 

[arubaro]

3 hours ago, Hungry French said:

Man. Global nerf on armor they have already done. And they did it terribly.

Do you want DST to get even worse?

dst armor is more balanced and intuitive than messy ds armor 

[Theukon-dos]

Personally, I do think that armor needs nerfed. But not becuase it's too strong, but rather because the gap between "Unarmored" and "basic armor" is way, way to high.

 

Me? I'd cut all armor defense AND enemy damage in half. In theory, not only would this make the game easier for new players to get into without also making it easier for experienced players, it would also make low/no defense builds a LOT more viable. So if you where to, say, run Magi+Enlightened Crown, then Deerclops would only deal a quarter of your HP instead of half of it.

 

Obviously other things would need to be changed to account for this, but that's all just semantics in the grand scheme of things.

[Antynomity]

12 hours ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

$nip

I see a lot of people not realising that an armor nerf isn't just a 1 dimensional change that only serves to make the game 'harder', less damage absorption = less durability being used every hit, it punishes the 'glass' cannon characters into making them actual glass cannons, makes so you need less armor crafted but more healing prepared instead.

 

If klei wasn't scared of doing impactful changes to the core game in the 'core game enhancement' updates, maybe we wouldn't need the band-aid solution like planar to keep stats of weapons and armour in check.

[Antynomity]

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Bawk snip

Yup, I'd drink to a change like that, could you imagine a world where not wearing high defense armour is worthwhile? The potential for 'super low defense but powerful perk' armour would be there.

[Antynomity]

9 hours ago, _zwb said:

I can just write a mod nerfing all armour, yous can try it out and see if it's good.

Please do that if you can, I'd try it out for sure.

[Baark0]

I would like to at least see it tested, but I think it'd be beneficial when it comes to getting players to try out now equipment. Below is some quickly thought up changes I made because I'm bored lol

Spoiler

Grass suit: 60% > 50% - Mainly just to reduce the baseline of armor since this is the weakest in the game 

Football/battle helm + Log Suit: 80% > 70%

Bramble Husk: 80% > 75% - Costs 2 living logs so it shouldn't be as bad as football/log suit

Thulecite Crown + Suit: 90% > 80% - This actually makes the shield passive better since the crown takes less damage which means more shield activations

Cookie Cutter Cap: 70% > 85% - An item this out of the way to get really should provide more than 15% wetness protection. If the shell amount goes down to 2 I think this could honestly be kinda worth using

Night Armor: 95% > 90% 

Marble Suit: Unchanged. This is meant to be a stand still and tank armor, and is somewhat time consuming to farm. Not sure what you'd do about Wolfgang though

Snurtle Shell Armor: Unchanged

Scalemail: Unchanged

Dreadstone Armor + Helmet: 90% > 80% 

Brightshade Armor + Helmet/Void Robe + Cowl: 80% > 85% - The goal here is to make it feel like you've actually achieved something by killing CC/AF and dealing with the rifts. 85% makes the rift armors better than the previous best no drawback armor (thulecite) and remains on par with a strong, albeit somewhat tedious to get helmet (cookie cutter cap). This should give a feeling progression in your world, as before good armor was hard to come by or had a negative effect, but now you can just make it and even repair it.

Beekeeper hat: 80% > 75% - Debatable if this even needs change since it's literally only used against the Queen Bee

Eye Mask: 80% > 70%

Shield of Terror: 80% > 75% - Only -5% here because twins are kinda hard and time consuming

Hardwood Hat, Bee Queen Crown, Bone Helm: 70% - 65% 

Shelmet: Unchanged - I think in this hypothetical version of the game, 90% protection should be reserved for very difficult to obtain/rare armor, or armor with downsides, but I can't justify it for Shelmet considering how tedious this item is to get. Sersiously, who is sitting there hitting a Slurtle (which has 1200hp) 2 times every ~4 seconds just for a 10% chance at getting the equivalent of a cookie cutter cap. Ideally the drop chance is increased and/or Slurtles become easier to kill, then it goes down to 85% protection.

[JustAFlower]

If you ask me, Armor in DS was buffer than the armor we have in DST, armor before could stack up the damage reduction, now not anymore. So the armor we have now, it's fine really. I don't see a nerf or a buff.

[Hungry French]

10 hours ago, arubaro said:

dst armor is more balanced and intuitive than messy ds armor 

They removed the armor stack. They could have made it balanced, but removed it. DELETED.
And they weakened the strength of the entire armor of the game, although it was not required.

These changes were made generally for PvP, not for co-op like fire nerf, etc.

Why is there no normal balance in co-op, and not an anchor in the form of PvP rebalance

3 hours ago, JustAFlower said:

If you ask me, Armor in DS was buffer than the armor we have in DST, armor before could stack up the damage reduction, now not anymore. So the armor we have now, it's fine really. I don't see a nerf or a buff.

Need rework. For both DS and DST

[arubaro]

4 minutes ago, Hungry French said:

They removed the armor stack

dont worry, is back with planar for some reason 

[Hungry French]

Just now, arubaro said:

dont worry, is back with planar for some reason 

Does this only work on the new super late game armor? Or for all the armor in the game ?