Torch & Beard Tree Underwhelming

[inzecta]

Pretty much what the title says. I do think this Wilson rework is interesting, I think having a skill tree for the guy who's supposed to be sort of a default jack-of-all-trades fits in a way. But as it stands there is one skill tree that totally outshines the other three being the Alchemy tree.

I'm going to be frank here, very few people are going to use the torch one. The torch is a tool that is so quickly replaced by the lantern, even newer players usually stop using the torch pretty early once they figure out the lanterns. The only interesting part about it is being able to throw it but I think that would be better served as a default ability for all characters.

As for the beard tree, well. It's a neat idea. The beard has been Wilson's "thing" since the games inception. But again, it's perks are underwhelming. Being able to store food in it, just three measly slots at that, does not really justify spending any points on the thing and the insulation bonus isn't exactly attractive either.

Both of these trees absolutely pale in comparison to the utility and power of the alchemy tree which is what 90% of people are going to use compared to the other two. Sure, being able to throw a torch and store some extra food is a novelty that might have some niche uses, but it doesn't really feel like your choice between these benefits matters when half of them just feel like extra point dumps that give you a little something extra.

If I'm going to be honest, and I know this would be a major change, the beard and the torch trees need to be reworked entirely. I'd go a little farther and say the torch tree needs to just be flat out replaced. The insight system rewards you for surviving longer, but surviving longer means you're going to be using the torch less and less as you gain access to more tools. In the mid-late game lighting things on fire is about it's only use but even that gets drastically less useful once you have a star caller's staff. I do not think the torch is an item that warrants an entire skill tree and from my perspective it seems to conflict with the purpose of insight. It will be attractive to newer players who don't understand the game yet and are scared of the darkness, but then if they survive long enough they'll find that the torch has very little use anymore and might wonder why they bothered spending those insight points on it in the first place,

[Mike23Ua]

I’m not sure what way you play the game but I still use torches very regularly and that’s even AFTER getting a lantern or Miners Hat.

A lantern can’t be used to burn things, why do I need to burn things?? Charcoal, Ashes, Staying Warm in Winter when I forget to get warm gear- you name it.. and a Lanterns Not gonna do it.

what do I need Charcoal & Ashes for? Charcoal to create Cooking Pots, Ashes for both Healing Salves & Wendy’s Sisturns.

Again, things a Lantern aren’t going to provide.

I think the skill tree could actually be used to “Replace” needing a lantern, if it was as useful as one, lasting as long as, shining as bright as + still being able to do the above “Burning” features a Lantern won’t do.

As for the Beard skill tree.. it just feels fitting to me for a Survivalist trope. Warmth/Food Storage both sound hilariously cartoony and I love it!

[inzecta]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m not sure what way you play the game but I still use torches very regularly and that’s even AFTER getting a lantern or Miners Hat.

A lantern can’t be used to burn things, why do I need to burn things?? Charcoal, Ashes, Staying Warm in Winter when I forget to get warm gear- you name it.. and a Lanterns Not gonna do it.

what do I need Charcoal & Ashes for? Charcoal to create Cooking Pots, Ashes for both Healing Salves & Wendy’s Sisturns.

Again, things a Lantern aren’t going to provide.

I think the skill tree could actually be used to “Replace” needing a lantern, if it was as useful as one, lasting as long as, shining as bright as + still being able to do the above “Burning” features a Lantern won’t do.

As for the Beard skill tree.. it just feels fitting to me for a Survivalist trope. Warmth/Food Storage both sound hilariously cartoony and I love it!

It does not seem like you read my post very thoroughly, because I never once state the lantern is a full replacement for the torch and also state that the torch still retains usefulness into the mid-late game for burning things. I did not say it becomes useless once you get things like the lantern and the star caller's staff, I said it becomes less useful. An item that is reduced to two uses in the mid-late game, burning and staying warm, the latter of which is further diminished by things like the star caller's staff, does not warrant a full skill tree. You can do everything you need to with a torch without any upgrades at all, dedicating a whole portion of a characters rework to it isn't very useful.

As for the beard, I agree, it fits with the character. But it should be more useful, last I heard the beard doesn't even change the spoilage rate of the food it holds in it's tiny three slots. The insulation bonus isn't that significant either.

My philosophy for characters/reworks in general is that they all should have something unique that only they can do and provides a unique and useful benefit. The torch and the beard don't strike me as that considering the torch is just as useful without upgrades and the game already gives you tools that do what beard storage does but better.

[GodIess]

36 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m not sure what way you play the game but I still use torches very regularly and that’s even AFTER getting a lantern or Miners Hat.

A lantern can’t be used to burn things, why do I need to burn things?? Charcoal, Ashes, Staying Warm in Winter when I forget to get warm gear- you name it.. and a Lanterns Not gonna do it.

what do I need Charcoal & Ashes for? Charcoal to create Cooking Pots, Ashes for both Healing Salves & Wendy’s Sisturns.

Again, things a Lantern aren’t going to provide.

I think the skill tree could actually be used to “Replace” needing a lantern, if it was as useful as one, lasting as long as, shining as bright as + still being able to do the above “Burning” features a Lantern won’t do.

As for the Beard skill tree.. it just feels fitting to me for a Survivalist trope. Warmth/Food Storage both sound hilariously cartoony and I love it!

 equip / fire / unequip the only use of the torch after receiving another light source

[Primalflower]

2 hours ago, inzecta said:

I'm going to be frank here, very few people are going to use the torch one. The torch is a tool that is so quickly replaced by the lantern, even newer players usually stop using the torch pretty early once they figure out the lanterns. The only interesting part about it is being able to throw it but I think that would be better served as a default ability for all characters.

I'm gonna be honest, the lantern sucks to use. It feels much worse than it may come off on paper to go into the caves and through a loading screen in order to get a handful of lightbulbs/however many it might take for you to last until they rot, and then instantly go back and through another loading screen. The moment I got the torch skill with wilson i instantly abandoned my lantern for several dozen days at a time, only using it whenever a few skittersquids came by and I could refuel it that way. Grass and Twigs are simply more convenient, once you have the skills that make torches last longer/brighter/throwable.

[inzecta]

6 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I'm gonna be honest, the lantern sucks to use. It feels much worse than it may come off on paper to go into the caves and through a loading screen in order to get a handful of lightbulbs/however many it might take for you to last until they rot, and then instantly go back and through another loading screen. The moment I got the torch skill with wilson i instantly abandoned my lantern for several dozen days at a time, only using it whenever a few skittersquids came by and I could refuel it that way. Grass and Twigs are simply more convenient, once you have the skills that make torches last longer/brighter/throwable.

Understandable, but this is also a very minor issue. Two loading screens isn't really that big of a deal and you can also just take the time to do other things in the caves instead of just going back and forth instantly. It's fine if you personally prefer the torch but I don't think the torches benefits are really all that, just make the torch throwable for everyone.

[Primalflower]

29 minutes ago, inzecta said:

Understandable, but this is also a very minor issue.

I get the sentiment, and again, on paper, two loading screens isnt a big deal. But from a human perspective, the torch buffs that wilson receives are single handedly making the lantern obsolete for me, maybe others too. I don't disagree with the notion that everyone should be able to throw torches, or maybe just, sort of peg them into the ground to achieve the same effect, but I just thought it would be worth emphasizing my feelings about the first thing.

[Spirit Glow]

He should have been given more beard hair related recipes imo. 

 

As far as the torch tree goes, it will probably be a tree that i never use unfortunately. 

[inzecta]

Going to add a suggestion to this thread but in my opinion:

If people want to retain the torch benefits, that's fine. But there shouldn't be an entire dedicated to JUST the torch. After thinking on it more I've come to the conclusion that while the torch and beard are underwhelming, its not really the main issue. The issue is that you have four choices, one that is clearly better than all the others, one that requires you to beat major bosses(for a lackluster reward) and the other two are torch and beard. I don't think your choices should be limited to just Torch, Alchemy, Beard. Two of those categories make sense for the character, one feels tacked on.

But I wouldn't mind the torch benefits if it wasn't part of a "torch tree", just something part of a larger "survival" tree that you could pick and choose from. But making the skill tree too large might make Wilson too powerful overtime, but Alchemy is already pretty damn strong.

In all honesty, I think this entire idea needs to be taken back to the drawing board. The tree should not be limited to completely unbalanced paths. The point of a skill tree is that you're free to build however you like, but with the alchemy tab the vast majority of players aren't going to give a damn about anything else because who honestly cares when you can transmute iridescent gems.

It's already been mentioned but the dreadstone armor is also underwhelming, and while the new boss is cool it also feels extremely tacked on. The way it was just dropped into the overworld, no arena or biome or specific spawn point. Then just plopped down into the mud biome when enough people asked. The wilson rework and the new boss should have been in completely separate updates because the more I think on it the more both ideas seem incredibly half-baked.

 

[ADM]

The big problem I have is to get a alrighty bright torch or to have a barely noticeable (even after the buff) more durable torch… you need to spend 3 skill points into one of those branch, it’s a lot when compared to what even 1 point does in the alchemy category. I think double durability should be the first skill, not the last for the left path.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

12 hours ago, Primalflower said:

I'm gonna be honest, the lantern sucks to use. It feels much worse than it may come off on paper to go into the caves and through a loading screen in order to get a handful of lightbulbs/however many it might take for you to last until they rot, and then instantly go back and through another loading screen. The moment I got the torch skill with wilson i instantly abandoned my lantern for several dozen days at a time, only using it whenever a few skittersquids came by and I could refuel it that way. Grass and Twigs are simply more convenient, once you have the skills that make torches last longer/brighter/throwable.

you can make dozens of lanterns and refill then once per year. I never have 1 single lantern, is silly and a waste of time when you can have some and switch when is low

[loopuleasa]

22 hours ago, Primalflower said:

I'm gonna be honest, the lantern sucks to use.

No.

[Antynomity]

On 3/8/2023 at 2:01 AM, Primalflower said:

I'm gonna be honest, the lantern sucks to use. It feels much worse than it may come off on paper to go into the caves and through a loading screen in order to get a handful of lightbulbs/however many it might take for you to last until they rot, and then instantly go back and through another loading screen. The moment I got the torch skill with wilson i instantly abandoned my lantern for several dozen days at a time, only using it whenever a few skittersquids came by and I could refuel it that way. Grass and Twigs are simply more convenient, once you have the skills that make torches last longer/brighter/throwable.

you can just... get a chest... or two... or however many you want of lanterns and every so often just top all of them off

[Wonz]

I like how grass and twigs don't rot.  

I don't like going underground because my bulb has rotten. It takes two loading screens and spawn protection from batilisks is done badly, players on bad machines will still die before the loading screen is over.

Invulnerability should last until we move or so bats can't see us our character should pop out of sinkhole when we input movement just like we pop from tents. 

[Primalflower]

7 hours ago, yourAnty said:

you can just... get a chest... or two... or however many you want of lanterns and every so often just top all of them off

this also sucks and doesnt feel good for me. not to say you're at fault for mentioning it, it just. doesn't feel good either for me. Its either torch throwing or the enlightened crown, for me!

[Mike23Ua]

5 hours ago, Wonz said:

I like how grass and twigs don't rot.  

I don't like going underground because my bulb has rotten. It takes two loading screens and spawn protection from batilisks is done badly, players on bad machines will still die before the loading screen is over.

Invulnerability should last until we move or so bats can't see us our character should pop out of sinkhole when we input movement just like we pop from tents. 

You can get bulbs on the surface, from Skittersquid, and more recently- Crustashine, & the A Little Drama Stage.

Actually, you can skip making a lantern altogether if you can find and farm this set piece for free Miners Hats.

https://dontstarve.fandom.com/wiki/Crustashine

These little dudes spit out endlessly from an Unnatural Portal.. 

[Primalflower]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

https://dontstarve.fandom.com/wiki/Crustashine

These little dudes spit out endlessly from an Unnatural Portal.. 

at a very slow and uneven rate. also they don't come out of the unnatural portal unless you're there allowing it to exist. they dont just build up there.

[Wonz]

18 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

You can get bulbs on the surface, from Skittersquid, and more recently- Crustashine, & the A Little Drama Stage.

Actually, you can skip making a lantern altogether if you can find and farm this set piece for free Miners Hats.

https://dontstarve.fandom.com/wiki/Crustashine

These little dudes spit out endlessly from an Unnatural Portal.. 

Dude for real told me to go to monkey island or wait for rare RNG squids who move fast and fight back like it weren't more bothersome than going underground.