Wormwood's skill tree last prunning suggestions

[Sapientis]

There's been a lot of suggestions taken into consideration (thanks a lot), but as @Ohan pointed out there's still some problem with the 3rd branch, I gave it a name "Odd Branch", as it has skills not connected to the same theme (Plant Crafting Branch, Mushroom Branch and Bloom Branch seem cohesive).

If we're still able to change something I have this one suggestion (mostly visualizing @Ohan's suggestion to lower Living Log's cost by even a tiny bit like 5 hp):

• Seed Sleuth is combined with Farmhand and I hid line ends under it
• Skilled Self-Fertilizer is 1 skill lower, making room for Living Log Proficiency
• Bug Friend(?) is still an offbranch of Skilled Self-Fertilizer, so effectively also 1 skill lower

We're not informed if these were addressed or not, but it has been suggested that

• Skilled Self-Fertilizer skill could affect all fertilizers to be applied quicker
  (or to at least stack their heal-over-time effects additively)
• Plant Crafting Branch could include more Plant Crafts like generic Saplings, Grass Tufts or even Banana Bushes
  (Wormwood's favorite food)
• to possibly lower health cost of Bulbous Lightbugs from the whopping 15 health points each
  (these will die in 20 minutes, it's 90hp for 6 Lightbugs for 2.5 days, thus my suggestion to swap them with Carrats and leave 5hp cost of Lunar Cultivator I, this will also keep the 6 pets for 5 hp each -> 4 pets for 15 hp each ->2 pets for 25 hp each progression or maybe even 6 for 5hp -> 4 for 10hp -> 2 for 15/20 hp?)

Other than that I love changes made, great work so far! Cannot wait to try newer new Wormwood!

[Ohan]

Merging farmhand with seed sleuth and replacing it with a living log skill would be so awesome. 

I also hope lightbugs will be retuned. 
swapping carrats for lightbugs would be really nice.

Lightbugs are useful to both ww “archetypes” the tree is seemingly trying to represent. 

Whereas carrat’s only use is basically cleaning up after breaking giant veggies. 

If a swap were to happen i dont think carrats deserve to be nerfed to 15 hp. Both lightbugs and carrats can stand to be 5 each imo. 

——

bottom right skills (mainly growth spurt 1&2) also feel pretty undertuned.

The entire branch is discrete invisible boosts to blooming that are barely noticable. A tuned down petal production added on top of one of the skill could spice it up perhaps. 

That being said i doubt ill ever pick any of the bottom branch skills on either side anyway. (Perhaps mid/late game portal reset for monkeytails…)

Moonshroom clouds+cultivation and bramble skills are more fun than invisible boosts to blooming. 

[HowlVoid]

I have a few small nitpicks with skills.

Carrats should be able to pick up at least grass and twigs for mid game gecko and twiggy tree farms (or late game shadow reaper) and even early game domestication. (A carrat could even see twigs and grass as food?)

As it stands early game they just pick up seeds and they are a waste of hp cause they die so fast. It would be a small niche that while I'm on a beefalo they bring me some grass and twigs. Or expand it to picking berries and planters if you pick one. If they are to help farms only, they should help all farms. At the veeeeeeery least, have them scare away birds for more seeds.

(Suggested by evelo) Seed sleuth should identify the seeds in your hands as well. It's a little annoying I have to tend to every single plant before I can identify it (not sure if a console only issue). Because of this its usually faster to just grow them in clusters and wait to see what grows while you do something else (with like 20+ seeds).

The whole blooming path feels weak compared to the new revamped mushroom and crafts paths and there's still no way to tell when you've reached the new max bloom from flower power making it hard to utilize. 

Photosynthesis is still very plain and not very "deep" as a skill. I don't see anyone aiming for photosynthesis in exchange for moonshrooms and a husk skill (or plant crafts). The whole path feels like a "trap" since photosynthesis punishes you for not being in full bloom all the time (because of the very small hp gain) and growth spurt and flower power need wormwood to constantly undergo the blooming cycle to benefit from them (stages 2-3, stage two does not work with photosynthesis).

Just my two cents on some quirkiness with skills and a path. 

The new skill tree is a lot more cohesive so anything else past this point is a bonus.

[Ohan]

3 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Carrats should be able to pick up at least grass and twigs for mid game gecko and twiggy tree farms (or late game shadow reaper) and even early game domestication. 

This would be awesome. 

I totally agree with the rest of ur assessments. Photosynth branch genuinely does feel like a trap. And plantcrafting branch is just 4 empty slots to me and monkeytails.

Ww still has a boatload of weak skills and others that r undertuned like carrats only picking food etc but this restructuring + moon shroom planting and a husk skill is nice. 

I really want to know what the husk skill is though… watch it just be increased aoe or something lol.. 

[Sapientis]

8 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Carrats should be able to pick up at least grass and twigs for mid game gecko and twiggy tree farms (or late game shadow reaper) and even early game domestication. 

As it stands early game they just pick up seeds and they are a waste of hp cause they die so fast. It would be a small niche that while I'm on a beefalo they bring me some grass and twigs. Or expand it to picking berries and planters if you pick one. If they are to help farms only, they should help all farms. 

It would be great to have, but if they're to be so smart (almost smarter than Shadow Workers) why would they just sit there on the Lunar Island and not do something with their huge brains? Jokes aside I feel it would be fine if they could pick items like Polly does, but only on ground and limited by obstacles (but still a lot faster). Gathering Logs and Pinecones after Bearger would be so damn fast! I usually use Lazy Forager now, as it can be easily refueled.

15 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

(Suggested by evelo) Seed sleuth should identify the seeds in your hands as well. It's a little annoying I have to tend to every single plant before I can identify it (not sure if a console only issue). Because of this its usually faster to just grow them in clusters and wait to see what grows while you do something else (with like 20+ seeds).

That would require introducing Weed Seeds and I'm not sure we'll get this. For me Seed Sleuth should view planted Seeds without examining them, so similarly to Winona viewing Wagstaff's tools with their real names.

17 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

The whole blooming path feels weak compared to the new revamped mushroom and crafts paths and there's still no way to tell when you've reached the new max bloom from flower power making it hard to utilize. 

Photosynthesis is still very plain and not very "deep" as a skill. I don't see anyone aiming for photosynthesis in exchange for moonshrooms and a husk skill (or plant crafts). The whole path feels like a "trap" since photosynthesis punishes you for not being in full bloom all the time (because of the very small hp gain) and growth spurt and flower power need wormwood to constantly undergo the blooming cycle to benefit from them (stages 2-3, stage two does not work with photosynthesis).

Indirect fix to the Bloom Branch would be the introduction of the Bloom Meter. Combining Growth Spurts into one skill and adding Petal Production after Photosynthesis would be great, but we got the information Petals are not coming back, so it's better to just be happy with what we got.
On the other hand if you had all 4 branches powerful you'd have really hard time choosing one and not the other, you'd always feel bad about great skills you left untaken, so maybe it's for the better?

Having Woodie for example: yea, Quick Picker would be nice to have, but there are much better skills to take. Goose is fine, but Moose is just better in game full of fighting and with bosses to slay.

14 minutes ago, Ohan said:

And plantcrafting branch is just 4 empty slots to me and monkeytails.

If this branch remains I'd like it to have more Plant Crafts: Saplings, Grass Tufts or even Reed Tufts still cannot be made anyhow apart from enabling Basic Resource Regeneration in World Settings. Wormwood would also benefit from being able to craft Banana Bushes (source of his favourite food).

[HowlVoid]

7 hours ago, Sapientis said:

It would be great to have, but if they're to be so smart (almost smarter than Shadow Workers) why would they just sit there on the Lunar Island and not do something with their huge brains? Jokes aside I feel it would be fine if they could pick items like Polly does, but only on ground and limited by obstacles (but still a lot faster). Gathering Logs and Pinecones after Bearger would be so damn fast! I usually use Lazy Forager now, as it can be easily refueled.

I was more thinking they're so dumb they think we eat foliage like they probably do lol! I agree with you though.

7 hours ago, Sapientis said:

That would require introducing Weed Seeds and I'm not sure we'll get this. For me Seed Sleuth should view planted Seeds without examining them, so similarly to Winona viewing Wagstaff's tools with their real names.

That sounds like a really good idea. I will suggest that a weed seed could just get destroyed with an "oops!". 

7 hours ago, Sapientis said:

Indirect fix to the Bloom Branch would be the introduction of the Bloom Meter. Combining Growth Spurts into one skill and adding Petal Production after Photosynthesis would be great, but we got the information Petals are not coming back, so it's better to just be happy with what we got.
On the other hand if you had all 4 branches powerful you'd have really hard time choosing one and not the other, you'd always feel bad about great skills you left untaken, so maybe it's for the better?

Having Woodie for example: yea, Quick Picker would be nice to have, but there are much better skills to take. Goose is fine, but Moose is just better in game full of fighting and with bosses to slay.

If this branch remains I'd like it to have more Plant Crafts: Saplings, Grass Tufts or even Reed Tufts still cannot be made anyhow apart from enabling Basic Resource Regeneration in World Settings. Wormwood would also benefit from being able to craft Banana Bushes (source of his favourite food).

Good point, I have a good feeling I'll be content with the changes they decide to make. That extra skill point is already a huge difference.

[Copyafriend]

Honestly i dont think we should have any more added, wormwood is already getting quite a number of powerful perks, three of which (assuming the bramble perk is going to be good, i’ll assume so) is already in that same tree, we dont want to make one branch too good, and we’re already getting almost all of his perks.

i just want to let it rest, the tree is good-enough tm

I am not inherently againdt any more suggestions or minor tweaks, but honestly, wormwoods new tree is PRETTY loaded, its gonna be unfair if it gets any better imho.

[HowlVoid]

Bump

[Ohan]

On 7/30/2023 at 6:08 AM, Copyafriend said:

wormwoods new tree is PRETTY loaded, its gonna be unfair if it gets any better imho.

You must just be trolling at this point. 

[Evelo]

I'm waiting for the skill tree to be released before commenting on any other potential issues. No use suggesting changes for something we know little about. (I also think voicing issues is more impactful than voicing suggestions, Klei is creative, let them come up with the solution to the problems we list imo)

[HowlVoid]

Me too, these are just my old suggestions. I won't add any new ones.

Aaahhhh I'm excited.

[Copyafriend]

3 hours ago, Ohan said:

You must just be trolling at this point. 

Uh?

no not really-

i mean i think the statement had a hint of exaggeration in there but yeah wormwood has a really strong skilltree, his new one is gonna be better than woodies in my opinion, getting some perks from BOTH sides. Prettttyy strong.

not broken, not yet, no need for a nerf.

but it is pretty good

[HowlVoid]

Just now, Copyafriend said:

Uh?

no not really-

i mean i think the statement had a hint of exaggeration in there but yeah wormwood has a really strong skilltree, his new one is gonna be better than woodies in my opinion, getting some perks from BOTH sides. Prettttyy strong.

not broken, not yet, no need for a nerf.

but it is pretty good

I was really hoping the cultivator tree was as strong as the lunar guardian side but it's really not. 

I don't need to explain how carrats are a poor man's lazy forager.

Saladmanders don't function underground currently and I was really hoping they were a cool early game skill but they're not. I tried really hard to get them, but the seeds just wouldn't cooperate and I gave up. I actually ended up deactivating them in favor of ipecaca. They cost so much HP to maintain for hardly a difference in dps at the point where you can get them. They work to some extent on moose/goose though.

They're a fun gimmick, but not much else.

I was really surprised how awful lightbugs were lol. One lightbugs wasn't enough light and my sanity tanked. Two lightbugs (now 30 HP lost) and I was still losing more than regular sanity, I need 3 and the 45 HP lost isnt really worth that. 

I think being able to pick both sides actually is only getting him to where woody is. Night vision, higher dps, more survivability, etc.

Now I'm just hoping the husk skill can compete with throwing treeguards at the celestial champion. 

[Ohan]

9 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I was really hoping the cultivator tree was as strong as the lunar guardian side but it's really not. 

I don't need to explain how carrats are a poor man's lazy forager.

Saladmanders don't function underground currently and I was really hoping they were a cool early game skill but they're not. I tried really hard to get them, but the seeds just wouldn't cooperate and I gave up. I actually ended up deactivating them in favor of ipecaca. They cost so much HP to maintain for hardly a difference in dps at the point where you can get them. They work to some extent on moose/goose though.

They're a fun gimmick, but not much else.

I was really surprised how awful lightbugs were lol. One lightbugs wasn't enough light and my sanity tanked. Two lightbugs (now 30 HP lost) and I was still losing more than regular sanity, I need 3 and the 45 HP lost isnt really worth that. 

I think being able to pick both sides actually is only getting him to where woody is. Night vision, higher dps, more survivability, etc.

Now I'm just hoping the husk skill can compete with throwing treeguards at the celestial champion. 

precisely. 

“He can click buttons on both side of the tree = insanely powerful” 

is such a funny argument to me. Zero consideration for what those buttons actually do. 

27 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

but yeah wormwood has a really strong skilltree, his new one is gonna be better than woodies in my opinion,

I should not be surprised at this point to read something like this on these forums but its still funny.

choosing wormwood’s out of the three skill trees to concern-troll about is… actually i cant finish this sentence because of forum guidelines. 

[Copyafriend]

Just now, Ohan said:

choosing wormwood’s out of the three skill trees to concern-troll about is… actually i cant finish this sentence because of forum guidelines. 

I mean, not trolling, sorry you dont agree with my opinion i guess..?

i love wormwood and think he’s getting an nice boost, he’s even getting a cool use in my favorite gamemode: lights out (lightbugs are equipment free light, huge in day to day, i’m glad to overpay a bit). Its not the biggest advantage, but its cool.

i specifically said that i dont think its op or needs a nerf. If me thinking its strong bothers you…

idk just dont respond to me i guess?

what do you want? A cookie? Glad you disagree, no need to call me a “troll” just because i prefer abilities to be on the weaker end.

[Ohan]

7 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

idk just dont respond to me i guess?

what do you want? A cookie? Glad you disagree, no need to call me a “troll” just because i prefer abilities to be on the weaker end.

This is so rich coming from the person who went out of their way to make a dedicated thread telling other people they should stop posting their suggestions cuz u find it annoying. 

[HowlVoid]

I don't want to give the impression wormwood's tree is awful by any means.

Everything has a fun and enjoyable use, which I'm happy about.

I just don't think he's in any danger of approaching what one may consider op.

Right now it's all good vibes. 

[Copyafriend]

11 minutes ago, Ohan said:

This is so rich coming from the person who went out of their way to make a dedicated thread telling other people they should stop posting their suggestions cuz u find it annoying. 

I did and do find it annoying, and people had every option to… ignore me. But my point wasn’t that it annoyed me, my point was that it was greedy to expect a FULL rework. Not a touch up not a “the lightbugs are a bit too slow” not “man these saladmanders should be able to jump on and off boats”

Because one popped up like 20 minutes after the “we’ll look at it again”

and i was mad because its greedy and self centered to expect a complete redo of a characters skill tree that already had one redo.

its cool to want changes, its cool to disagree with me.

its not cool to imply that i’m the r word just because you disagree with me.

[Mysterious box]

While I don't think it could be called op considering what's possible in the preview tree even without knowing what bramble skill is going to be it's not wrong to say Wormwood gets a massive amount of mileage out of his skill tree when compared to Woodie or Wolfgang even if the latter two get a bigger boost in one specific area.

[HowlVoid]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

While I don't think it could be called op considering what's possible in the preview tree even without knowing what bramble skill is going to be it's not wrong to say Wormwood gets a massive amount of mileage out of his skill tree when compared to Woodie or Wolfgang even if the latter two get a bigger boost in one specific area.

Define, "mileage". 

They both get 15 skill points. If you're referring to getting both sides of the affinity section, I've already explained why that's isn't very powerful.

If you're talking about more "uses" per skill then you would be wrong.

Woodie receives the most "mileage" out his skills because they come that much sooner.

Let's compare:

Woodie's curse path is active at all times.

Wormwoods blooming requires fertilizer, the soonest you will get fertilizer is possibly days 3-4 depending on your luck with bottles.

Quicker picker, is active at all times.

Wormwood's farmhand only works when crops have grown.

Woodie's walking cane requires 3 logs and a charcoal, and his idols require basic resources.

Wormwood's crafts, require large very large quantities of berries, rot which take days to accumulate, bananas from underground, or his own health which takes a considerable amount of time to recover in the early game. On top of the time it takes for said items to grow and/or be fertilized.

Woodie's weremoose idol get planar damage/a large DPS increase as soon as he gets an idol (3 mm and some grass). On top of the amount of resources this skill now saves.

Wormwood requires late game items to get access to his damage boost and planar damage. This requires the entire pearl quest line, the lunar altar quest line, the wagstaff minigames, killing cc and killing brightshades.

Woodies charge can bulldoze a large amount of mobs for mm and grass.

Wormwood requires a large amount of his own HP.

I could go on, but you get the point.

Wormwood's skills require more work before you can start seeing any results. I don't mind this, but this is the truth. I think people just look at Wormwoods skill tree and don't realize the amount of work it takes to make use of these. We don't just spawn and get them for free like some of Wolfgang's and Woodie's perks. The only perk we got for "free" straight out of the gate was butterfly friend and bee kind lol.

[Mysterious box]

28 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Define, "mileage". 

They both get 15 skill points. If you're referring to getting both sides of the affinity section, I've already explained why that's isn't very powerful.

If you're talking about more "uses" per skill then you would be wrong.

Woodie receives the most "mileage" out his skills because they come that much sooner.

Let's compare:

Woodie's curse path is active at all times.

Wormwoods blooming requires fertilizer, the soonest you will get fertilizer is possibly days 3-4 depending on your luck with bottles.

Quicker picker, is active at all times.

Wormwood's farmhand only works when crops have grown.

Woodie's walking cane requires 3 logs and a charcoal, and his idols require basic resources.

Wormwood's crafts, require large very large quantities of berries, rot which take days to accumulate, bananas from underground, or his own health which takes a considerable amount of time to recover in the early game. On top of the time it takes for said items to grow and/or be fertilized.

Woodie's weremoose idol get planar damage/a large DPS increase as soon as he gets an idol (3 mm and some grass). On top of the amount of resources this skill now saves.

Wormwood requires late game items to get access to his damage boost and planar damage. This requires the entire pearl quest line, the lunar altar quest line, the wagstaff minigames, killing cc and killing brightshades.

Woodies charge can bulldoze a large amount of mobs for mm and grass.

Wormwood requires a large amount of his own HP.

I could go on, but you get the point.

Wormwood's skills require more work before you can start seeing any results. I don't mind this, but this is the truth. I think people just look at Wormwoods skill tree and don't realize the amount of work it takes to make use of these. We don't just spawn and get them for free like some of Wolfgang's and Woodie's perks. The only perk we got for "free" straight out of the gate was butterfly friend and bee kind lol.

Long term usage of perks and value per point overall. Woodie's moose is the obvious pick of the 3 idols but if your planning to use the beaver for the end game as well that's 11 points into making 2 abilities useful and less painful in the end game. As nice as the wooden cane and hard hat are they're early game perks at best meaning the only really valuable perks that scale into the end game beside the curses are quick picker and tree guard summoning. Not to mention even if you wanted to invest the very minimum skill points into curses while keeping them effective that's still 7 skill points focusing on 1 skill and even that's a stretch because that assumes your not using curse embracer or the alignment.

Looking at Wormwood on the other hand he's starts as already being a character with a fully functioning kit unlike base Woodie but even ignoring that and focusing purely on the skills that stay useful in his kit you've got faster healing with his exclusive craft, bramble trap auto resets adding damage to combat and other neat little strats, friendliness with killer bees, sleep spores, faster mushroom production, summons, additional damage on bightshade equips, and being able to bind enemies on brightshade equips and all of that is on a single distribution of skills.

Is it as powerful as the Were moose? No but he clearly gets far more value per point than Woodie. To put it another way had Woodie's skill tree been designed more like Wormwood's the curse duration and embracer skill would have been combined and made into 1 skill point, Moose, Beaver, and Goose would all be part of one mastery line costing around 2 skill points each without mastery locks. Am I saying Wormwood is op? No but he clearly gets a fair bit of variety and value out of each skill point in his tree with the post preview changes.

I play both characters so I'm very much aware of the amount of work needed as I've said many times the only one I don't play is Wolfgang and that aside I've played far more Wormwood than Woodie because it took me a long time to really get around to deep diving into Woodie in dst. while it's true Wormwood takes more work for his crafts that's because he has a lot more variety in what his powers do.

[HowlVoid]

50 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Long term usage of perks and value per point overall. Woodie's moose is the obvious pick of the 3 idols but if your planning to use the beaver for the end game as well that's 11 points into making 2 abilities useful and less painful in the end game.

That's cool, I'm glad you can reset points so you don't actually need to do what you explained. You can switch between beaver and weremoose to fit you're desired needs at the celestial portal. Well wormwood's skill tree is composed around 50% of food of which he only benefits 2/3rds of them. So if you don't want to focus on food or the path that doesn't reward long term blooming you only have one choice.

But it's pretty cool you get to focus on mass farming or battle that certainly seems like your underselling the difference in versatility.

50 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

As nice as the wooden cane and hard hat are they're early game perks at best meaning the only really valuable perks that scale into the end game beside the curses are quick picker and tree guard summoning. Not to mention even if you wanted to invest the very minimum skill points into curses while keeping them effective that's still 7 skill points focusing on 1 skill and even that's a stretch because that assumes your not using curse embracer or the alignment.

I compared specifically the resource paths on wormwood because those are his weakest paths compared to woodie's weakest path. You seemed to have ignored that completely. Wormwood can't take other skills if he takes those either. Wormwood doesn't have infinite points.

I will say this though, 20 mushroom planters can't solo the celestial champion nor fw.

And speaking of weakest skills,

Did you know you too can have mushroom multiplier? Just catch a spore. Late game you can make multiple pigs were fun caps.

Did you know you too can have bee kind? Just light a beebox on fire while near a flingo.

Did you know you too can have tons of monkey tails? Just go to moonquay island woodie can walk there.

And unless youre a megabasers you should come across as many berry bushes and lureplants as you'll ever need. 

Quick picker does not have an equal or replacement in game. An army of treeguards does not have an equal or replacement in game.

Since you brought up mileage specifically, I think we can very much gauge when one has infinite milage and which one doesn't.

50 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Looking at Wormwood on the other hand

Yeah, if you're just "looking" at wormwood then I understand why you're coming to so many incorrect assumptions. Wormwood is a complete character but he was no less complete than woodie.

50 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

he's starts as already being a character with a fully functioning kit unlike base Woodie

I wasn't aware woodie was unplayable. You mean the character with the biggest downside in the game was somehow stronger than woodie? The only thing wormwood had over woodie was darkswords, and the in woodie's rework he got a higher chance to spawn them, they became more available in the grottos, and now woodie has completely surpasses that gap with his skill tree.

50 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

but even ignoring that and focusing purely on the skills that stay useful in his kit you've got faster healing with his exclusive craft,

Wasn't aware his compost wraps which heals over time heals faster than food.

50 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

bramble trap auto resets adding damage to combat and other neat little strats,

You mean the traps that can't hit flying enemies? 

Have you used the tree guard army yet?

50 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

friendliness with killer bees,

Killer bees vs tree guards ultimate battle, who will win? Lol

Not sure if you've had trouble just walking away from a killer bees hive but here's a pro strat: if you walk away from them, they can't hit you.

50 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

sleep spores, faster mushroom production,

It's 20% that's translates to 4 more yields per year. That is only assuming you keep an alarm that tells you exactly when to pick them. If you miss a single second it becomes 3 and any days after that it becomes 2 and so on. 

Sleep spores cause wormwoods saladmanders to fall asleep.

If woodie needs to sleep everything on screen he can use the pan flute.

I will admit this is the one of the few skill I'm excited for only because we can plant them. 

50 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

summons,

Did you ignore your own summons?

50 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

additional damage on bightshade equips,

Additional damage on weremoose?

50 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

and being able to bind enemies on brightshade equips and all of that is on a single distribution of skills.

Cool you can take weremoose and treeguards feller 3 and do all of the rest on normal woodie. 

Treeguardfeller 3, weremoose, and the curse path, that's 11 points. You got 4 left.

50 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Is it as powerful as the Were moose? No but he clearly gets far more value per point than Woodie.

Look above, no.

50 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

To put it another way had Woodie's skill tree been designed more like Wormwood's the curse duration and embracer skill would have been combined and made into 1 skill point, Moose, Beaver, and Goose would all be part of one mastery line costing around 2 skill points each without mastery locks. Am I saying Wormwood is op? No but he clearly gets a fair bit of variety and value out of each skill point in his tree with the post preview changes.

Variety? You mean the stuff everyone else can do but slightly faster (big emphasis on slightly) and slightly less annoying?

50 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I play both characters so I'm very much aware of the amount of work needed as I've said many times the only one I don't play is Wolfgang and that aside I've played far more Wormwood than Woodie because it took me a long time to really get around to deep diving into Woodie in dst. while it's true Wormwood takes more work for his crafts that's because he has a lot more variety in what his powers do.

It really feels like you didn't play wormwood at all. A lot of the things you pointed out were just straight up misleading. 

You completely ignored how bramble traps work, you over exaggerated the use of bee kind like it's not just some minor utility and pretended like two saladmanders can compare to 20 treeguards, etc.

You might want to run those comparisons again 

As far as I'm concerned with the release of wormwoods revamped skill tree everyone is on equal footing. I don't want people being mislead into believing wormwood has any sort of advantage over anyone else. Woodie is supposed to be a swiss knife character and wormwood has strengths in farming. 

There are things one can find in value from both characters. Wormwood was at a disadvantage when it came to the skill tree if you weren't a farmer but that has been fixed. Wormwood has more freedom than before, but by no means is he stronger than woodie's skill tree.

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I will say this though, 20 mushroom planters can't solo the celestial champion nor fw.

Interesting didn't know moose automatically soloed them if your argument is well it's possible therefore everything is justified then that's just a bad argument. 

 

6 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

And speaking of weakest skills,

Did you know you too can have mushroom multiplier? Just catch a spore. Late game you can make multiple pigs were fun caps.

Did you know you too can have bee kind? Just light a beebox on fire while near a flingo.

Did you know you too can have tons of monkey tails? Just go to moonquay island woodie can walk there.

And unless youre a megabasers you should come across as many berry bushes and lureplants as you'll ever need. 

Quick picker does not have an equal or replacement in game. An army of treeguards does not have an equal or replacement in game.

Since you brought up mileage specifically, I think we can very much gauge when one has infinite milage and the other one doesn't.

Did you know you can use bearger and a pick/axe invalidating the entirety of the were beaver?

Did you know you can use speed boosting equipment invalidating almost the entirety of the were goose?

Did you know good equipment exists invalidating the very need to use the moose during boss fights and instead opting to fight in a safer state with less risk?

Did you know walking canes exist?

To my knowledge the brightshade gear additions don't have a replacement either sure thulecite club exists but it doesn't have planar damage and Maxwell's shadow prison exists but that's on cast rather than retaliation.

14 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Variety? You mean the stuff everyone else can do but slightly faster (big emphasis on slightly) and slightly less annoying?

And this is different from Woodie how? Both have exclusive summons(if you count tree guards as summons) both do things abit faster than other characters in their own ways.

25 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Additional damage on weremoose?

First off when I was saying additional damage I'm talking about being able to use it in addition to your normal combat but hey maybe Woodie also summons a additional were moose alongside human Woodie using normal gear.

27 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Cool you can take weremoose and treeguards feller 3 and do all of the rest on normal woodie. 

Treeguardfeller 3, weremoose, and the curse path, that's 11 points. You got 4 left.

Cool and we only spent 11 skill points to power up 1 form and summon tree guards what a steal. I get it "Moose strong!"

34 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Well wormwood's skill tree is composed around 50% of food of which he only benefits 2/3rds of them. So if you don't want to focus on food or the path that doesn't reward long term blooming you only have one choice.

Well would you rather have skills that are bad in their default states with patches to make them actually useful sold to you as skills as compensation like Woodie?

16 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

It really feels like you didn't play wormwood at all. A lot of the things you pointed out were just straight up misleading. 

You completely ignored how bramble traps work, you over exaggerated the use of bee kind like it's not just some minor utility and pretended like two saladmanders can compare to 20 treeguards, etc.

You might want to run those comparisons again 

So let me get this straight your saying bee kind isn't useful because exploits exist? Because this is the same logic as people who say x character is bad because the celestial portal exists. Never did I say salamanders are direct dps comparisons to saldamanders you made that up. I didn't ignore how brambles work the idea is running over them is auto resetting them how is it not?

I feel like your looking down on Wormwood and his value as a character too much and I really don't get why I like Wormwood and what he offers I always have but maybe you just don't feel the same way.

[HowlVoid]

16 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Interesting didn't know moose automatically soloed them if your argument is well it's possible therefore everything is justified then that's just a bad argument. 

Dude we were talking about the path that has tree guards, yes they can solo cc and fw.

As for moose killing cc. 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Did you know you can use bearger and a pick/axe invalidating the entirety of the were beaver?

You're joking? Mushroom multiplier gives single mushrooms the same value as a spore. I wasn't exaggerating, it's a 1:1 ratio. You cannot destroy resources as fast as werebeaver with a pickaxe? 

16 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Did you know you can use speed boosting equipment invalidating almost the entirety of the were goose?

You can't teleport early game or walk on water? 

Again, you're stretching the ratio pretty far. Look again at my comparisons, if you're trying to witty you're failing at it 

The comparison I drew were on bee kind, mushroom multiplier, monkey tails, lureplants and berry bushes.

You're trying to compare werebeaver with a pick axe lol.

I'm comparing a berry bush with a berry bush. 

16 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Did you know good equipment exists invalidating the very need to use the moose during boss fights and instead opting to fight in a safer state with less risk?

Other way around, although I'm not sure if this was before his regen was nerfed.

If you're comparing three monster meat and grass to a bunch of armor and healing, while I'm comparing a mushroom spore equivalent to a mushroom spore you're not making sense.

16 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Did you know walking canes exist?

Not that early.

You basically ignored the point I was making.

16 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

To my knowledge the brightshade gear additions don't have a replacement either sure thulecite club exists but it doesn't have planar damage and Maxwell's shadow prison exists but that's on cast rather than retaliation.

Weremoose has his one increase in damage lol.

16 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

And this is different from Woodie how? Both have exclusive summons(if you count tree guards as summons) both do things abit faster than other characters in their own ways.

Don't go off topic were comparing saladmanders to treeguards. Saladmanders can't do this

https://youtu.be/UzyOSsLU6QM

16 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

First off when I was saying additional damage I'm talking about being able to use it in addition to your normal combat but hey maybe Woodie also summons a additional were moose alongside human Woodie using normal gear.

Weremoose gets an additional hit that does 119 normal damage. Against mobs with planar defense he gets an additional 80 planar damage doing around 140 total damage.

Wormwoods thorns do 70dmg + 5 planar dmg and is rng dependent. I thinks it's a 20% chance of being summoned 

A normal brightshades sword does 30 normal dmg and 30 planar damage.

The normal damage of weremoose is 59.5 per hit. Due to the slower attack it ends up doing slightly less than a fresh hambat but the more reliable third hit makes up for it.

Basically they are comparable. 

16 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Cool and we only spent 11 skill points to power up 1 form and summon tree guards what a steal. I get it "Moose strong!"

You completely ignored that I was comparing it to your version of great wormwood allocation where he spent all of his points. I feel like you're ignoring that my counter points, are counter to the points you're making and you're turning them into a completely separate argument.

Please stay on topic as we discuss each point independent of the other points.

So instead continue to address how having extra points is bad when in the example you provided wormwood had none.

16 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Well would you rather have skills that are bad in their default states with patches to make them actually useful sold to you as skills as compensation like Woodie?

Wormwood was literally ripped out of Hamlet and lost a huge chunk of his kit. Skill trees are in fact making up for that.

He lost his immunity to hay fever, the threat of jungle plant mobs and the immunity to the invasive brambles. We don't have default wormwood in dst lol.

Also this is whataboutism, you completely ignored my point about most of wormwoods skills being food and went on a rant about something else. This is about the higher "milage" in wormwoods skill tree remember? 

16 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

So let me get this straight your saying bee kind isn't useful because exploits exist?

I never said bee kind was useless, I very clearly stated it was minor utility.

And freezing mobs isn't an exploit lol.

16 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Because this is the same logic as people who say x character is bad because the celestial portal exists.

This has nothing to do with the celestial portal! 

Where are you taking this conversation omg haha.

16 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Never did I say salamanders are direct dps comparisons to saldamanders you made that up. I didn't ignore how brambles work the idea is running over them is auto resetting them how is it not?

Sigh, we were talking about the "mileage" in each skill tree correct?

One of the things you pointed out was saladmanders.

I pointed out to you an allocation to where woodie can replicate those skills and methods outside skill trees that can replicate those skills and woodie had 4 points left over. 

One of suck skill was tree guards.

The fact of the matter is tree guards are far more versatile than saladmanders.

You saw this and completely overvalued a lot of what's in here. 

I provided a woodie allocation that allows to do a lot of the things in here.

Mushroom multiplier, bee kind, and faster compost application are all things woodie can already do. 

The difference is moonshrooms being cheaper than panflute... And that's about it since I don't know what the husk skill is.

Woodie's treeguards have more impactful uses than saladmanders and woodie can run over mobs faster and cheaper than wormwood can kill mobs with bramble traps. 

This whole this is about wormwood getting more "mileage" and the objective fact is that that's not the case. They are both interesting in their own right but one does not have an advantage over the other.

16 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I feel like your looking down on Wormwood and his value as a character too much and I really don't get why I like Wormwood and what he offers I always have but maybe you just don't feel the same way.

No, I love wormwood, otherwise I wouldn't have fought so much for getting the justice he deserves. What I don't like is people giving misleading information trying to make him bigger than he is. I'm not trying to say wormwood is lower than woodie, what I want you to understand is the characters are on equal footing. The reason you think there is an advantage is because you didn't consider what these skills actually do and what they cost.

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

You're joking? Mushroom multiplier gives single mushrooms the same value as a spore. I wasn't exaggerating, it's a 1:1 ratio. You cannot destroy resources as fast as werebeaver with a pickaxe? 

Pick/Axe was referencing the hard materials perk

6 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

You can't teleport early game or walk on water? 

Which is why I said almost but I guess whatever makes your argument seem better I guess?

 

7 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

You're trying to compare werebeaver with a pick axe lol.

See above your reaching hard here.

8 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Other way around, although I'm not sure if this was before his regen was nerfed.

If you're comparing three monster meat and grass to a bunch of armor and healing, while I'm comparing a mushroom spore equivalent to a mushroom spore you're not making sense.

This was before clearly by looking at him recovering 3 hp at a time. 

 

9 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

If you're comparing three monster meat and grass to a bunch of armor and healing

Your arguing in bad faith if your saying armor and healing are hard to get your going even deeper into bad faith if your trying to claim that being able to heal on demand isn't easier than having limited passive healing in a boss fight. 

 

11 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Weremoose gets an additional hit that does 119 normal damage. Against mobs with planar defense he gets an additional 80 planar damage doing around 140 total damage.

Wormwoods thorns do 70dmg + 5 planar dmg and is rng dependent. I thinks it's a 20% chance of being summoned 

A normal brightshades sword does 30 normal dmg and 30 planar damage.

The normal damage of weremoose is 59.5 per hit. Due to the slower attack it ends up doing slightly less than a fresh hambat but the more reliable third hit makes up for it.

Basically they are comparable. 

I can tell your trying to be clever by intentionally ignore what I'm saying at this point your not I specifically said that I consider Wormwood's additional because it adds on to his base combat rather than being a alternate form with it's own limitations but keep pretending that's not the case.

15 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Don't go off topic were comparing saladmanders to treeguards. Saladmanders can't do this

No your comparing them because you seem to only really consider damage output that's your problem not mine. This is also clear based on your heavy focus on the moose and tree guards above all else.

 

17 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

You completely ignored that I was comparing it to your version of great wormwood allocation where he spent all of his points. I feel like you're ignoring that my counter points, are counter to the points you're making and you're turning them into a completely separate argument.

Funny because that's completely what your doing and even making assumptions about my thoughts and considering those as fact.

 

19 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

So instead continue to address how having extra points is bad when in the example you provided wormwood had none.

I don't even get what your trying to prove here your example didn't prove anything what's stopping me from only picking some of the Wormwood skills and leaving a few extra skill points? I didn't realize that was even meant to be some big gotcha moment not everyone even chooses the tree guard skill I know I don't. Are you trying to say Wormwood doesn't end up with more individual upgrades than Woodie by the end of his skill tree? Really I don't get your point.

 

31 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Sigh, we were talking about the "mileage" in each skill tree correct?

One of the things you pointed out was saladmanders.

I pointed out to you an allocation to where woodie can replicate those skills and methods outside skill trees that can replicate those skills and woodie had 4 points left over. 

One of suck skill was tree guards.

The fact of the matter is tree guards are far more versatile than saladmanders.

You know it's funny of you to mention that because when I said summons I meant all of them not just saladmanders but I understand your primary focus on that front has only been on dps. And before you say "Oh but light bugs and carrats are useless!" please understand that's up to personal preference take a step back and breath there's more to this game than just combat I swear!

 

34 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

You saw this and completely overvalued a lot of what's in here. 

Almost like someone assuming most people are going to try to cheese everything with tree guards...? You know you can cheese bosses with Walter's slingshot too we gonna go on a whole rant for that as well?

 

38 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

This whole this is about wormwood getting more "mileage" and the objective fact is that that's not the case. They are both interesting in their own right but one does not have an advantage over the other.

I see it's a objective fact that it's not the case because of your subjective opinion on how people play the game seems legit. Guess what it's a fact that bearger harvests wood faster than Woodie, it's a fact that Wolfgang hits harder than Woodie, and it's a fact that Maxwell collects resources faster than Woodie due to his servants doing the collecting, it's a fact that beefalos are better than Woby as mounts, and it's a fact Woodie can handle bigger hordes than Abigial. Just because a alternative exists don't mean you don't get mileage out of perks that help in those directions your looking at this from a glass half empty perspective. Because Wormwood doesn't have a exploit or a super powered form your devaluing all the nice additions he gets.

46 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

What I don't like is people giving misleading information trying to make him bigger than he is.

Seeing the value in what he has is being misleading and making him bigger than he is? See I call that very mindset devaluing the character.

 

47 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

The reason you think there is an advantage is because you didn't consider what these skills actually do and what they cost.

No I very much did as I said I play Wormwood but I do take a lot of issue with you judging Woodie almost entirely on one form and people exploiting his tree guard skill in a way it wasn't intended and don't try to act like it was.

 

50 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

What I don't like is people giving misleading information trying to make him bigger than he is. I'm not trying to say wormwood is lower than woodie

You know it's funny this entire argument started over me saying Wormwood gets more mileage but did you ever even consider what I originally meant with that statement? What I meant was he had more individual skills that did different things that weren't just filler or obviously made to chew up points my point was never a Wormwood is stronger than X or Y argument.