Skill Spotlight 1: Rhymes with Play Dev Tidbits on Future Content

[Dextops]

2 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

1. Just no. The devs even said it was a nerf

2. That hasn't changed much. He just gains more mightiness through being active now. And obviously people aren't complaining about powercreep when a survivor is nerfed 

1. What the devs say didn’t matter because it was undoubtably a buff even if it wasn’t intended. They removed his major downside and made getting mightyness way easier by just standing still with a weight.

2. They were complaining because they removed his downside and his speed and in return the rework gave weights that made it so your gameplay was standing still and they were unbearably slow at the time and the only usable one was the gembell a ruins tier item. This has changed now obviously but people at the time were complaining because the rework was overall horribly designed and did the opposite of everything they tried to do.

[PetulantPansy]

2 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

leave it to the DST community to turn "people complained because Klei made a niche old school character even more boring and gave him literally nothing new while taking away old things" into "Klei made the most OP character balanced and people love power creep so they threw a fit!!!!!!"

"niche old school character" is a nice euphemism for "most OP survivor before wanda". no need to hide from it bud

 

there were actually plenty of new mechanics. they just didn't powercreep enough so i guess people didnt notice.

1. fixed 2x damage multiplier

2. improved resource gathering efficiency

3. ability to move heavy items faster

4. better ocean exploration abilities

5. dumbbell item

 

9 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

(in spite of the fact that the majority of people in these same forums weren't even vocally against the rework)

give me a break pal. you literally said you'd stop playing because of this rework

[Dextops]

Just now, PetulantPansy said:

1. fixed 2x damage multiplier

2. improved resource gathering efficiency

3. ability to move heavy items faster

4. better ocean exploration abilities

5. dumbbell item

3 is replaceable by a beefalo 4 was garbage at the time and barely did anything and 5 was a garbage mechanic especially at its debut. 1 was a by product of them completely reworking how mightyness was gathered and 2 was barely noticeable.

 

2 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

niche old school character" is a nice euphemism for "most OP survivor before wanda". no need to hide from it bud

Except he had a harsh downside with needing to maintain a 3x hunger drain to actually get any of his perks restricting his speed to purely combat  and without it he’d become one of the worst characters in the game. Also he was purely a combat character which doesn’t make a character op for being good at combat especially when they have nothing else. Wolfgang wasn’t op in the slightest people just saw big number in damage and called him it while ignoring everything else

4 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

give me a break pal. you literally said you'd stop playing because of this rework

This is entirely unrelated to what they said?????

[RoughCactus69]

On 7/28/2023 at 3:06 PM, _zwb said:

You can craft it as Wilson with pure horror

Character swapping is an awful game mechanic.

Sincerely,

Cactus

On 7/29/2023 at 1:47 AM, chirsg said:

I really hope wigfrid gets exclusive crafts. 
Wigfrid mains almost unanimously agree that a throwable spear should be added as a skill point. It would be the single worst trade deal, maybe ever, if we didn't get that.

But to supplement this skill perk, I hope she also has exclusive void/brightshade spears that have different effects when thrown.

A spear throw, or a spear dash would be EXCELLENT. 

Sincerely, 

Cactus (A Wigfrid Main)

[PetulantPansy]

7 minutes ago, Dextops said:

1. What the devs say didn’t matter because it was undoubtably a buff even if it wasn’t intended. They removed his major downside and made getting mightyness way easier by just standing still with a weight.

2. They were complaining because they removed his downside and his speed and in return the rework gave weights that made it so your gameplay was standing still and they were unbearably slow at the time and the only usable one was the gembell a ruins tier item. This has changed now obviously but people at the time were complaining because the rework was overall horribly designed and did the opposite of everything they tried to do.

1. It most definitely was not a buff. It was neutral at best. Maintaining mightiness in the first iteration was not easy. And iirc, you lost mightiness if you took damage. That was actually probably the worst part of it lol. 

2. it was ok. you still gain mightiness now through doing stationary activities that hasn't change. The things that did change basically mitigated his downsides and gave him even more perks. It just created this survivor that is not only a top combat character but also a top resource gathering and ocean exploration character. That's what it took to satisfy that crowd.

 

Bottom line is, Klei isn't going to address powercreep by directly making any survivor weaker. They tried it before and based on that experiment, it is highly unlikely we'll ever see that again. DST isn't a competitive game. Klei will probably just buff the "weaker" survivors (through skill trees) in their effort to "balance out the survivors". 

[RoughCactus69]

6 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

It is peculiar that the people who are so good at game design have not formed their own studio and created the perfect game yet. Oh, well.

This is my LEAST favorite argument quite literally ever. 

If you got to a restaurant and you get given food that is absolutely WRETCHED tasting. You get the waiter and say

"This food taste awful, it's so bad it makes me sick!"

Imagine if their response was...

"Oh you aren't a chef. You can't criticize this. Go back there and make the food if you think it's so bad."

THAT is exactly what you are saying. People can criticize without having "experience" in game design.

Sincerely,

Cactus 

 

[Dextops]

Just now, PetulantPansy said:

1. It most definitely was not a buff. It was neutral at best. Maintaining mightiness in the first iteration was not easy. And iirc, you lost mightiness if you took damage. That was actually probably the worst part of it lol. 

 Losing mightyness on hit was something that existed for a couple days in the crafting ui beta until it was removed. Also maintaining mightyness was way easier than pre rework Wolfgang because you genuinely didn’t have to anything unlike before where you’d have to consume a lot of food to maintain it while having a massive hunger drain. Yes you could be a really good character but you’d have to give a lot of your resources in return and if you didn’t you’d have to suffer being a really really bad character. The rework completely removed this aspect 

 

1 minute ago, PetulantPansy said:

2. it was ok. you still gain mightiness now through doing stationary activities that hasn't change. The things that did change basically mitigated his downsides and gave him even more perks. It just created this survivor that is not only a top combat character but also a top resource gathering and ocean exploration character. That's what it took to satisfy that crowd.

Klei added different ways for mightyness gain  in the crafting up qol and made it so dumbbells worked faster as well as adding another one. I still think gaining mightyness through dumbbells suck but it’s faster now and there are alternatives. Also he wasn’t a top tier resource gatherer and ocean explorer and he still isn’t. You’d be better off using pigs and at the updates release Wolfgang didn’t actually row faster, he simply reached top speed faster which made him half a second faster which was entirely unnoticeable.

[PetulantPansy]

4 minutes ago, Dextops said:

 Losing mightyness on hit was something that existed for a couple days in the crafting ui beta until it was removed. Also maintaining mightyness was way easier than pre rework Wolfgang because you genuinely didn’t have to anything unlike before where you’d have to consume a lot of food to maintain it while having a massive hunger drain. Yes you could be a really good character but you’d have to give a lot of your resources in return and if you didn’t you’d have to suffer being a really really bad character. The rework completely removed this aspect 

 

Klei added different ways for mightyness gain  in the crafting up qol and made it so dumbbells worked faster as well as adding another one. I still think gaining mightyness through dumbbells suck but it’s faster now and there are alternatives. Also he wasn’t a top tier resource gatherer and ocean explorer and he still isn’t. You’d be better off using pigs and at the updates release Wolfgang didn’t actually row faster, he simply reached top speed faster which made him half a second faster which was entirely unnoticeable.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Most seasoned players dont find hunger to be an issue in the game especially after the first winter, even if the hunger drain rate is increased. 

I only brought this up as an example of how limited Klei's options are as far as addressing powercreep goes. And you can be completely right about how wolf was boring (but still op?) after his initial rework. But it doesnt change the fact that Klei learned the hard way through that rework that you basically can't nerf a survivor. (wolf's rework after the crafting UI was a buff compared to his pre-rework form). 

Back to the original post i replied to and how these solutions don't address the other 90% of the game, that's because they can't without increasing the difficulty level on new players, which is unwarranted. 

[Captain_Rage]

8 minutes ago, RoughCactus69 said:

This is my LEAST favorite argument quite literally ever. 

If you got to a restaurant and you get given food that is absolutely WRETCHED tasting. You get the waiter and say

"This food taste awful, it's so bad it makes me sick!"

Imagine if their response was...

"Oh you aren't a chef. You can't criticize this. Go back there and make the food if you think it's so bad."

THAT is exactly what you are saying. People can criticize without having "experience" in game design.

Sincerely,

Cactus 

 

But DST is not a wretched game. It is a very good game. People are acting as if it is an outright flawed game, which is baloney. Indeed they can give the game critique but when they go overboard with the critique, insisting on stuff that would make the game worse, then they embarrassing themselves.

[RoughCactus69]

Just now, Captain_Rage said:

But DST is not a wretched game. It is a very good game. People are acting as if it is an outright flawed game, which is baloney. Indeed they can give the game critique but when they go overboard with the critique, insisting on stuff that would make the game worse, then they embarrassing themselves.

It is a good game. But nothing is perfect. This game has its flaws. This game has its issues. There is absolutely no problem with addressing a game that others see as imperfect. 

The reason the game is what it is today is because people mentioned that...

"Hey this mechanic kinda sucks. Maybe change it?"

And they DID. Back when DS was early in development they took community feedback extremely seriously. So let people judge it if they don't like it. If you don't agree, you don't agree. But that doesn't give the right for you tell them they are unable to judge the game.

Sincerely,

Cactus

[Captain_Rage]

If people have the right to suggest changes then people have equal rights to call out bad suggestions. Agreed.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, PetulantPansy said:

"niche old school character" is a nice euphemism for "most OP survivor before wanda". no need to hide from it bud

I'd argue Maxwell beats Wolfgang as well. Before you say but Wolfgang hits far harder take a second to think about the sheer amount of things Maxwell does and makes easier on top of having damage output near Wanda and Wolfgang.

[Copyafriend]

34 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I'd argue Maxwell beats Wolfgang as well. Before you say but Wolfgang hits far harder take a second to think about the sheer amount of things Maxwell does and makes easier on top of having damage output near Wanda and Wolfgang.

Mmm maxwell is definitely part of the talks if we’re talking about best combat character, but while we are discussing characters and their downsides it’s important to remember that maxwells 75 health downside is SIGNIFICANT to anyone without a high number of hours. Its a one shot from a depths worm if you’re not paying attention as an example. Or four bites from spiders, two warrior spiders could zone you out if you’re not super careful.
 

Wanda to an even further extent because you need to stay at around 45 health (iirc i’m not redoing the math from age to health rn) while trying not to overheal and transform mid fight. Yes she has a dodge watch but its not easy to use, nor is it much better than kiting with her watch. If she isnt in granny form, she isnt really any better than wigfrid, and when she IS in granny form, she’s frail and does less dps than wolfgang (but still high)

maxwell may have one of the highest ceilings, but you gotta remember you constantly need to provide new equipment. Thulecite crowns/shadow tophat, nightmare armor and darkswords are basically REQUIRED to be be nearly as effective as the other two. He constantly needs to be acquiring shadow equipment just to keep up.

wolfgang is at 99% power with a hambat and football helmet and still has the same effective health as maxwell in night armor. (3000 unless again I’m misremembering wolfgang’s health when mighty)

they’re all good characters, but i dont see any of them as shining above the rest. Wolfgangs power is how easy it is to acquire, winona has more difficulty but once you have it you got it as long as you flirt with death. Maxwell requires the most upkeep but has the most benefit, having strong benefits outside of combat while being fairly competitive inside of it (with the proper equipment ofc)

 

[Mysterious box]

22 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Mmm maxwell is definitely part of the talks if we’re talking about best combat character, but while we are discussing characters and their downsides it’s important to remember that maxwells 75 health downside is SIGNIFICANT to anyone without a high number of hours. Its a one shot from a depths worm if you’re not paying attention as an example. Or four bites from spiders, two warrior spiders could zone you out if you’re not super careful.
 

Wanda to an even further extent because you need to stay at around 45 health (iirc i’m not redoing the math from age to health rn) while trying not to overheal and transform mid fight. Yes she has a dodge watch but its not easy to use, nor is it much better than kiting with her watch. If she isnt in granny form, she isnt really any better than wigfrid, and when she IS in granny form, she’s frail and does less dps than wolfgang (but still high)

maxwell may have one of the highest ceilings, but you gotta remember you constantly need to provide new equipment. Thulecite crowns/shadow tophat, nightmare armor and darkswords are basically REQUIRED to be be nearly as effective as the other two. He constantly needs to be acquiring shadow equipment just to keep up.

wolfgang is at 99% power with a hambat and football helmet and still has the same effective health as maxwell in night armor. (3000 unless again I’m misremembering wolfgang’s health when mighty)

they’re all good characters, but i dont see any of them as shining above the rest. Wolfgangs power is how easy it is to acquire, winona has more difficulty but once you have it you got it as long as you flirt with death. Maxwell requires the most upkeep but has the most benefit, having strong benefits outside of combat while being fairly competitive inside of it (with the proper equipment ofc)

 

I agree to an extent however I consider Wanda's downside far more significant than Maxwell's as the moment you learn how armor and healing items work Maxwell's lower hp becomes almost a non issue though many take long to get to the learning healing items part.

Something that does cause issue with considering the amount of gear needed to shine however is if a player is skilled enough to use Wolfgang effectively then they're skilled enough to use Maxwell effectively sure power comes easier to Wolfgang but the bare minimum needed to peak for the average player as Maxwell is a top hat, dark sword, and dark armor which all are very easy to obtain and if a player is having a hard time obtaining them odds are they aren't using Wolfgang for anything significant either so the comparison ends up not really mattering. At their core playing them isn't really any different because Maxwell doesn't have a mechanic holding him back like say Wanda, Walter, or Wormwood to name a few.

[PetulantPansy]

2 hours ago, PetulantPansy said:

"niche old school character" is a nice euphemism for "most OP survivor before wanda". no need to hide from it bud

I didn't say this to start a "who's most op survivor thread".  I only said this specific line because wolfgang and wanda are generally agreed to be 2 of the strongest survivors in the constant.

 

The topic is more of how to address the powercreep. To which there's no great solutions suggested here at least. I'm not a fan of powercreep either and just wanted to bring up that touching survivors and their unique abilities is off the table. Klei tried it and the community rejected it. 

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

I didn't say this to start a "who's most op survivor thread".  I only said this specific line because wolfgang and wanda are generally agreed to be 2 of the strongest survivors in the constant.

 

The topic is more of how to address the powercreep. To which there's no great solutions suggested here at least. I'm not a fan of powercreep either and just wanted to bring up that touching survivors and their unique abilities is off the table. Klei tried it and the community rejected it. 

I'm sure I know of a good way but saying it aloud would likely spark an eternal war.

[Milordo]

3 hours ago, PetulantPansy said:

Stop it. The dev's already tried fixing powercreep in a more reasonable way (wolfgang nerf/rework). But then the players threw this giant fit and basically threatened to burn the forums down over it. You really think they will try this again after that happened? You, the players, did not give them options. They dont have more direct ways to address powercreep because of what happened in the past!

What are you saying? This message doesn't make sense. 

Btw, from what I understood, if you think players threw a giant fit because Wolfgang was nerfed (????) by the planar mechanic, I suggest you to read better. People threw a giant fit to the mechanic itself, not Wolfgang. 

Nevermind I catched on the discussion. I will not add futher as this become pretty dumb.

[Theukon-dos]

15 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

It is peculiar that the people who are so good at game design have not formed their own studio and created the perfect game yet. Oh, well.

Believe it or not, there are people who are willing to put their money with their mouth is. 

And yes, it's just a mod, not a whole new game. But the thing is, people unhappy with the direction the game's been taking don't want a new game. They want the game that they already had and has been getting taken away from them.