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Reduces the effect of Maxwell reading Wickbottom's books


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Maxwell now has his own powerful Shadow magic, and his sanity is usually around 50 in the current version, so the 2.5x sanity cost penalty for reading Wickbottom's book is useless (because reading books with or without the penalty will use up san). While reading books is Wickbotton's main ability, if Maxwell easily use, he will lose the meaning of long-term play. So, it is suggested to reduce the effect of Maxwell's reading.

"Birds of the World"

Reduced the number of summoning birds to 1/3 of the original number (about 10).


"On Tentacles"

Only one tentacle can be summoned at a time.

 

"The Angler's Survival Guide"

Only one school of Marine fish can be summoned per use.

 

"Apicultural Notes"

Maxwell's maximum bee population be down to six.

 

"Applied Silviculture","Pyrokinetics Explained","Tempering Temperatures" and "The Everything Encyclopedia"

The radius of the effect range is reduced to one third of the original radius.

 

"Lux Aeterna"

The duration becomes a third of the original, i.e., 80s.

 

"Lux Aeterna Redux"

The duration becomes a third of the original, i.e., 320s.

 

"Overcoming Arachnophobia"

The duration becomes a third of the original, i.e., 40s.

 

"Horticulture, Abridged"

The target is reduced to 40%, that is, 4 plants (just enough to meet the needs of the crop family).

 

"Horticulture, Expanded"

The target was reduced to 40% of the original, namely 6 plants.

 

"Practical Rain Rituals"

It does not rain directly after use, but increases the world rain value by 1500 points (equivalent to using 3 telelocator staff).

 

"Lunar Grimoire"

Maxwell can't use lunar magic. He can't use the book.

 

"Sleepytime Stories" and "The End is Nigh!"

The books were produced through Prestihatitator and ShadowManipulator, and Maxwell had knowledge of shadow-related magic, so he used it to create a complete effect.

 

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If they removed the Celestial Portal all the minmaxers who hate minmaxing would band together and unify for a common goal of getting minmaxing back. No more would arguments be spread out and varied between "Warly can use the portal", "Wickerbottom can use the portal", "Maxwell can use the portal", "Wigfrid can use the portal", "Winona can use the portal", and "Wormwood can use the portal". Now they shall all be "I can not use the portal".

We must make sacrifices for the common good. Only once the portal's removal has brought us together will we be enlightened.

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11 hours ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

Maxwell now has his own powerful Shadow magic, and his sanity is usually around 50 in the current version, so the 2.5x sanity cost penalty for reading Wickbottom's book is useless (because reading books with or without the penalty will use up san). While reading books is Wickbotton's main ability, if Maxwell easily use, he will lose the meaning of long-term play. So, it is suggested to reduce the effect of Maxwell's reading.

<SNIP>

Well I have the same concerns of Wickerbottom becoming a switch character for Maxwell, as he would be the obvious better choice for the late game. But the ideas proposed of lowering the books to 1/3 effect seem too harsh for me.
Probably half efficiency would be better, so you can still get a decent effect, but if you want the full power and constant usage of them, you'd have to stick with Wicker. This would be specially true for the amount of max grumble bees summoned (Maxwell can still get 6 duelists on top of the grumbles, so a max of 8 sounds fair enough) and overcoming arachnophobia lasting half the time seems fair as well since he has better crowd control spells anyway.

For everything encyclopedia instead of less range it could have a time limit before your buff expires (unlike for wicker that its permanent until used, and it stacks).
 

11 hours ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

"Lunar Grimoire"

Maxwell can't use lunar magic. He can't use the book.

 

"Sleepytime Stories" and "The End is Nigh!"

The books were produced through Prestihatitator and ShadowManipulator, and Maxwell had knowledge of shadow-related magic, so he used it to create a complete effect.


I really like these ideas for these specific books.
 

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I agree but in my oppinion max doesnt even need to read her books, i never understood why he could read wicker books... even if it makes sense on the lore inst a good design choice, max it's like the master of the shadow and things like that and wicker it's basicly knowledge about a lot of things at least for me look like completely diferent skills.

Switching characters is totally broken anyways but at least forcing this change makes wickers on the server more usefull than just a bunch of craft table for books... like winona that in very single game someone picks her, built catapults and then switch back, tbf this is a meme on the community...

 

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No! Today is the fifth update to the beta and they haven't made any changes to the books, Klei please don't give up on this comment, I don't want to see a third character after Winona and Warly who can enjoy 90% of their powers even if they're not played.

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No. 

Isnt Maxwell the one who gave Wickerbottom all that knowledge in her short? Besides, he already cant read them as effecient as Wicker herself. Dont nerf what isnt broken

If people see some characters as swap only, maybe then fix these exact chatacters? Not nerf literally the others

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Seriously. What is going on with everyone wanting to nerf Maxwell left and right back to the oblivion.

Maybe he should have difficulty using books unrelated to shadow magic and unable to use lunar magic lore wise.

 

But then he needs to get a better affinity with shadow magic related books. Yes even better than old wicky

 

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1 hour ago, Arthas Durotan said:

Seriously. What is going on with everyone wanting to nerf Maxwell left and right back to the oblivion.

I don't want Maxwell back to the oblivion, I want him to get better, but I also don't want Wickbottom to be replaced by Maxwell late in the game

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7 hours ago, Arthas Durotan said:

Seriously. What is going on with everyone wanting to nerf Maxwell left and right back to the oblivion.

Maybe he should have difficulty using books unrelated to shadow magic and unable to use lunar magic lore wise.

 

But then he needs to get a better affinity with shadow magic related books. Yes even better than old wicky

 

Balacing game based on lore inst the best ideia in some situations... ins't a nerf Max it's an tweak to avoid him doing what other character do, imagine if i could pick abigail's flower and then walk around killing everything just cus i've her item? i would pick Wendy craft her flower and the goest back to another character.

Why should i use wickers books if max can do the same without loosing thousands of sanity in the process? just cus of my ego? NO! that's why wicker should be the reader... this is a game about playing together, everytime that there's a max on the serv, they keep reading my books all the time and if i do complain, i get voted to kick, even if he can't interact as good as wicker, most of the books are still viable for him and before wicker refresh max would need her to keep crafting the books but now u just need to craft one time and there's that... 

I doubt Klei will do something about that since when wig rework come out people were begging for tweaks on her songs and they dint nothing until now so i don't think they will change max but it's important to think about the current state of max and wicker.

 

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I’m just gonna say it again, now that Maxwell has been reworked and he has his own unique abilities, he shouldn’t ride the coat tail off another playable character by being able to do everything she can do + Better!

Its stupid and Klei really needs to remove it at this point.

I understand that it was originally meant to give some sort of synergy between Maxwell and Wickerbottom-

But when I compare that concept to WALTER it falls flat on its face…

Why is Walter the only character in the entire game that can use his Slingshot? I mean it’s not like it requires rocket science to use.. What about Woby?? Why can’t I ferry a second player around on her back making for good COOPERATIVE Team Play.

As the posts above mine clearly shows: Keeping this perk for Maxwell doesn’t make him anymore cooperative, it just further incentivizes bullying the Wicker player into crafting her bookshelf/books for him then her usefulness to him runs dry.

To put this into a clear cut concept Anyone can understand.. it’s like if Klei suddenly decided to add a brand new playable rock lobster character into the game who’s perks are super human strength, he can use Wolfgang’s Dumbells to deal over 2x damage.

OR better yet- If Abigail’s flower only needed to be crafted then Anyone can summon Abby from it. Why play Wendy at ALL at that point?

Surely Klei can see that Maxwell still being able to do everything Wicker could + his own stuff is just a Relic of the Past..

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Where do people find those hordes of serial character switchers? I rarely see anyone switching, both on pubs and on private servers for friends. Who are these mythical individuals obsessed with meta and minmaxing everything? Why should Klei balance the game for them? People play characters based on whether or not they're fun, not their efficiency. Maxwell was very efficient with chopping trees pre-rework, but people rarely played as him because it was his only perk, and a very boring one too. Taking away his ability to read books won't magically make people enjoy playing Wicker more. Why do you all want to force people into playing a certain character so much?

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everytime that there's a max on the serv, they keep reading my books all the time and if i do complain, i get voted to kick

Maybe don't play with toxic jerks then? It's not tied to a character, anyone can steal your stuff, destroy your base, etc. The game is about teamwork, Max can help Wicker by reading her books when she's not around to do it herself, if he instead does that to troll it's not an issue with the character. Wicker can cast rain to annoy everyone, or full moon to make Woody transform when he doesn't want to, or spam tenctacles in the base, so what, does that mean those books should be removed completely because someone is a piece of manure?

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But when I compare that concept to WALTER it falls flat on its face…

Walter is one of the weakest characters, his perks are not useful for anything, no one really wants to use his slingshot and Woby is replaced by tamed beefalo, yet I see him played regularly because people think he's fun. Meanwhile Wicker's books have a lot of utility, and you guys want to force everyone to play her for that utility, even if they hate her as a character. Do you really see no difference between fun and usefulness?

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You still haven't come up with a real reason as to why nerfing Maxwell's book-readings would make him or Wicker any more enjoyable.
This is the least effective way to keep a character from becoming 'obsolete'; By subtracting, and not adding anything. It is like saying Warly should be the only one who can use Goat Jelly, but on a smaller scale concerning only two characters instead of an entire cast. Still fundamentally ineffective.

Not to mention, even in lategame, Wicker can read between 4-7 books without going insane and recover it all back with clothing, no need for sanity food or anything. Wicker gets to keep utilizing her head slot, be it for ecrown(light in caves), eyebrella for summer, beef hat/tam for winter, a helmet that protects well or anything. Whereas Maxwell is condemned to the bone helm that he's already stuck with for duelists if he dares read more than once, and afterwards he has to eat up some sanity meals and play tag with the 6-7 terrorbeaks until they despawn, each time he wants to take it off. Unlike Wicker, who only needs to do so when e.g. preparing tentacle pits because her "maximum reading threshold" before she has to involuntarily farm nf, is higher.

tldr: A playstyle with very active book usage still makes Wicker > Max, despite all he can do in addition. Arguably, better access to the head slot without babysitting sanity nearly as much > bind and condition-reliant duelists. If you still feel that they're not even, let Wicker cast bind/panic or utilize the top hat. After all, she changed her mind about taming a varg before, she can learn to stop hating the codex. Subtracting isn't nearly as interesting as making them get closer as sidegrades being characters with similar themes.

On 11/6/2022 at 6:56 PM, Cheggf said:

If they removed the Celestial Portal all the minmaxers who hate minmaxing would band together and unify for a common goal of getting minmaxing back. No more would arguments be spread out and varied between "Warly can use the portal", "Wickerbottom can use the portal", "Maxwell can use the portal", "Wigfrid can use the portal", "Winona can use the portal", and "Wormwood can use the portal". Now they shall all be "I can not use the portal".

We must make sacrifices for the common good. Only once the portal's removal has brought us together will we be enlightened.

"min-maxer"? Minmaxing what, exactly, and who?
I swear, no matter how much people paint the portal as the root of all evil, I have yet to see a Warly/Winona be shouted at for keeping their 'swap character'. I'm gonna go ahead and even rant about it here since the topic came up.

If people frown upon the idea of remaining Warly/Winona themselves, it says more about how lackluster they are designed than it does about the Portal. Warly, the chef, has no reward and microscopic loss from eating the same way a stew-enjoying Wilson does. There's neither risk nor reward beyond a very early point where cycling jam/bmuffin/metbol does the trick. He's indistinctive, and that's why I don't keep him. Not because he's a "suboptimal swap char!!!!", but because he's blank as an A4 beyond the ability to whip up a bunch of extremely underpowered dishes... And goat jelly.
Would making goat jelly exclusive to him make him more interesting? Absolutely not, it'd make him like Wolfgang with more effort and only good when it rains. Would making Winona the only one able to refuel her machines make her more fun? Absolutely not, it'd just decrease catapult usage by 90%.

It's almost like giving people more reasons to move out of their comfort zones, even if temporarily, isn't a flat buff to them over having a large part of the cast rot indefinitely in the basement.
Almost as if giving people the tools necessary to deal more than 1x damage on non-combat characters, up to 3x/6x with sufficient work for a solo player to burn down bosses designed for more people, isn't purely beneficial.
Almost like letting them serve a great purpose by extending the to-do list, especially on a solo or a small 2-3 people server, doesn't just give people more things to do and extend their average usually post-game playtime.

The others? Wicker/wormwood/maxwell? Who's being hurt by the idea of someone utilizing x for a while for a specific task? Ideally, no one should be.
It doesn't and shouldn't be a fuss. I'll swap to Wolfgang for the misery toadstool kill and go back to being wormwood, because misery toad is annoying. poor xolfchang mains... min-maxed away into worthlessness... (they don't care and neither should you)
I don't care if someone swaps into Wormwood to grow a thousand dragonfruits, because that does not invalidate me in a way that matters or should matter.
It's not gamebreaking in a way that's harmful. Yes, it makes your character choice matter less, but why would on earth would that be more detrimental than beneficial? Letting the players have more freedom in this case is a myriad of gameplay-variety benefits compared to one choice mattering less.

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On 11/6/2022 at 12:56 PM, Cheggf said:

If they removed the Celestial Portal all the minmaxers who hate minmaxing would band together and unify for a common goal of getting minmaxing back. No more would arguments be spread out and varied between "Warly can use the portal", "Wickerbottom can use the portal", "Maxwell can use the portal", "Wigfrid can use the portal", "Winona can use the portal", and "Wormwood can use the portal". Now they shall all be "I can not use the portal".

We must make sacrifices for the common good. Only once the portal's removal has brought us together will we be enlightened.

dont fix your portal :wilson_love:

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7 minutes ago, edulopes said:

dont fix your portal :wilson_love:

Not sure if this is a joke, but you can actually turn off the Terrarium from the Terriaria update. As in: It won’t spawn into your world at all.

If Klei added something like THAT for the Portal then people who enjoy character swapping can enjoy that, while people who enjoy sticking exclusively to one character can enjoy that.. and more importantly: If I host a server and DONT want people swapping characters with the portal- I could Disable it as a feature just like the Terrarium. (Once Klei updates the game allowing me to do so..)

But- none of that fixes the issue that Maxwell can do all his own unique perks and gameplay AND Wickerbottoms too…?

Why? Why does he get to be Two characters in one? By that Logic…

Wendy should also be able to do Everything Walter can do.

And personally I never understood the thrill behind character swapping at the portal- you pick a character to enjoy THEIR unique perks and gameplay- if you pick Wes you choose Wes to try and survive as the “challenge character” but… then you also switch to Wolfgang for 2x damage against bosses before switching back to Wes… At that point are you really even playing as Wes anymore?

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1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

Not sure if this is a joke, but you can actually turn off the Terrarium from the Terriaria update. As in: It won’t spawn into your world at all.

If Klei added something like THAT for the Portal then people who enjoy character swapping can enjoy that, while people who enjoy sticking exclusively to one character can enjoy that.. and more importantly: If I host a server and DONT want people swapping characters with the portal- I could Disable it as a feature just like the Terrarium. (Once Klei updates the game allowing me to do so..)

But- none of that fixes the issue that Maxwell can do all his own unique perks and gameplay AND Wickerbottoms too…?

Why? Why does he get to be Two characters in one? By that Logic…

Wendy should also be able to do Everything Walter can do.

And personally I never understood the thrill behind character swapping at the portal- you pick a character to enjoy THEIR unique perks and gameplay- if you pick Wes you choose Wes to try and survive as the “challenge character” but… then you also switch to Wolfgang for 2x damage against bosses before switching back to Wes… At that point are you really even playing as Wes anymore?

the thing is your opinon versus your choice, hou have the choice of not fixing the portal, and or not letting anyone change, that is options for those who changes caracter, if you have the option to use, you dont have to use it, and thats fine, its options so you can play the game the way you like, and i add if maxwell losses the book reading ability he will net so BRUTAL buffs, the problem is if you give a thing to a caracter, if you remove it, in my eyes you should give back in another side  of his power. for me i will continue to change wicker, the diference is that i would take one more trip and do an mega farm with her and never use her again

you only nerf an caracter and dont give it back if he is the top of top, like wanda that is the top one, not seem fair nerf somone that isnt top one

i think is just if you give the choice to everyone use the thing, because some people like, and some people dislike, even DS solo lets you change caracter with ease now days

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12 hours ago, ThymeSpirit said:

Where do people find those hordes of serial character switchers? I rarely see anyone switching, both on pubs and on private servers for friends. Who are these mythical individuals obsessed with meta and minmaxing everything?

In our server people switch characters pretty often. I'd say some individuals are so used to it, that play every season with a different one that is more convenient to whatever they are doing. I mean it should have had some kind of cooldown or something when the idea was introduced and I get that now it is a too late, but still, the celestial portal is probably the biggest source of misbalancing in the game.

In the future if there is some optional setting added about the celestial portal or even a Mod that does that I'd probably include it to my server. Not because I like "spoiling the fun" for others, but because I really think it was not implemented the best way possible and made the game much easier instead.

 

1 hour ago, Siegmund said:

The others? Wicker/wormwood/maxwell? Who's being hurt by the idea of someone utilizing x for a while for a specific task? Ideally, no one should be.
It doesn't and shouldn't be a fuss. I'll swap to Wolfgang for the misery toadstool kill and go back to being wormwood, because misery toad is annoying. poor xolfchang mains... min-maxed away into worthlessness... (they don't care and neither should you)
I don't care if someone swaps into Wormwood to grow a thousand dragonfruits, because that does not invalidate me in a way that matters or should matter.
It's not gamebreaking in a way that's harmful. Yes, it makes your character choice matter less, but why would on earth would that be more detrimental than beneficial? Letting the players have more freedom in this case is a myriad of gameplay-variety benefits compared to one choice mattering less.

I mean I get this, that is why it should be made optional, for those who want to have choices matter a bit more, and not forced into everyone else.

Originally I believe this was added because in long lasting worlds, people tended to get bored of playing always the same character, and often went to admin powers to make a switch. But it was like 1 or 2 switches, in an entire playthrough, tops. In the way the celestial portal was added, it ended up being more of a tool, than a way to keep a world fresh.

Again, I get that now it is too late to check on that matter, but keeping some uniqueness into some characters would extend their playability for a bit. Hopefully if they ever add the much requested "hard mode" in the future, switching characters will have much more dire consequences.

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As a Wickerbottom main I don't find it problematic at all that Maxwell can read. His 2.5x sanity cost coupled with 200 sanity that's often capped at 50 or 20 make reading without summoning nightmare creatures much more tedious to the point where I'd rather just stay as Wicker.

In a multiplayer setting, I think Maxwell's literacy is a good thing if anything. As a Wickerbottom it's nice to have someone who can do your chores for you in a pinch.

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Just now, Arcwell said:

As a Wickerbottom main I don't find it problematic at all that Maxwell can read. His 2.5x sanity cost coupled with 200 sanity that's often capped at 50 or 20 make reading without summoning nightmare creatures much more tedious to the point where I'd rather just stay as Wicker.

In a multiplayer setting, I think Maxwell's literacy is a good thing if anything. As a Wickerbottom it's nice to have someone who can do your chores for you in a pinch.

as i always say is better you have all choices, even if they arent the best that diversifies gameplay well said

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6 hours ago, Siegmund said:

Minmaxing what, exactly, and who?
I swear, no matter how much people paint the portal as the root of all evil, I have yet to see a Warly/Winona be shouted at for keeping their 'swap character'.

I've also never seen anyone get yelled at for playing a "swap character" (Literally everyone is a swap character). In fact, I've never even seen anyone swap to a different character temporarily. I barely ever see the portal get repaired and I don't even remember if I've ever seen anyone use it. But if you ask the minmaxers on the forums the portal is apparently the number one issue with the game because they never stop making threads like this.

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