Wormwood's skill tree last prunning suggestions

[Evelo]

@Mysterious box @HowlVoid May I suggest moving to private messages for this discourse? If not sorry, will go back to my hole of excitement for the update.

[Creatorofswamps]

On 7/30/2023 at 7:08 AM, Copyafriend said:

Honestly i dont think we should have any more added, wormwood is already getting quite a number of powerful perks, three of which (assuming the bramble perk is going to be good, i’ll assume so) is already in that same tree, we dont want to make one branch too good, and we’re already getting almost all of his perks.

i just want to let it rest, the tree is good-enough tm

I am not inherently againdt any more suggestions or minor tweaks, but honestly, wormwoods new tree is PRETTY loaded, its gonna be unfair if it gets any better imho.

Very good words

[NexusMercer]

On 7/29/2023 at 7:07 PM, Sapientis said:

 

Plant Crafting Branch could include more Plant Crafts like generic Saplings, Grass Tufts or even Banana Bushes
(Wormwood's favorite food)

I totally agree with this. Wormwood can craft lunar saplings but cannot craft normal saplings, it is so weird. If it is twiggy tree world, how i can get the normal saplings?

1. wormwood can transform from normal berry bush to juicy berry bush and from juicy berry bush to normal berry bush, so I think it can be happened between normal saplings and twiggy tree.

2. the lunar saplings can get by lunar experiment(conducted at mad scientist lab in Hallowed night event) from normal saplings, but we cannot  get normal saplings from lunar saplings

[Sapientis]

To be honest I don't think Wormwood particularly needs much more than we know he's getting. The point of this topic was to suggest last little changes that would make sense and also bring more value to minor and underwhelming skills.

I personally think Seed Sleuth is a weak skill and you're forced to use 1 skill point on that - to be able to investigate a planted seed, some of Wormwood players won't even use it, partially because it's cumbersome (having to click each seed while it's been tended already). I suggested it should show their names on hover and I also believe it wouldn't hurt to combine this starting skill with Farmhand, which just widens Wormwood's tending radius when in full bloom and gives him slightly quicker picking of crops (which is still just barely useful overall) it makes sense for a farming character, but look: Willow, Warly and Walter all cook faster and they don't have to waste a skill point on that...

Adding Living Log Proficency would just be a little something, that could save up maybe 20-30 hp total during a ruins rush? Probably ~60 if using Dark Swords. If he wants to use Lightbugs he's going to lose much more anyway, so with current 15 hp cost per Lightbug he could save up some hp on Living Logs.

I'd still much rather have lower cost of Lightbugs than Living Logs:

• 20hp for potential 6800 damage is ok,
• 15hp for a small orbiting source of light that will die in 20 minutes or by any source of damage is a bit ridiculous (it barely makes sense for a normal character, who'd just eat a blue cap, but for Wormwood it's completely pointless), WX has permanent light radius similar to 3 Lightbugs for extremely cheap cost and 3 charges which can be acquired day 1 and will last forever unless wet or frozen (he can also get permanent moggles for free)

Providing more Plant Crafts wouldn't hurt anyone, suggested basic ones are abundant in most worlds and Banana Bushes can be easily amassed on the Moon Quay Island. It doesn't change Wormwood usual gameplan, that branch is only taken to decorate as cost of the crafts exceeds ability to craft a shovel and just gather plants from the world. If he's became a crafting station, it should have most of possible crafts in it.

Lastly, Skilled Self-Fertilizer is an extremely weak skill at the moment. It SHOULD affect other fertilizers to be applied quicker and it also could stack heal-over-time effects of fertilizers. I mention it as a reminder, but we don't know if devs did or did not touch other skills. If there is room for changes Skilled Self-Fertilizer and Lunar Cultivator II are skills that need to be buffed to remain impactful on Wormwood gameplay. Otherwise LC II will be just skipped until lategame and SS-F will be an unimportant progression skill like Seed Sleuth, Farmhand, Growth Spurts and Mushroom Masteries.

That's all from me.

Spoiler

 

P.S. referring to your argument about Woodie vs Wormwood
Woodie is a much stronger combat character than Wormwood hands down. He's still far from Wanda/Wolfgang/Maxwell level but Weremoose is really powerful for how cheap its idol is. You can pretty much clear ruins with a stack of Monster Meat and some grass while having passive heal, thulecite level armor and weapon, moggles, pickaxe+hammer and a music track for free. After heal nerf you'll probably need some blue caps, but come on, Wormwood has to find a Batbat, grind a lot of Healing Salves or waste time sleeping in a tent if he wants to fight in ruins. Sure, Woodie falls a bit later on, but he's one of the strongest characters early game when it comes to combat.
There's a 2nd day Woodie speedrun of Nightmare Werepig (before heal nerf, but still could be reproduced after it).

Wormwood's Lunar Guardian skills are extremely weak for how late he can utilize them, LG I forces you to use weak body armor and LG II dps is laughable. I'm not even mentioning Saladmanders (at least they're cute).
And it's fine, because Wormwood isn't combat oriented character - his skillset is 77% utility and the "combat" skills are Saladmanders(??), Moon Shroom Cloud (which is still more of an utility), Bramble Husk/Trap Specialist and Lunar Guardians (which are pretty weak and limiting).

This is mostly why I want his utility skills to be somewhat useful on their own and not be "just there" for you to forget you even have that skill.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Sapientis said:

P.S. referring to your argument about Woodie vs Wormwood
Woodie is a much stronger combat character than Wormwood hands down.

Just figured I'd say this was never what the arguement was about.

I don't care to continue on the conversation I just dislike people constantly trying to twist what I'm saying.

[Sapientis]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Just figured I'd say this was never what the arguement was about.

I don't care to continue on the conversation I just dislike people constantly trying to twist what I'm saying.

Okay, I see what this is about and I'll try to say what I meant by what I posted.

I didn't quote neither of you not to twist what anyone was saying, I just felt a call of duty to react to the discussion under my thread. But you called for it, so here we go:

17 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

While I don't think it could be called op considering what's possible in the preview tree even without knowing what bramble skill is going to be it's not wrong to say Wormwood gets a massive amount of mileage out of his skill tree when compared to Woodie or Wolfgang even if the latter two get a bigger boost in one specific area.

I also don't really get what you mean by the word "mileage" (I''m not native in english), I did check it up on CED and here's what I found (hope that's what you meant):

which would in fact be true - there are more situations in which Wormwood can get an advantage from (because of his skill set) than both Woodie and Wolfgang. Wolfgang's skillset is mostly "more damage" with some skills upgrading his gathering and traveling abilities, Woodie's skillset is (I'd say) equal parts combat, gathering and traveling/exploring, while Wilson's skillset is mostly survival and utility (alchemy).

When we look at Wormwood's skilltree he has skills improving survival (Bloom Branch), gathering food (Mushroom Branch and some minor farming skills), producing manure, some skills adding utility to his crafts, some minor combat skills (LG + LCIII), skills that are supposed to improve his gathering/exploration/combat abilities while lowering his survival abilities (Lunar Cultivators) because they cost health and he can also craft some plants anyone can gather with a shovel (again for his own hp, which is harder to restore).
Now if we were to measure the "mileage" of his skillset, he will get an advantage from more situations, sure, but the advantages he gets are far from massive and the effect can be reproduced by a generic Wilson in most cases. See, it's not like Wormwood can walk on water or teleport to a random place (damn, that's Woodie) or double the damage output of all followers (crap, that's Wolfgang).
If we were to actually weight what his skillset offers, will that even come close to Woodie or Wolfgang? And it's not like I want to bring everything to combat capabilities, but day 31 comes and you won't beat Deerclops with a field of Pumpkins, your Mushrooms will rot and perish in fear of the Giant, who comes to smash your Planters. Will you then come and tell her about your "massive amount of mileage" you have in your skillset as Wormwood? Or will you wish you could just eat 3 Monster Meats and some grass and just tank her in 2 minutes and then go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened?

This game, in its core, revolves around combat, that is quite something to consider. You can only get most of the best items in the game by fighting. Wormwood alone does that worse than a typical Wilson and his skillset doesn't improve that too much.
How are you even trying to compare Lunar Guardian II's measly damage if you have to beat CC to get the Brightshade Sword to even get it?

That is why we try to get more value of Wormwood's skills, not because they are that weak overall, but because even them being stronger won't make Wormwood any easier to progress the game, his skills only help him doing everyday stuff and he should do that well, even really well.

[Mysterious box]

21 minutes ago, Sapientis said:

Okay, I see what this is about and I'll try to say what I meant by what I posted.

I didn't quote neither of you not to twist what anyone was saying, I just felt a call of duty to react to the discussion under my thread. But you called for it, so here we go:

I also don't really get what you mean by the word "mileage" (I''m not native in english), I did check it up on CED and here's what I found (hope that's what you meant):

which would in fact be true - there are more situations in which Wormwood can get an advantage from (because of his skill set) than both Woodie and Wolfgang. Wolfgang's skillset is mostly "more damage" with some skills upgrading his gathering and traveling abilities, Woodie's skillset is (I'd say) equal parts combat, gathering and traveling/exploring, while Wilson's skillset is mostly survival and utility (alchemy).

When we look at Wormwood's skilltree he has skills improving survival (Bloom Branch), gathering food (Mushroom Branch and some minor farming skills), producing manure, some skills adding utility to his crafts, some minor combat skills (LG + LCIII), skills that are supposed to improve his gathering/exploration/combat abilities while lowering his survival abilities (Lunar Cultivators) because they cost health and he can also craft some plants anyone can gather with a shovel (again for his own hp, which is harder to restore).
Now if we were to measure the "mileage" of his skillset, he will get an advantage from more situations, sure, but the advantages he gets are far from massive and the effect can be reproduced by a generic Wilson in most cases. See, it's not like Wormwood can walk on water or teleport to a random place (damn, that's Woodie) or double the damage output of all followers (crap, that's Wolfgang).
If we were to actually weight what his skillset offers, will that even come close to Woodie or Wolfgang? And it's not like I want to bring everything to combat capabilities, but day 31 comes and you won't beat Deerclops with a field of Pumpkins, your Mushrooms will rot and perish in fear of the Giant, who comes to smash your Planters. Will you then come and tell her about your "massive amount of mileage" you have in your skillset as Wormwood? Or will you wish you could just eat 3 Monster Meats and some grass and just tank her in 2 minutes and then go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened?

This game, in its core, revolves around combat, that is quite something to consider. You can only get most of the best items in the game by fighting. Wormwood alone does that worse than a typical Wilson and his skillset doesn't improve that too much.
How are you even trying to compare Lunar Guardian II's measly damage if you have to beat CC to get the Brightshade Sword to even get it?

That is why we try to get more value of Wormwood's skills, not because they are that weak overall, but because even them being stronger won't make Wormwood any easier to progress the game, his skills only help him doing everyday stuff and he should do that well, even really well.

That's my bad then I misunderstood the intention sorry.

The point I was making was that each of his skills did something different for the most part without much filler post preview which is something I personally enjoy. I get the views on how useful some of the skills are different due to personal playstyle differences but it was never about skill viability for me at least.