HowlVoid Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 On the stream Klei developers asked for some feedback, I know some of y'all are tired of the wormwood post, but this is for them. Three philosophies based around skill trees they said on stream stood out to me: "Skill set progression to help new players stay engaged who keep dying" "some of them (skills) are also deep for players who have been with us a long time and keep characters interesting... We hope everyone finds some value with them" "guide new players while balancing them out (characters)... for harder rifts content" With these in mind I'd like to take another look at each of wormwood's skills. Seed sleuth: This is a starting skill to promote wormwoods farming. I wouldn't ask for very much as it's a starting skill and pushes newer players to one of wormwoods strongest inclinations (farming). Butterfly friend: This skill, unlike seed sleuth, does nothing for newer players. There is no push to a particular inclination, offers no deeper meaning, nor will serve any purpose in the end game. Since one starting skill is focused on farming the other skill should focus on what wormwood lacks, healing. It only makes sense for this skill to be self fertilizer. Butterfly friend should be deleted from his skill tree or given new utility such as catching butterflies with his bare hands. Blooming path: Growth spurt 1/2: You are required three skill points to reach these so I'd expect for them to carry a little more weight than the starting skills. They do offer some progression for newer players but they don't really offer any deeper meaning. These could stay as they are but if the team wants these to hold up in value it would be better for there to be skills focused on the value wormwood gets from fertilizers. Shade plant: A progression type skill to help wormwood players throughout summer. Some veterans players may get a use of our this, but I assume those that spend time in the canopy of an above average tree or underground, won't. This is is not bad but not great, it's strong for what it does so I think it's balanced within its niche. Flower Power: Further up the path, a skill should definitely try and meet all the expectations. Like growth spurt, it does help newer players, however it falls short of giving deeper interactions and holds small endgame value. Flower power extends the max blooming limit to 7.5 days, meaning you'll have to wait a bit before applying more formula. However on top of that not being much difference, it's hard to tell when you're even reaching the max. So I'd like to special mention: Petals (added to flower power): A skill that actually offered deeper meaning, helped newer players and held some endgame value. Producing an increasing or decreasing amount of petals would communicate where on the full bloom spectrum wormwood is. This also increases the value of all the skills leading up to this one. Photosynthesis: A pretty straight forward skill, but I think it's a bit too weak. It was somewhat buffed with starcaller but a starcaller isn't reasonable progression for a newer player. For a deeper meaning I suggest photosynthesis grow in power along with wormwoods blooming stages. With half the power when not blooming 1hp every 40 seconds so newer players who get this skill expecting some progression get a smudge of help right away; rather than struggling to keep this active. When in the first stage 1 hp every 35 seconds, 1hp every 30 seconds when in the second stage, 1 hp every 20 seconds when in full bloom and 1hp every 15-10 seconds when staying near the threshold of max bloom. I think if a wormwood can spam growth formula to refresh blooming every single day, they can probably heal just fine. With such a prominent weakness as night and dusk, there should be a way to boost it to get the most out of it when available. That would give it a deeper meaning. The farming not so farming path Farmhand: The same as seed sleuth in terms of inclination and some progression. However some downsides are: The tending range helped the resetting of bramble traps but with the increased cooldown you'll be doing a lot of movement to not get hit making resetting a lot of traps less impactful. The quick harvesting also seems very specific for a skill and doesn't synergize with carrats and the shadow reaper in the end game. Not sure what to make of it. Skilled self fertilizer: Should really one of the first skills newer players can obtain right away. Bramble traps specialist: Nothing to say other than we're missing a bramble husk skill. Bramble husk: A skill that has progression, has a deeper meaning and end game value... How about repairing it with fertilizer? Not too different from the shield or mask of terror. A bramble husk consists of two living logs, a living long costs wormwood 20hp, so every 1hp of fertilizer would restore about 13~ durability. Newer players would still need to consider either healing themselves or healing their means of protection. Bee kind: The newest buff definitely helps it maintain it's end game value as well as synergy with honey poultice. Flytrap: Flytrap doesn't seem to benefit wormwood in any way. If it was to be replaced with a husk skill and thus placing the husk skill higher on the skill tree then the husk skill should be stronger. The damage portion of the husk is underutilized. I think ramping up it's damage every time wormwood gets hit in quick succession would at least serve the purpose of mob protection. It's completely unused when a player is kiting as taking damage as wormwood is a heavy penalty. In which case it would be practical for there to be a way to trigger the husk, albeit with a cooldown, in between attacking/dodging. Mushroom farming path Mushroom Mastery 1/2: First skill improves growth by 10% and the second by 20% allowing about 4 extra yields in a planter per year. Basic progression skills not much else to say, some endgame value, not much in terms of a deeper meaning. Personally 4 extra yields could also translate to allowing yields in winter which would be 4 (15÷3.75=4). Poorsap: Another progression skill, holds little endgame value and holds a little bit of deeper synergy with compost wrap. Moonshroom cloud: In terms of progression this skill suddenly leaps ahead of the skills before it. I see some endgame value, but not much in terms of progression for newer players. They'll either know where to get these or they won't and there is no deeper meaning to be had with the skills before it. If we aren't allowed to grow them, then perhaps a mushroom planter could have a small chance to grow a moonshroom. Just a little bit of moon magic sneaked in there. No new artwork needed, when you go to pluck them, surprise, one of them was a moonshroom. The last two I want to talk about are Lunar guardian 2 and Lunar cultivator 2. Personally to me carrats feel week given they are a "locked" skill but only pick up food. They work alongside the shadow reaper tool but then invalidate the second half of farmhand. I think carrats should be able to pick up at least twigs and grass too (already on the ground). Finally, two skills that should hold the most "endgame value" but are mediocre in practice. Lunar guardian suffers from not being able to hit fast targets and Saladmanders suffer from... everything. Saladmanders are squishy, fall asleep underground after a single battle, and just have a hard time catching up. If wormwood is to hold his own in the coming battles than these need to get looked at again. At least for Lunar guardian 2, lunar guardian 1 could ensnare the target a little bit longer. I know everyone is sick of wormwood threads and I'm tired of making them. This will probably be my final one, I'd be surprised if anyone read all of it much less the devs... But if there is even a sliver of chance... Then you gotta try, right? Worse than not trying is wondering what could of happened if you had. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149937-post-stream-feedback-on-the-design-philosophy-behind-skills-ft-wormwood/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evelo Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 Never give up hope. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149937-post-stream-feedback-on-the-design-philosophy-behind-skills-ft-wormwood/#findComment-1655210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapientis Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 My response got out of control and I thought I'd just start another topic with it, because I'm so passionate to get Wormwood what he needs. I back you up on most your thoughts though. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149937-post-stream-feedback-on-the-design-philosophy-behind-skills-ft-wormwood/#findComment-1655238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatt Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 My new understanding is that the skill trees are supposed to be weak. They are not to rework characters or to strengthen them significantly against old content. They are like minor benefit which does not intend to change how we play the game significantly, at least for the most part. Especially when it touches the core mechanics of a character. Take wormwood for example, health is core disadvantage. Skill trees aren’t trying to make wormwood self-sufficient on photosynthesis, but trying to lessen the disadvantage so new players die less. But they will still have to rely heavily on regular healing stuff, even for the purpose of daily passive regen. As a result, photosynthesis has to be weak. If the petal skill return, it has to be weak too. The value of skill trees to new players is more about giving hints and letting them have something to look forwards to, rather than providing real substantial values to their gameplay. If your suggestion intends to make skills become something like new viable perks on their own, then I think it’s the wrong way to approach it. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149937-post-stream-feedback-on-the-design-philosophy-behind-skills-ft-wormwood/#findComment-1655241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoodlemanNed Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 6 hours ago, goatt said: If your suggestion intends to make skills become something like new viable perks on their own, then I think it’s the wrong way to approach it. woodie and wolfgang's skill trees provided pretty substantial benefits to their gameplay so i dont think the new perks are all intended to be weak. I personally think most of wormwood's new perks are fine as is but things like fly trap, saladmander, or brightshade vines are all pretty undertuned considering they come at the very end of their respective branch. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149937-post-stream-feedback-on-the-design-philosophy-behind-skills-ft-wormwood/#findComment-1655298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatt Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 34 minutes ago, NoodlemanNed said: woodie and wolfgang's skill trees provided pretty substantial benefits to their gameplay Woodie is an exception, because he's perceived by community as bad. So skill tree is actually a rework for him. I'm imagine Walter will get the same thing. Wolfgang gets very little that can impact old content. All the damage he gets are for planar weapons. When you compare his max damage, he hasn't changed excluding the alignment buff. So Wolfgang didn't get a buff against old content, basically. And the buff he got against planar content only brings him up to his old power level. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149937-post-stream-feedback-on-the-design-philosophy-behind-skills-ft-wormwood/#findComment-1655307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notecja Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 11 hours ago, HowlVoid said: Butterfly friend: This skill, unlike seed sleuth, does nothing for newer players. There is no push to a particular inclination, offers no deeper meaning, nor will serve any purpose in the end game. Since one starting skill is focused on farming the other skill should focus on what wormwood lacks, healing. It only makes sense for this skill to be self fertilizer. Butterfly friend should be deleted from his skill tree or given new utility such as catching butterflies with his bare hands. I just want comment that one, as it's only skill which actually works against friendship. For example someone is hungry and hurt, then Wormwood punch bunch of butterflies for that person... Is not a definition of friendship. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149937-post-stream-feedback-on-the-design-philosophy-behind-skills-ft-wormwood/#findComment-1655313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neu7ral Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 34 minutes ago, goatt said: Wolfgang gets very little that can impact old content. I mean he can also deal +30% to shadow monsters. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149937-post-stream-feedback-on-the-design-philosophy-behind-skills-ft-wormwood/#findComment-1655314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatt Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 8 minutes ago, Neu7ral said: I mean he can also deal +30% to shadow monsters. yeah, that's why I mentioned "excluding alighment buff". This buff is only available after defeating the bosses. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149937-post-stream-feedback-on-the-design-philosophy-behind-skills-ft-wormwood/#findComment-1655315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlVoid Posted July 28, 2023 Author Share Posted July 28, 2023 7 hours ago, goatt said: My new understanding Your understanding isn't complete, as I mentioned the developers themselves said that it's also meant to strength the characters that are lacking in power. As well as prepare them for post rift content, it's not all meant to benefit new players. 50 minutes ago, goatt said: Wolfgang gets very little that can impact old content. All the damage he gets are for planar weapons. When you compare his max damage, he hasn't changed excluding the alignment buff. So Wolfgang didn't get a buff against old content, basically. And the buff he got against planar content only brings him up to his old power level. That's had nothing to with new players either. In stream it was mentioned that wolfgang has no catching up to do so his skill tree didn't change him dramatically. OTHER characters are catching up to HIM. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149937-post-stream-feedback-on-the-design-philosophy-behind-skills-ft-wormwood/#findComment-1655316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious box Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 29 minutes ago, HowlVoid said: That's had nothing to with new players either. In stream it was mentioned that wolfgang has no catching up to do so his skill tree didn't change him dramatically. OTHER characters are catching up to HIM. Did they specify in what way specifically I dont watch the streams. Honestly that catching up to Wolfgang part seems kinda worrying which is why now I'm worried about the context. As skill tree could really end up in a weird direction soon. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149937-post-stream-feedback-on-the-design-philosophy-behind-skills-ft-wormwood/#findComment-1655320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatt Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 17 minutes ago, HowlVoid said: Your understanding isn't complete, as I mentioned the developers themselves said that it's also meant to strength the characters that are lacking in power. As well as prepare them for post rift content, it's not all meant to benefit new players. I've noticed it, as I mentioned in other threads and other comments. I think woodie got it and walter will get it. 18 minutes ago, HowlVoid said: That's had nothing to with new players either. In stream it was mentioned that wolfgang has no catching up to do so his skill tree didn't change him dramatically. OTHER characters are catching up to HIM. That has everything to do. Everything they said must be put in a right context. The context being that they do want to maintain some sort of balance which is still semi-clear, semi-mysterious to the outside world, namely "catching up to wolfgang" plus the traditional balance in old content. Other characters will not really catch up to Wolfgang level, but more like to wormwood level or weremoose / brightshade sword level, despite dev's word. Because the game still want new players to experience original DST mostly which requires wolfgang to not become stronger. I don't really have to explain myself. Whether I'm right or wrong will soon be (in)validated by next few updates. But for now, I have no other option but back up my points. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149937-post-stream-feedback-on-the-design-philosophy-behind-skills-ft-wormwood/#findComment-1655321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlVoid Posted July 28, 2023 Author Share Posted July 28, 2023 7 minutes ago, Mysterious box said: Did they specify in what way specifically I dont watch the streams. Honestly that catching up to Wolfgang part seems kinda worrying which is why now I'm worried about the context. As skill tree could really end up in a weird direction soon. They didn't specifically said catching up to Wolfgang, I don't think, but it was heavily implied. They said something the lines of weaker characters catching up up to the more powerful ones which ofc includes Wolfgang. I assume Wanda and Wendy are another. They're trying to accomplish a lot of goals at once. Give a small guiding hand to new players while balancing characters around post rift content. They even mentioned that they are aware some of this may seem like powercreep, but we will have to see how exactly it all plays out. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149937-post-stream-feedback-on-the-design-philosophy-behind-skills-ft-wormwood/#findComment-1655328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious box Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 14 minutes ago, HowlVoid said: They didn't specifically said catching up to Wolfgang, I don't think, but it was heavily implied. They said something the lines of weaker characters catching up up to the more powerful ones which ofc includes Wolfgang. I assume Wanda and Wendy are another. They're trying to accomplish a lot of goals at once. Give a small guiding hand to new players while balancing characters around post rift content. They even mentioned that they are aware some of this may seem like powercreep, but we will have to see how exactly it all plays out. I'm just hoping it's in a characters are going to become more unique and varied rather than a straight dps boost to the entire cast. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149937-post-stream-feedback-on-the-design-philosophy-behind-skills-ft-wormwood/#findComment-1655332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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