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Please remove the damage reduction mechanic.


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I wanted to be very short and to the point on this one. There is genuinely no good reason to have enemies that become damage sponges like this. It wasn't a good idea in Binding of Isaac and it is arguably an even worse idea here.

I get what you were going for, but this just isn't it. Please believe me when I say damage reduction doesn't add challenge, it only adds tedium. And I mean ONLY tedium. If you're going to make the enemies tanky, you might as well just have their HP properly represented (for those using mods that show HP, that is). Just... have the plants show like 5,000 HP instead of pretending their health is 500.

Potential alternative: If you MUST do damage reduction, at least do it like the Royal Guards in Hamlet, where they wear actual armor that can be broken. .

But really, the best solution is to not do it at all. I know this can seem like a good way to raise the stakes on paper, but I promise... I PROMISE it does nothing of the sort. Please, let's not go down this road. Or at least go down it in a more interesting way.

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This way adds actual progression to the game by incentivizing players to use Brightshade gear to fight the new planar mobs. Giving deadly brightshades 5k health is not going to accomplish that because we already have so many methods of hitting hard and it'll just amount to more of the same power creep that we've been seeing for years.

If you look at the planardefense conversion formula you'll see exactly what they wanted to do with this new mechanic, and that was to reduce more proportionately from regular damage the higher you go. It's Klei's direct answer to the issue of power creep. Your suggestion of giving these enemies type weaknesses is EXACTLY what the Brightshade sword offers.

You want to fight the new mobs? You gotta get the new gear. This is how survival game progression has worked for a very long time.

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41 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

This way adds actual progression to the game by incentivizing players to use Brightshade gear to fight the new planar mobs. Giving deadly brightshades 5k health is not going to accomplish that because we already have so many methods of hitting hard and it'll just amount to more of the same power creep that we've been seeing for years.

If you look at the planardefense conversion formula you'll see exactly what they wanted to do with this new mechanic, and that was to reduce more proportionately from regular damage the higher you go. It's Klei's direct answer to the issue of power creep. Your suggestion of giving these enemies type weaknesses is EXACTLY what the Brightshade sword offers.

You want to fight the new mobs? You gotta get the new gear. This is how survival game progression has worked for a very long time.

i am with you in this, but i think in the future we will need some new shadow gear that have planar mechanic, because that can be limitating thinking on maxwell kit for an example
or an new shadow weapon that have an new crazy effect, like to be a two way deal in this war

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I think what makes the BrightShade a tank is that it has 1000hp instead of plane resist.

In most weapons, you can think of it as 55% protection. It's only when you use crazy damage multiples that things are different.

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58 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

This way adds actual progression to the game by incentivizing players to use Brightshade gear to fight the new planar mobs. Giving deadly brightshades 5k health is not going to accomplish that because we already have so many methods of hitting hard and it'll just amount to more of the same power creep that we've been seeing for years.

If you look at the planardefense conversion formula you'll see exactly what they wanted to do with this new mechanic, and that was to reduce more proportionately from regular damage the higher you go. It's Klei's direct answer to the issue of power creep. Your suggestion of giving these enemies type weaknesses is EXACTLY what the Brightshade sword offers.

You want to fight the new mobs? You gotta get the new gear. This is how survival game progression has worked for a very long time.

That runs counter to basically everything the game has done by this point. DST isn't about "only one solution" to a problem. It's about improvising and finding your own way to handle things. There are certainly commonalities and throughlines, but nothing that feels this stifling and arbitrary.

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41 minutes ago, Ryusuta said:

That runs counter to basically everything the game has done by this point. DST isn't about "only one solution" to a problem. It's about improvising and finding your own way to handle things. There are certainly commonalities and throughlines, but nothing that feels this stifling and arbitrary.

The new sword and bombs are currently the only ways to circumvent the planardefense but I highly doubt that will remain the case. As mentioned above, shadow weapons and abilities have the potential of eventually offering more options for overcoming planar defense, and I would hope that we will encourage this type of progression over just making regular weapons more effective.

Edit: While this is certainly a deviation from previous progression in the game I think it is a step in the right direction, and while it may seem stifling at this early stage of development I am very confident that as more content gets introduced we will find many more options for fighting Brightshades.

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1 hour ago, JazzyGames said:

The new sword and bombs are currently the only ways to circumvent the planardefense but I highly doubt that will remain the case. As mentioned above, shadow weapons and abilities have the potential of eventually offering more options for overcoming planar defense, and I would hope that we will encourage this type of progression over just making regular weapons more effective.

Edit: While this is certainly a deviation from previous progression in the game I think it is a step in the right direction, and while it may seem stifling at this early stage of development I am very confident that as more content gets introduced we will find many more options for fighting Brightshades.

That seems to be... EXTREMELY optimistic speculation on your part. I've genuinely never seen a game do this sort of thing in a way that feels fun, and I really doubt this will be an exception. I've certainly been given no reason to feel that will be the case.

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idk, there are a lot of ways to do progression.  Currently progression in DST is largely on the player skill side of things.  There is a limit to player skill in a non-pvp game as once you've learned the content you know it, its done.  I don't think its bad that they're looking at some other ways to do progression, but I don't think this is a good approach.

The biggest issue is that it feels extremely tacked on, artificial and arbitrary compared to the rest of the game.  Even accounting for the fact that a lot of content is likely to follow this, its still something you only see after completing the game's biggest quest chain.  Go through everything, shadow pieces, afw, ck, cc, possibly 200-500 days of game time and THEN you find some new element?  Its so binary too, just instantly your armor is worthless and your damage is nerfed until you get the new gear...  This runs so counter to the game as you've played it so far that it feels out of left field.

AND once you have the new gear, what is actually different?  So you equip x sword instead of y sword, and not because you wanted to but b/c the game made you...  then what?  Combat is still combat.  Count your attacks, dodge and repeat...

How it messes with character perks really doesn't sit well with me either...  Like Wonkey, I really don't like the idea that your character perks which are central to your choice of who to play are getting messed with...  Again this feels really arbitrary why Wolfgang suddenly loses his damage boost, like why play him if this is where the game goes?  I already thought Maxwell's rework was oppressive on the rest of the cast, but with this?  Why play anyone else?

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17 hours ago, JazzyGames said:

This way adds actual progression to the game by incentivizing players to use Brightshade gear to fight the new planar mobs.

The game already has progression.

And the quasi-quest progression is kinda nice:

  • Get this item in order to fight this boss
  • Beat that boss to get an item to fight the next boss

Because these are just open-world tasks that you can do whenever you like.

And as the game progresses you just get more and more options—like in all open-world games.

But then all of a sudden your options shrink because you are fighting a new post-CC enemy…?

I mean FW has his invincibility. How do you beat that? By wearing a nightmare amulet or eating Glommer Goop.

You weren’t stopped when you came to FW with a sign that said Please Equip The Epic Nightmare Boss Sword.

And the fight is better off for it because it just uses a mechanic that’s been in the game since the start.

In fact this reminds me of the Wolfgang rework. He used to have an interesting, simple mechanic—it’s just about the hunger. Done. But since he was “OP” and because (I guess) food is easy (“power creep”) they had to bloat his design with a bicep meter. Which in its initial version only caused tedium because it was old Wolfgang with one extra step (AFK). So what they did do? They buffed him to the point where his gameplay now is “press <action> (like mining) or F to get mighty”—he’s now just a slightly more difficult Wigfrid.

Sometimes the developers introduce something to counteract “OP” and just make things either more convoluted or eventually easier.

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Giving deadly brightshades 5k health is not going to accomplish that because we already have so many methods of hitting hard and it'll just amount to more of the same power creep that we've been seeing for years.

FW isn’t difficult because of the health pool.

Do you want more interesting gameplay? Introduce more mechanics or ways for existing ones to interact. Maybe only post-CC. If it weren’t for Wanda maybe you could introduce an old-age mechanic. Or maybe a disease mechanic—not plant disease!—like in Hamlet.

But this “planar” stuff isn’t shaping into a mechanic. It’s just the developers using entity stats (“this health pool is post-CC”) in order to segment gameplay.

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more of the same power creep that we've been seeing for years.

On one hand, people (who knows? just people) say that they don’t want DST to be like an RPG where you can become a demigod and slaughter early-game “content”. On the other hand, these same people seem to be totally receptive to the most dull, uninspired, and grind-inducing RPG-like design where you just label stuff “chaos armor” and “chaos weapons”.

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If you look at the planardefense conversion formula you'll see exactly what they wanted to do with this new mechanic, and that was to reduce more proportionately from regular damage the higher you go. It's Klei's direct answer to the issue of power creep. Your suggestion of giving these enemies type weaknesses is EXACTLY what the Brightshade sword offers.

Developers using hacks to paper over past decisions is competely normal but not something to be celebrated.

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46 minutes ago, abrocator said:

The game already has progression.

And the quasi-quest progression is kinda nice:

  • Get this item in order to fight this boss
  • Beat that boss to get an item to fight the next boss

Because these are just open-world tasks that you can do whenever you like.

And as the game progresses you just get more and more options—like in all open-world games.

But then all of a sudden your options shrink because you are fighting a new post-CC enemy…?

I mean FW has his invincibility. How do you beat that? By wearing a nightmare amulet or eating Glommer Goop.

You weren’t stopped when you came to FW with a sign that said Please Equip The Epic Nightmare Boss Sword.

And the fight is better off for it because it just uses a mechanic that’s been in the game since the start.

In fact this reminds me of the Wolfgang rework. He used to have an interesting, simple mechanic—it’s just about the hunger. Done. But since he was “OP” and because (I guess) food is easy (“power creep”) they had to bloat his design with a bicep meter. Which in its initial version only caused tedium because it was old Wolfgang with one extra step (AFK). So what they did do? They buffed him to the point where his gameplay now is “press <action> (like mining) or F to get mighty”—he’s now just a slightly more difficult Wigfrid.

Sometimes the developers introduce something to counteract “OP” and just make things either more convoluted or eventually easier.

Man decided to cook and made a five star meal

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37 minutes ago, abrocator said:

Developers using hacks to paper over past decisions is competely normal but not something to be celebrated.

I…don’t know how to respond to this. I was explaining why I think Klei went this route as opposed to just adding new mobs with more HP and stronger attacks. You seem to be trying to invalidate that point by implying that I’m white-knighting but I honestly can’t tell.

Also, I must have missed the part where deadly brightshades are completely impervious to damage from regular damage sources, holding up a sign that reads “You MUST use the Brightshade sword.” By all means, kill them with any weapon you want, it’ll just take longer. Nothing has been gear-gated but there are better options than others. That’s all there is, my guy.

54 minutes ago, abrocator said:

The game already has progression

Boy I really hope you understood that I wasn’t claiming the game didn’t have actual progression. The point was that higher HP enemies in and of themselves don’t add progression, but providing better options for dealing specifically with them does.

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25 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

I…don’t know how to respond to this. I was explaining why I think Klei went this route as opposed to just adding new mobs with more HP and stronger attacks. You seem to be trying to invalidate that point by implying that I’m white-knighting but I honestly can’t tell.

White-knighting is besides the point.

I’m saying that you are wrong because your arguments don’t hold up, not invalidating your arguments based on which team (I never said that?) you happen to be cheering for.

25 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

Also, I must have missed the part where deadly brightshades are completely impervious to damage from regular damage sources, holding up a sign that reads “You MUST use the Brightshade sword.”

Yes, you missed the “hyperbole” sign.

25 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

Boy I really hope you understood that I wasn’t claiming the game didn’t have actual progression.

That would be one way to interpret “actually”, as in “for once”. But I forgot that the modern English vernacular style is to use apparent emphasis like “literally” and “actually” when it in actuality means literally nothing.[1]

But it’s not like that even actually matters to my response; the game has already, for years, added progression to the game through nice, non-grindy means without having to resort to stat mumbo-jumbo, exemplified (e.g.) by the FW (c.f. your “but you cannot just give it 5K health”—so get creative and invent new mechanisms (devs), since you have after all done it before).

[1] Here’s one way to rewrite that paragraph for us ESLs:

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The current approach adds progression to the game by incentivizing players to use Brightshade gear to fight the new planar mobs. On the other hand, giving brightshades 5k health is not going to add progression to the game because we already have so many methods of hitting hard and it'll just amount to more of the same power creep that we've been seeing for years.

Less ambiguity.

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4 hours ago, JazzyGames said:

I…don’t know how to respond to this. I was explaining why I think Klei went this route as opposed to just adding new mobs with more HP and stronger attacks. You seem to be trying to invalidate that point by implying that I’m white-knighting but I honestly can’t tell.

Also, I must have missed the part where deadly brightshades are completely impervious to damage from regular damage sources, holding up a sign that reads “You MUST use the Brightshade sword.” By all means, kill them with any weapon you want, it’ll just take longer. Nothing has been gear-gated but there are better options than others. That’s all there is, my guy.

We understand that. The point that is being made is that it's a poor way of adding new challenges to the game. it doesn't make the game harder, it doesn't incentivize experimentation, it is 100% there ONLY to add tedium. Tedium from farming the equipment and/or tedium from fighting without it. Take your pick.

And as you said, you don't technically NEED to get the new gear, but if anything that's even worse. It's like the worst of both worlds. The point of new gear is making you WANT to use it; not feel like the game is intentionally annoying you until you're browbeaten into doing so. At that point, you might as well just gear-gate things for all the good it does.

People aren't farming the new equipment because it opens up new ways to play the game and new benefits for using it. They're using it to make one annoyance slightly less annoying. And some people are actively avoiding progressing in the game past CC now because of just how obnoxious that new annoyance is.

I'm sorry, but there is nothing good that this has added at all.

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40 minutes ago, Ryusuta said:

We understand that. The point that is being made is that it's a poor way of adding new challenges to the game. it doesn't make the game harder, it doesn't incentivize experimentation, it is 100% there ONLY to add tedium. Tedium from farming the equipment and/or tedium from fighting without it. Take your pick.

And as you said, you don't technically NEED to get the new gear, but if anything that's even worse. It's like the worst of both worlds. The point of new gear is making you WANT to use it; not feel like the game is intentionally annoying you until you're browbeaten into doing so. At that point, you might as well just gear-gate things for all the good it does.

People aren't farming the new equipment because it opens up new ways to play the game and new benefits for using it. They're using it to make one annoyance slightly less annoying. And some people are actively avoiding progressing in the game past CC now because of just how obnoxious that new annoyance is.

I'm sorry, but there is nothing good that this has added at all.

I can’t speak for any other player, only myself. I looks forward to unlocking the new sword for fights against shadow mobs like Nightmare Werepig, Ancient Guardian, Fuelweaver, shadow pieces, and clockworks ruins. I look forward to using bombs that bounce around damaging enemies, and I look forward to finally having a single tool for clearing everything in the ruins.

You can choose to be pessimistic about the update but for me it keeps getting better. Tonight’s hotfix only reaffirmed that.

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41 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

I look forward to finally having a single tool for clearing everything in the ruins.

I do like that they changed it to include hammer.  Really ANOTHER pick/axe was unnecessary.  However it comes far too late to be that impactful.  I'll have mapped and cleared the ruins already before it shows up.  It will be slightly more convenient, but only passed the point of the convenience being significant.

But its still good - and kinda shows what the problem is with weapon damage.  Having a pick / hammer changes things for us, having a weapon that does basically the same damage as any other weapon but only against xyz mob doesn't.  I mean if you're excited for going out of your way to craft an item post-cc-fight that gives a marginal damage bonus against some mobs, why not use a purple gem and moonrock and swap to different character for a significant damage boost and you can do it from the first time you clear them ?

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4 hours ago, JazzyGames said:

I can’t speak for any other player, only myself. I looks forward to unlocking the new sword for fights against shadow mobs like Nightmare Werepig, Ancient Guardian, Fuelweaver, shadow pieces, and clockworks ruins. I look forward to using bombs that bounce around damaging enemies, and I look forward to finally having a single tool for clearing everything in the ruins.

You can choose to be pessimistic about the update but for me it keeps getting better. Tonight’s hotfix only reaffirmed that.

None of those things you mentioned are relevant to what was being discussed. And the bouncing shots thing was only just added after my original post. And while I know this might seem like a starry-eyed fantasy, I have this crazy idea that we can have the neat new effects AND not have the terrible combat mechanics.

I'm glad that you are enjoying the update. It's perfectly okay to be optimistic, but that also doesn't mean you have to pretend every decision they make is a good one. Being enthusiastic and offering criticism are not mutually exclusive.

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11 hours ago, abrocator said:

I mean FW has his invincibility. How do you beat that? By wearing a nightmare amulet or eating Glommer Goop.

This is actually kind of funny, because you're exactly right but probably not how you intended.
Yes, something like Fuelweaver already has this—a 'requirement' to taking on the content.

It's just the way it's presented feels more like a choice than the Planar system.

It's actually basic psychology—people tend to be happier with a choice they think they made themselves, then one they think they didn't.

At the end of the day it's plain silly when you break it down, but maybe it's an aspect worth considering.

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17 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

This is actually kind of funny, because you're exactly right but probably not how you intended.
Yes, something like Fuelweaver already has this—a 'requirement' to taking on the content.

It's just the way it's presented feels more like a choice than the Planar system.

It's actually basic psychology—people tend to be happier with a choice they think they made themselves, then one they think they didn't.

At the end of the day it's plain silly when you break it down, but maybe it's an aspect worth considering.

No one is claiming there isn't any progression or locked-off content in the game. Nor is anyone saying that locking off things behind progression is a bad thing.

You're right that psychology does have some impact in this as well. When you create organic progression with obstacles for the character to overcome in order to get prizes they want to have, it creates a sense of pride and accomplishment for doing so. the Enlightened Crown feels like a worthwhile prize not only because it's a fantastic item in its own right, but also because of the massive laundry list it takes to finally get it. It's exciting. It's a reward. It has a benefit that has application that reaches even farther than its immediate acquisition.

The Brightshade equipment, by contrast, is just... equipment. It does nothing special, fun, or interesting. And not only does it require MORE progression than even the Crown to reach in the default settings, but its only true purpose is to solve the problem you've already solved when you got the armor in the first place.

Even if they changed the equipment to glow in the dark (as they should), it would still just be equipment that glows and makes it easier to fight the things you had to fight dozens of times in order to get the items to begin with. It boggles the mind.

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47 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

This is actually kind of funny, because you're exactly right but probably not how you intended.
Yes, something like Fuelweaver already has this—a 'requirement' to taking on the content.

This is indeed a comparison and I wouldn’t be making a comparison if they were nothing alike at all.

The FW requirement is a good requirement, unlike this new “planar” stuff.

48 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

It's just the way it's presented feels more like a choice than the Planar system.

sigh It’s a well-designed hurdle since it gives you multiple options (I’ve mentioned two) and it relies on a ten year old mechanic instead of introducing a new hidden stat out of the blue which adds nothing to the gameplay.

52 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

It's actually basic psychology—people tend to be happier with a choice they think they made themselves, then one they think they didn't.

Aha you see you were tricked into having fun in the game.

Give me a break, Mertens.

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1 hour ago, Zeklo said:

This is actually kind of funny, because you're exactly right but probably not how you intended.
Yes, something like Fuelweaver already has this—a 'requirement' to taking on the content.

It's just the way it's presented feels more like a choice than the Planar system.

It's actually basic psychology—people tend to be happier with a choice they think they made themselves, then one they think they didn't.

At the end of the day it's plain silly when you break it down, but maybe it's an aspect worth considering.

Fake choices?  What fake choices does AFW have? 

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17 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Fake choices?  What fake choices does AFW have? 

I've only fought the lad a few times, but—Orange staff for cage, Purple Amulet for shield, & Weather Pain for minions (solo), right?

It may as well be the entry fee.

Sure you can do without, it would be just less efficient. You'd need extra armor & healing for the extra hits it'll get. Which isn't all that different from the Brightshade situation, right? I mean, especially after their nerf it's hardly a chore at all, but if we consider hypothetical other enemies and bosses, the essentials are still the same.

If you don't take the items that will overcome/lighten the mechanics -> it'll take longer/you'll need extra generic gear.

Same, yeah?
It's just the way the content is presented feels a bit worse. Since it's all behind the scene numbers rather than something a bit flashier.

~~~

On a different [but similar] note, I know there's a little shield visual but honestly I think a good sound effect could really help get the concept of Planar across. Right now the little shield bubble just seems like a neat hit animation for these enemies over a proper shield mechanic.

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18 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

It's just the way the content is presented feels a bit worse. Since it's all behind the scene numbers rather than something a bit flashier.

I agree: if we disregard whether something is fun to play and if it is good design or not, they’re the same thing.

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28 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

I've only fought the lad a few times, but—Orange staff for cage, Purple Amulet for shield, & Weather Pain for minions (solo), right?

It may as well be the entry fee.

Sure you can do without, it would be just less efficient. You'd need extra armor & healing for the extra hits it'll get. Which isn't all that different from the Brightshade situation, right? I mean, especially after their nerf it's hardly a chore at all, but if we consider hypothetical other enemies and bosses, the essentials are still the same.

If you don't take the items that will overcome/lighten the mechanics -> it'll take longer/you'll need extra generic gear.

Orange staff, purple amulet, and weather pains is 1 way to do it but its not the only way - and despite what you have been lead to believe, the other options are just fine.  You can use sanity food items rather than switching gear around, and you can just tank through most of the bone cages.  The woven shadows can be dealt with through kiting, which is definitely my preferred method b/c I enjoy it and would rather not need so many down feathers.  There are also some character specific techs you can employ.

Compared to the new content which doesn't just hard-restrict your gear options it ALSO shuts off character damage perks...

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9 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Compared to the new content which doesn't just hard-restrict your gear options it ALSO shuts off character damage perks...

To be fair, you can still kill the plants with your old equipment. It's just 40% slower. (Unless you are Wanda, in which case the Alarming Clock still deals slightly more DPS to the plants than the Brightshade Sword does.)

The fact it kneecaps every combat perk under the sun is much more worrisome, especially because it appears to be fully intentional and probably the entire point of the planar mechanic. Wolfgang's mighty form is reduced to a measly +11 DMG (+30%), Wigfrid is reduced to about +4 DMG (+7%), Wanda is only marginablly better, and every follower (incl. Abigail, Webber's spiders and Wurt's merms). I guess we're gonna have to start loving combat characters for their personality going forward, cause they sure don't seem like they'll be helping much with actual combat.

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6 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

To be fair, you can still kill the plants with your old equipment. It's just 40% slower. (Unless you are Wanda, in which case the Alarming Clock still deals slightly more DPS to the plants than the Brightshade Sword does.)

The fact it kneecaps every combat perk under the sun is much more worrisome, especially because it appears to be fully intentional and probably the entire point of the planar mechanic. Wolfgang's mighty form is reduced to a measly +11 DMG (+30%), Wigfrid is reduced to about +4 DMG (+7%), Wanda is only marginablly better, and every follower (incl. Abigail, Webber's spiders and Wurt's merms). I guess we're gonna have to start loving combat characters for their personality going forward, cause they sure don't seem like they'll be helping much with actual combat.

Yeah idk what they are doing but so many characters in the roster have combat based mechanics / modifiers (wolfgang, wendy, wes, wanda, wigfrid, warly's chaud froid) that it just seems silly to completely have those not considered while using planar damage dealing weapons.

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