游戏里打boss走捷径的方法是不是太多了

[WarmDST]

我知道klei是不会太反对玩家使用多种方式去攻克不同的boss，然而有很多boss其实是完全不需要思考和不需要消耗的，现在大部分的boss都可以使用船加草根加灭火器的模式进行永久冰冻，还有一部分boss，比如shadows of knight,可以被海岸线挡住位置，从而利用火炮直接进行击杀，当然更多的方法让更多的玩家体会到乐趣，不过这种不符合常理的东西存在难道不会让人感觉不舒服吗？

[Fufuji]

why bother?

[Cassielu]

In English, pal. in English.

1 hour ago, WarmDST said:

现在大部分的boss都可以使用船加草根加灭火器的模式进行永久冰冻

I don't think developers know that, they often don't think as much as the players.

And I've never seen people talk about this "trick" outside the Chinese community.

[Shosuko]

tbh I like that there are other options, and that Klei doesn't usually patch these out.  This is not Dark Souls or Street Fighter, its a survival game.  It should reward creative thinking as much as mechanical skill.  tbh the boat setup @Cassielu shares is also pretty late game.  I will still get a faster kill through standard means, so this is really good for repeated killing.  Since you've already killed it once, you've shown you can defeat it and are just cashing in on extra resources.  I think this is good for the game.

[Dreadle]

18 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

tbh I like that there are other options, and that Klei doesn't usually patch these out.  This is not Dark Souls or Street Fighter, its a survival game.  It should reward creative thinking as much as mechanical skill.  tbh the boat setup @Cassielu shares is also pretty late game.  I will still get a faster kill through standard means, so this is really good for repeated killing.  Since you've already killed it once, you've shown you can defeat it and are just cashing in on extra resources.  I think this is good for the game.

They still need to improve flingomatic snowball aiming in general. It is highly frustrating when the snowball fails to hit the fire while the boat is in motion, as well as when it misses during save load or base burning lag. Clearly, it does not work as intended.

[Shosuko]

1 minute ago, Dreadle said:

They still need to improve flingomatic snowball aiming in general. It is highly frustrating when the snowball fails to hit the fire while the boat is in motion, as well as when it misses during save load or base burning lag. Clearly, it does not work as intended.

Definitely.  I was really disappointed that they added the water pump specifically for boats and it STILL misses putting any flames out while you're moving lol

[chirsg]

I just bring lux fan.

Most fire fighting methods in this game are flawed, but the flaw in the luxury fan is that the radius is simply too small. 
I'd actually really love a malbatross fan craft that took away emphasis on cooling and added more to fire extinguishing.

[kevindaze]

2 hours ago, WarmDST said:

当然更多的方法让更多的玩家体会到乐趣，不过这种不符合常理的东西存在难道不会让人感觉不舒服吗？

Isn't this game for cooperate and survive? Can't really find the reason why cheesing bosses will make u uncomfortable.
If u want to feel superior than others, competitive games like League of Legend or FPS might be more suitable 4 u.

Or maybe go play single player mode if u minded so much.

 

[Cassielu]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

I think this is good for the game.

I know this isn't a problem for veterans like most forum users, for whom having fun is more important than earning digital rewards. But for many new players, they tend to learn these methods first and then stop there.

Personally, I would prefer to fight in different ways based on the characteristics of different bosses in whatever earlyergame or endgame, rather than killing them all in the same way. after all, if you're using the same methodology, what's the point of more content?

Also, it is the same bug as the inability to extinguish a fire while the ship is moving: (

18 minutes ago, kevindaze said:

Can't really find the reason why cheesing bosses will make u uncomfortable.

It is also a game about learning and using experience. It does reward you directly, but it also destroys the process.

You don't even need to use different cheats for different bosses. Ice, plus non-wall physical collisions and out of loading area. With just these three, congratulations, you've solved everything in the game.

[Guille6785]

if cheese didn't exist I'd see no reason to keep fighting bosses in this game when I could have a much better experience playing a souls game instead

[_zwb]

单人不逃课打苦难蟾蜍少说也得10分钟，你把逃课打法都修复了不是折磨单人玩家吗？再说了，找出这些逃课打法本身就很有意思了，为什么要逼着玩家按照“官方打法”玩游戏？

If you decided to fight Misery Toadstool solo no cheese, then it would at least take you 10 minutes. Patching all the cheese is just gonna make those bosses more like a torture. Plus, discovering those obscure cheese methods itself is very interesting and rewarding, why would you want to force the players onto some "intended way" to play the game?

[Shosuko]

5 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

Personally, I would prefer to fight in different ways based on the characteristics of different bosses in whatever earlyergame or endgame, rather than killing them all in the same way. after all, if you're using the same methodology, what's the point of more content?

 

But we do.  Different bosses have different setups you can use, and some defy them.  You can't do 1 setup for every boss and call it a day.

Yeah it sucks if a player learns something - like Dfly Wall cheese - and stays there BUT that's their game.  This is a side effect of the bosses being quite overwhelming without practicing dedicated techniques to combat them.  The cheese takes the edge off, and if that's enough for them then fine.  If they were more into combat they might have a different go at it after experiencing it enough.  That was my experience.  I did wall cheese, bee oven, lureplant to push AFW into the door or lock him in place and use shootius / slingshot ammo / blow darts, etc etc.  tbh combat just didn't interest me enough anyway, what I enjoyed most was using the different tools at my disposal to disarm them.  That was DS/T to me.  This continued until Wanda came out and I actually dedicated time to fighting as she was a combat character.  I can do bosses several different ways because I've played different characters to their strengths which again I believe is good for the game.  Forcing every character into combat is as bad as forcing everyone to play a combat character...

Its not just that though, when it comes to repeat kills you really need something less tedious.  Charging in and defeating a boss with raw combat potential is fun, but repeating it becomes VERY same~ish.  This is the nature of pve games, its not like Street Fighter where my opponent might try new things to mix me up, every fight with Toad will be the same fight with Toad every time I repeat it unless I can choose to approach it differently.  I feel its at a great balance when the direct combat approach can net the quickest kill, but additional setup can ease up the repetition of it all.

[Cassielu]

55 minutes ago, _zwb said:

discovering those obscure cheese methods itself is very interesting and rewarding

Where is the "discover"? It's already over, you just need to bring the problem into the universal formula and things will be solved, and not once in ten updates will there be a new cheese for the player to discover.

Beside. We all know that at least 90% of the people who use them just copy it from a video site, and most of them have no idea what it is.

53 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

But we do.

Ah, you may have misunderstood my meaning, they indeed works well in non-cheese playstyle. (Although the number of people who play in this style is in the minority) When I say "ways" I also include cheese and repeat kills, I prefer that we farm/cheese different bosses in different ways.

The queen bee oven, the dragonfly wall (if it's what I think it is, it's actually the structure in the gap in the wall that works) and the lureplant AF are all based on the same thing. ——Mobs won't steer clear of anything but walls. From the point of view of the cheese player the difference between them are very small.

What I've shown in my video is an even bigger example, where you can use it to kill all bosses on the surface except shadow chess without having to make any adjustments.

[Masked Koopa]

I kind of prefer cheese when it uses more explicitly required mechanics in unintended or unexpected ways, because they feel like rewards for using the mechanics in an interesting way. I'm much less of a fan of these pathfinding jank glitches, because they feel more like the result of an issue that also just causes general jank for the game. The result of mobs not pathfinding around lureplants may give us the funny FW glitch, but it also means that your followers will get stuck trying to walk through two very clearly impassable objects.

IMO patching a cheese method should be done sparingly, but I don't think fixing a bug should be treated in the same way. I think if the bug brings something valuable to the table, it would be more productive to discuss an "intentional" implementation of the bug as a game mechanic, like via a new item or structure.

An example in regards to obstructing mobs could be an idea i've brought up before, where walls have a "tier" system, and each mob has an associated tier. If the mob is below that tier, it cannot break or damage the wall. So a spider would perhaps be unable to break a wooden wall, while a warrior spider might require a stone wall to keep out, while hounds would require thulecite, and a vargling would require moonrock. Something like that.

[Capybara007]

crazy and revolutionary idea, instead of considering cheese the intended way, lets make klei rework bosses to be actually fun and enjoyable 

[Hupo]

事实上，应该允许其他人选择自己的游玩方法。当然，希望修复某些bug不是一件坏事，但是在那之前，不应该苛求别人用固定的方式玩游戏。如果我不喜欢逃课，我只会要求自己全部用常规方法去打，而不是对其他的游戏方式提出批评。

In fact, we should allow others to choose their own game style. Of course, fixing the bugs is not bad. But before that, we should not force others to play the game in a specific way. If I don't like cheese, I'll just ask myself to play the game in a specific way rather than criticizing others.

[WarmDST]

18 minutes ago, Hupo said:

事实上，应该允许其他人选择自己的游玩方法。当然，希望修复某些bug不是一件坏事，但是在那之前，不应该苛求别人用固定的方式玩游戏。如果我不喜欢逃课，我只会要求自己全部用常规方法去打，而不是对其他的游戏方式提出批评。

In fact, we should allow others to choose their own game style. Of course, fixing the bugs is not bad. But before that, we should not force others to play the game in a specific way. If I don't like cheese, I'll just ask myself to play the game in a specific way rather than criticizing others.

没有想让他改，就是有人说帖子会被锁我随便找了个话题水一下，反正肯定这事件之后都要退坑了，改了影响也不大

[Hupo]

Just now, WarmDST said:

没有想让他改，就是有人说帖子会被锁我随便找了个话题水一下，反正肯定这事件之后都要退坑了，改了影响也不大

那这大可不必，退坑也大可不必，该玩玩。

[lan JPG]

8 hours ago, _zwb said:

单人不逃课打苦难蟾蜍少说也得10分钟，你把逃课打法都修复了不是折磨单人玩家吗？再说了，找出这些逃课打法本身就很有意思了，为什么要逼着玩家按照“官方打法”玩游戏？

If you decided to fight Misery Toadstool solo no cheese, then it would at least take you 10 minutes. Patching all the cheese is just gonna make those bosses more like a torture. Plus, discovering those obscure cheese methods itself is very interesting and rewarding, why would you want to force the players onto some "intended way" to play the game?

10分钟？我上次使用温蒂骑战斗牛去打99999蟾蜍花费了10天以上以及大量的法杖和旋风，这也让我第一次意识到klei只留了5天的回档是完全不够用的

[_zwb]

2 hours ago, lan JPG said:

10分钟？我上次使用温蒂骑战斗牛去打99999蟾蜍花费了10天以上以及大量的法杖和旋风，这也让我第一次意识到klei只留了5天的回档是完全不够用的

我说的是"少说”啊...

这个有人做到过的，之前蟾蜍血量还是156000的时候就有人五分钟内打死了（单人）