New Maxwell ballance idea

[edulopes]

1- remove the damage part from each Tier of shadow equipment
2- add an intermidiate buff in shadow manipulator ( 30/35 damage? or even 40?)
3- add an full buff to 50/55 damage shadow duellists to forbidden knolowage from archives
4- Add the ability to do shadow pillars on a forbidden knolowage from the archives
5-if want maxwell still get specific equip, make this the base codex umbra usage timer, then when you add the equip you can spam your shadow duellists and OR all your magic faster, have to see if shadow prision become's too op if those timers goes down.
what you guys think?

buffing the overwall damage,  buffing the cast timers , but locking it by some knolowage and abilty on the game because you dont need to do any boss, but you need to do lunar staff event
then you can even use the shadow turible just to spawn the shadows wich would be almost instantaneous
then swap back to shadow sword
tier I= 1-> Low speed // 2-> sligth better// 3-> equal tier II
Tier II- mid speed// 2-> sligth better// 3-> equal tier III
tier III- fast speed// 2-> almost instantaneous// tier III+4 instantenous
tier IV Mid Speed
 

or even maybie locking the walls to not being able do lock bosses until you read forbidden knolowage

[Gi-Go]

But why? We already have a very well functioning Maxwell. :-/

[edulopes]

10 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

But why? We already have a very well functioning Maxwell. :-/

those timers for casting are abnoxious...

and for many people dont like using the sets for damage, this would make sets less of an necessety and more of an reward for using it

 

And an little nerf for the prision that people argue so much

[BB Marioni]

highly disagree with a lot of these. Specially with locking an ability to the archives. A lot of players are not "experts", and this would make it waaaayyy to complicated just to unlock an ability. I've never seen any character have this level of difficulty just to be able to use one of their perks. Imagine having to build all 3 celestial altars just to summon abigail, or having to grow a knobby tree to final stage just to be able to craft winona catapults. 
Most of my friends play casually, and have never touched the archives in their entire life. Players like these won't be able to experience Maxwell's abilities ever if this happens.
I'm fine with locking damage to end game content, like what Klei did with the bone armors. This gives more casual players a full experience of all Maxwell's abilities with already decent efficiency, while rewarding more professional players with the maximum DPS they are oh so addicted to. 
I don't get what the issue is with having a couple of gears synergize with Maxwell. Wanda has the same limitations with her watches and yet people are fine with her being "forced" to use these watches and no "freedom" to choose other weapons

[King Maxwell]

20 minutes ago, BB Marioni said:

I don't get what the issue is with having a couple of gears synergize with Maxwell. Wanda has the same limitations with her watches and yet people are fine with her being "forced" to use these watches and no "freedom" to choose other weapons

She is free to choose other weapons, it's just that the watch is so good that there's no reason to. hahahaha
Maxwell is limited in weapon, armor and helmet, yes, they are also good items but still limiting, I for example really like to use Eye Mask and Eyebrella, I believe that adding the progression to the codex would be interesting the first update being done with the manipulator of the shadows is nice since the first update is kind of already done with the shadow handler so it would give the same for the casual ones.

 

11 hours ago, edulopes said:

4- Add the ability to do shadow pillars on a forbidden knolowage from the archives
5-if want maxwell still get specific equip, make this the base codex umbra usage timer, then when you add the equip you can spam your shadow duellists and OR all your magic faster, have to see if shadow prision become's too op if those timers goes down.
what you guys think?

Just no, please, maxwell doesn't need any more restrictions.

[BB Marioni]

52 minutes ago, King Maxwell said:

She is free to choose other weapons, it's just that the watch is so good that there's no reason to. hahahaha
Maxwell is limited in weapon, armor and helmet, yes, they are also good items but still limiting, I for example really like to use Eye Mask and Eyebrella, I believe that adding the progression to the codex would be interesting the first update being done with the manipulator of the shadows is nice since the first update is kind of already done with the shadow handler so it would give the same for the casual ones.

 

Just no, please, maxwell doesn't need any more restrictions.

understandable. Personlly though, I'm fine with the current one. I would still wear diff combinations like eye helm+bone armor+dark sword for example, as even though I won't get the max DPS, I feel like he would still work well and the tradeoff of less puppet dmg for more durability seems a fair tradeoff. 

[Gi-Go]

1 hour ago, King Maxwell said:

Maxwell is limited in weapon, armor and helmet.

No he ain't. If anything - he has the highest equipment variety. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, King Maxwell said:

She is free to choose other weapons, it's just that the watch is so good that there's no reason to. hahahaha
Maxwell is limited in weapon, armor and helmet, yes, they are also good items but still limiting, I for example really like to use Eye Mask and Eyebrella, I believe that adding the progression to the codex would be interesting the first update being done with the manipulator of the shadows is nice since the first update is kind of already done with the shadow handler so it would give the same for the casual ones.

 

Just no, please, maxwell doesn't need any more restrictions.

how is wanda free to choose other weapons but maxwell is limited?

[edulopes]

2 hours ago, BB Marioni said:

A lot of players are not "experts",

and killing fuel weaver is easier by any means?????

2 hours ago, BB Marioni said:

this gives more casual players a full experience of all Maxwell's abilities

it would give almos the same damage, just for building the shadow manipulator

2 hours ago, BB Marioni said:

Wanda has the same limitations with her watches and yet people are fine with her being "forced" to use these watches and no "freedom" to choose other weapons

because they are just OP? better than dark sword in all ways?

[BB Marioni]

3 minutes ago, edulopes said:

and killing fuel weaver is easier by any means?????

 

killing fuel weaver would only increase Maxwell's damage, which is already decent without it, not unlock his shadow pillar spell and whichever other spell. I mentioned It would be fine locking damage increases to end game, not unlocking base abiities.

"because they are just OP? better than dark sword in all ways?" >> we are not looking at the damage of the dark sword itself, but the damage of his puppets when you use a dark sword. the dark sword adds 8dmg per puppet, so that's a +40dmg with 6 duelists. how much dmg does wanda's watch add compared to regular weapons?

[edulopes]

1 hour ago, BB Marioni said:

helm+bone armor+dark sword for example, as even though I won't get the max DPS, I feel like he would still work well and the tradeoff of less puppet dmg for more durability seems a fair tradeoff. 

the turible is always an loss in DPS against the sword, bone helm is less abnoxious to use, but friends can and still will attack the shadows, making it bad for coop, bone armor , you will need an type of armor making the top hat dangerous, making the TC crown the only safe option

meanwhile wanda can safely attack mobs out of their range if they get stuck and or shadow prisioned, use any armor they want etc. 
wolf trade's range for being tanky...
and the list goes on

my on slot gear is the 0 brainer one sword armor and TC, because is the same as i used on wanda, makes any caracter tanky as wolf

1 minute ago, BB Marioni said:

not unlocking base abiities.

well it would lock the abilitie to lock bosses only.

1

2 minutes ago, BB Marioni said:

wanda's watch add compared to regular weapons?

128.8

to dark sword and her clocks that have more than average range, are cheaper than making Dark swords, and got an indirect buff because fuel dosent get wet anymore so they always refuel for full
(as you said some friends you have are casuals i am certain that casuals would not notice it)

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

how is wanda free to choose other weapons but maxwell is limited?

i with you on this one, only young wanda can use all weapons, middle and old wanda can only use shadow sword and or alarming clock, correct me if i am wrong but she can use the TC club too? or only the tentacle damage goes up?

[BB Marioni]

total damage, not additional dmg. AFAIK she can even reach 150 dmg TOTAL. Maxwell with 1 dark sword and 6 puppets will do 168 dmg from puppets+ 68 dmg from sword= 236. It's basically the same as giving Maxwell his own alarming clock.

[edulopes]

Just now, BB Marioni said:

6 puppets

are you counting the terrorbeaks breathing on your neck by not using bone helm?

 

[BB Marioni]

5 minutes ago, edulopes said:

are you counting the terrorbeaks breathing on your neck by not using bone helm?

 

 5 puppets would still net you comparable damage, without being insane. add a night armor/ thulecite and you do waaayy more dmg and still ave the head slot for whatever you want. and that's by having 2-3 options on the armor slot, unlike wanda's literal only 1 weapon that can add her dps.

[edulopes]

counting the best armor for all purposes( that dont involve bone armor)  , being 44 damage, would it be 44 damagex5 =220 damage, wanda every 2 hits deals consistent 256 

my biggest problem is that if you use full end gear your dps would be lower than using a nigth sword that makes no sense to me
 

2 minutes ago, BB Marioni said:

 5 puppets would still net you comparable damage, without being insane. add a night armor/ thulecite and you do waaayy more dmg and still ave the head slot for whatever you want. and that's by having 2-3 options on the armor slot, unlike wanda's literal only 1 weapon that can add her dps.

2 weapons that happened to just be the best of the game, why use other?

1 minute ago, edulopes said:

counting the best armor for all purposes( that dont involve bone armor)  , being 44 damage, would it be 44 damagex5 =220 damage, wanda every 2 hits deals consistent 256 

my biggest problem is that if you use full end gear your dps would be lower than using a nigth sword that makes no sense to me
 

2 weapons that happened to just be the best of the game, why use other?

thus not counting maxwell personal damage, thus also also not counting the time spent to re spawn the shadows, thus not couting that you have to stay relative far from the boss if not you will get damaged or killed, making more losses in gereral DPS by healing etc etc

meanwile wanda have wortox like ability to dodge on demand, range that facilitates bee queen figth, almost cheeses klaus( if not for an nerf would cheese until today) and consistent controlled damage that for an example, if you missplace your duellist in klaus you are doomed...

not counting that for example killing bunnyman, ( horde type mob) i sent shadows to attack them, then they aggroed on me because of the mechanic of changing aggro, ALL of them

so maxwell is strange for horde likes, and his casting timers are terrible, so a change making that maxwell is still tied to gear but it is not obissesively obliged to use it

[ArubaroBeefalo]

20 minutes ago, edulopes said:

correct me if i am wrong but she can use the TC club too? or only the tentacle damage goes up?

sadly, as far as i know, wanda doesnt have any interaction with the club or the tentacles that it spawns. And even if does it won't change anything since AC beats everything... idk why they made AC the best weapon, makes her gameplay flat

 

[edulopes]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

sadly, as far as i know, wanda doesnt have any interaction with the club or the tentacles that it spawns. And even if does it won't change anything since AC beats everything... idk why they made AC the best weapon, makes her gameplay flat

 

AC too "stronk", but oh well, at least it got "buffed"

because i always asked myself why it wont fuel correctly sometimes...
5 k h dst knolowage and you still get surprised to remember some basic stuff

[BB Marioni]

46 minutes ago, edulopes said:

2 weapons that happened to just be the best of the game, why use other?

wouldnt this be the same logic for maxwell? If the tier 3-4 gears are his best gear, why use other? Why is it when it comes to him, you would want a wide variety of options, while with wanda people are OK being locked to 2 weapons?

[edulopes]

12 minutes ago, BB Marioni said:

If the tier 3-4 gears are his best gear,

bone helm and armor are his best gear, dark armor and Tc Crown are his safest gear, turible only is worth it on beefalo, making only dark sword viable

13 minutes ago, BB Marioni said:

wide variety of options, while with wanda people are OK being locked to 2 weapons?

That is an way to nerf maxwell max potencial... 
wanda's is at max potential just from getting some thulecite fragments, just as day 4 or 5  
wanda can use all armour, but TC + shadow is her safest option same as maxwell,
wanda can use bone armor full, same as maxwell
she can use normal armor
she have 2 option of top tier weapons
wanda can use all weapons when  young

wanda can only use bone armor, and any helmet not tied to TC/ tophat or bone helm

[ShadowDuelist]

9 hours ago, edulopes said:

those timers for casting are abnoxious...

It just requires practice, like any new thing. It’s not so bad once you get the hang of it, it’s very similar to the forge.

4 hours ago, BB Marioni said:

. I've never seen any character have this level of difficulty just to be able to use one of their perks. Imagine having to build all 3 celestial altars just to summon abigail, or having to grow a knobby tree to final stage just to be able to craft winona catapults. 

You should try Wickerbottom sometime. She has no magic perks until she finds living logs, and even then the materials to get about to the same level of magic power maxwell starts with, would take at least to have done 20 things across the map (with a much much bigger downside by abusing magic)

About OP, I’d be fine to lock some of the best perks maxwell has behind doing something: be it improve the codex at the manipulator and pseudoscience stations or something. Have maxwell go on a little quest to unlock all of his potential (little quest, like making a manipulator and reaching a pseudoscience machine, not defeating huge bosses)
As for the duelists scaling damage I think it’s fine as it is now, I wouldn’t change that, they finally found kind of a sweet spot.

You don’t “have to” have bone items to use his perks, I’ve been using him with night armor, dark sword and magic hat and he works great already for most of the game. If you rush the ruins it works a little better with thul gear. Killing FW is just an extra convenience for him, not a mandatory thing to use his perks.

[Joey9Baka]

You guys are forgetting the new shadow dash atk does more damage so duelists dps is higher than your estimates

I honestly think duelists are crazy balanced now, they do infinitely more damage than pre rework duelists and can even meaningfully add dps to bosses for a pretty cheap cost on nightmare fuel

Now it's just about fine tuning the ai of all servants, messing with spell cooldowns/cancels

I don't see any big changes left since generally people are satisfied now.

Maxwell had 0 combat ability before and was just a harvester people used for resources than dropped, now he can actually kill bosses solo with minions fighting with him and even gets new boss strategies for just him with his new spells, AND HE STILL HARVESTS EVERYTHING LIKE A CHAMP. 

[edulopes]

1 minute ago, ShadowDuelist said:

You should try Wickerbottom sometime. She has no magic perks until she finds living logs, and even then the materials to get about to the same level of magic power maxwell starts with, would take at least to have done 20 things across the map (with a much much bigger downside by abusing magic)

at least she have no pratical downside, -25 health(base 125 for 50+ sanity 250) at the downside of not being able to sleep, ( she can heal using foods provided from her books)
she cant eat stale food( her books provide) and spawn shadow creatures when spam books when insane( her books can provide sanity food, she can use bone helm, she can go to lunar island

3 minutes ago, Joey9Baka said:

You guys are forgetting the new shadow dash atk does more damage so duelists dps is higher than your estimates

I honestly think duelists are crazy balanced now, they do infinitely more damage than pre rework duelists and can even meaningfully add dps to bosses for a pretty cheap cost on nightmare fuel

Now it's just about fine tuning the ai of all servants, messing with spell cooldowns/cancels

I don't see any big changes left since generally people are satisfied now.

Maxwell had 0 combat ability before and was just a harvester people used for resources than dropped, now he can actually kill bosses solo with minions fighting with him and even gets new boss strategies for just him with his new spells, AND HE STILL HARVESTS EVERYTHING LIKE A CHAMP. 

the thing is, people want the sistem of gear exclusive( like me) people dislike gear exclusivity like some, 
i dont like the late game gear is worse than mid game one,
duellists doing the thigs they do today is the bare minimum, and they only are good because of shadow prision
spell casting timer is an must have change, and ai for servants too
so i brough an idea so you dont need to use top tier armor, but you would pay the price of being slow caster
then you would have some progression, and dont get all your powers at once 

[ShadowDuelist]

6 minutes ago, edulopes said:

at least she have no pratical downside, -25 health(base 125 for 50+ sanity 250) at the downside of not being able to sleep, ( she can heal using foods provided from her books)
she cant eat stale food( her books provide) and spawn shadow creatures when spam books when insane( her books can provide sanity food, she can use bone helm, she can go to lunar island

She really does have, she is harder than it seems: if you go the spellcaster route you have to find and get stuck in the lunar island or defeat one of the most powerful bosses in the game, which realistically most people won’t do.

You also can’t use magic at will like Maxwell does, because you either break your books, or nightmares murder you (or both). 

If you don’t go the spellcaster route you do have the knowledge for the early game, but everyone else can get to that in a few days by making an alchemy and a manipulator, at that point you are basically sleepless Wilson with less hp, that can grow some food sometimes.

Using the witch side of Wicker takes a lot of effort.

[edulopes]

1 minute ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Using the witch side of Wicker takes a lot of effort.

5 days... you can have almost all
and more 
using maxwell dont have the same?
20 damage shadows are phatetic you need at least shadow manipulator serval living logs papyrus and serval nigthmare fuel and even purple gem

 

2 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

You also can’t use magic at will like Maxwell does, because you either break your books, or nightmares murder you (or both). 

placing the books on an shelve is the easiest way, make 2 or 3 of the same sivilcuture book and keep farming reed, then do all other books then just mantain your sanity using sanity food, in form of kelp, banana, or any veggie you like or even hanged food get an tam o shanter 2 reads per day for free, so the book dont break and you dont go insane
 

5 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

most powerful bosses in the game, which realistically most people won’t do.

maxwell HAVE to do it too HE DOSENT HAVE ANY CHOICE for having his max potencial
wicker have other choices besides celestial champion crown

8 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

sleepless Wilson with less hp

and have more sanity

The only books that are "hard to come by" is the full moon, and raining manual( that isnt that hard), you can get the feathers it using the bee book

11 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Using the witch side of Wicker takes a lot of effort.

that is the most bias quote i read this entire week, sorry

[Mysterious box]

26 minutes ago, edulopes said:

at least she have no pratical downside, -25 health(base 125 for 50+ sanity 250) at the downside of not being able to sleep, ( she can heal using foods provided from her books)
she cant eat stale food( her books provide) and spawn shadow creatures when spam books when insane( her books can provide sanity food, she can use bone helm, she can go to lunar island

I mean does Maxwell have a real downside in that case? His low hp is covered by synergy bonuses with the highest reduction armors and sanity food can keep him out of the insanity range while casting if you don't overdo it much like Wicker.