The book case requiring living logs returns a bit of wickerbottom's selfishness in the early game

[Primalflower]

Its a bit of a wordy title, but my thought is just like... as it stood initially, the bookcase was kind of in the same spot as an alchemy engine, and bases built by wickerbottom had a bookcase in the place where an alchemy engine would be. This functioned well, and avoided the troublesome occurrence of a wickerbottom creating just a science machine and leaving it at that, meaning that people wouldn't have access to t2 science without making it themselves, its not a huge deal, but it just, wasn't a great multiplayer interaction.

Now, the fact that the bookcase requires something you can only really get without getting lucky pretty decently far in, means that wickerbottom is much more inclined to skip out on t2 science entirely and only be able to build the bookcase probably far after any other players have manifested an alchemy engine. There exists the AOE effect of the everything encyclopedia, but the wickerbottom has to be there to do it, and... it just doesn't really fit the same thing.

Additionally, it kind of makes me sad that the apicultural notes are bookcase specific now that the recipes changed. It flowed very well with a boating early game that already practically necessitated the gathering of stingers already. If anything, maybe that one could be made bookcase-less?

[Mysterious box]

5 hours ago, Primalflower said:

Now, the fact that the bookcase requires something you can only really get without getting lucky pretty decently far in,

I mean all things considered the caves aren't dangerous so long as you don't walk into the ruins so there's not really anything stopping her from going to the grotto for living logs day 3-4(barring resource annihilation) at the latest since she can craft a lantern very quickly sure she's going out of her way which is something most characters don't have to deal with but it's not like she's the first to have to either.

[Primalflower]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

there's not really anything stopping her from going to the grotto for living logs day 3-4

Surely you acknowledge the difference between hunting a crow and going to the swamp and doing something decently comparable to finding the ruins for ingredients...? 

Its not like its impossible to do early, but its much, much more difficult, up to rng with worldgen, and out of the way compared to how it used to be.

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

Surely you acknowledge the difference between hunting a crow and going to the swamp and doing something decently comparable to finding the ruins for ingredients...? 

Its not like its impossible to do early, but its much, much more difficult, up to rng with worldgen, and out of the way compared to how it used to be.

Archives is not the ruins and aside from the mushgnomes you have to fight to get the logs and possibly some of those bat things which you can easily avoid fighting there is no other fighting you have to do your just walking around until you find it so I wouldn't even call it difficult unless you have trouble with fighting the gnomes which is understandable avoiding their spores can be tricky. Also rng is always involved in world gen some characters get it far worse Wurt has to find 20 kelp at sea or locate lunar and find beefalo if Wx is unlucky with World gen he has to go to the actual ruins to get his speed gear and so on.

[Primalflower]

26 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Archives is not the ruins

i wasn't saying it was. I didn't mention fighting. I specifically stated Finding the ruins.

26 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

if Wx is unlucky with World gen he has to go to the actual ruins to get his speed gear and so on.

WX-78 goes by they/them. I can't help but feel as if you're simply trying to get my goat when you mention them like this, when my signature is clearly visible.

[Mysterious box]

9 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

wasn't saying it was. I didn't mention fighting. I specifically stated Finding the ruins.

Then I'm kind of unsure what point you were trying to make.

 

11 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

WX-78 goes by they/them. I can't help but feel as if you're simply trying to get my goat when you mention them like this, when my signature is clearly visible.

This is my personal habit when it comes to robots that being said excuse me if I'm ignorant of how the fourm fuctions work but isn't the signature the thing listed under people's posts because if so your post does not have a signature though it could be because I'm posting from a phone.

[Primalflower]

12 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Then I'm kind of unsure what point you were trying to make.

the point was that finding the swamp or lunar island  + getting a feather + some boards is very very different of a task, much more comparable to getting an alchemy engine than it is to scouting out the caves until you find the archives, which can be very secluded depending on your world. It's not like this is the most difficult task, but it takes a lot more time, it's much more out of the way, and generally speaking, is in a much different place in terms of progression than it is to fulfill the original recipe, which makes wickerbottom's base building habits less friendly to non-wickers. I don't have a huge stake in if the recipe changes or not, but i must say its a little bit frustrating that this part specifically is being contested, when this part of the discussion isn't up for debate. The question would more likely be if this should stay the way it is, making wickerbottom's books less easily reparable at the cost of making wickerbottom more selfish as a character in the early game.

12 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This is my personal habit when it comes to robots that being said-

I'm glad you've acknowledged it. I hope you can improve in the future on it and refer to wx-78 correctly.

[Mysterious box]

41 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

the point was that finding the swamp or lunar island  + getting a feather + some boards is very very different of a task, much more comparable to getting an alchemy engine than it is to scouting out the caves until you find the archives, which can be very secluded depending on your world. It's not like this is the most difficult task, but it takes a lot more time, it's much more out of the way, and generally speaking, is in a much different place in terms of progression than it is to fulfill the original recipe, which makes wickerbottom's base building habits less friendly to non-wickers. I don't have a huge stake in if the recipe changes or not, but i must say its a little bit frustrating that this part specifically is being contested, when this part of the discussion isn't up for debate. The question would more likely be if this should stay the way it is, making wickerbottom's books less easily reparable at the cost of making wickerbottom more selfish as a character in the early game.

It's not nearly as time consuming as your thinking at max 3 to 4 days of effort try it.

 

42 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I'm glad you've acknowledged it. I hope you can improve in the future on it and refer to wx-78 correctly.

Can't say whether or not I'll remember but i don't think you should take it personally there's a big difference between misrepresenting a fictional character vs a real person

 

[Primalflower]

11 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

It's not nearly as time consuming as your thinking at max 3 to 4 days of effort try it.

I have, and its entirely worldgen dependant, even if you have some clues. I've spent about an entire season looking for it once, far, far more than i spent making the recipe for the initial bookcase.

11 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Can't say whether or not I'll remember but i don't think you should take it personally there's a big difference between misrepresenting a fictional character vs a real person

it says something about your character if you are incapable of putting in the miniscule effort to correctly refer to fictional characters. Aside from that, it should be noted that its been stated that intentionally misgendering is against the rules. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, Primalflower said:

the point was that finding the swamp or lunar island  + getting a feather + some boards is very very different of a task, much more comparable to getting an alchemy engine than it is to scouting out the caves until you find the archives, which can be very secluded depending on your world. It's not like this is the most difficult task, but it takes a lot more time, it's much more out of the way, and generally speaking, is in a much different place in terms of progression than it is to fulfill the original recipe, which makes wickerbottom's base building habits less friendly to non-wickers. I don't have a huge stake in if the recipe changes or not, but i must say its a little bit frustrating that this part specifically is being contested, when this part of the discussion isn't up for debate. The question would more likely be if this should stay the way it is, making wickerbottom's books less easily reparable at the cost of making wickerbottom more selfish as a character in the early game.

i wont enter if the recipe is the best or not but i dont see your point as a good reason to change it. Basically you are saying that wicker needs to take another route to be played as a bad thing when i see it as something fresh instead of the stale "farm good and rocks to get alchemy engine" like how wanda needs to rush thulecite for her watches

also i dont see how is that selfish when the effects of her books are shared to everyone and nothing stops her or other player to help building an alchemy engine instead of waiting her to build it

12 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I have, and its entirely worldgen dependant, even if you have some clues. I've spent about an entire season looking for it once, far, far more than i spent making the recipe for the initial bookcase.

blue biome is always connected to muddy biome and the archives are always in the opposite direction to the ruins. Ofc takes more time than chopping 4 trees and get some gold

[Mysterious box]

15 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

says something about your character if you are incapable of putting in the effort to correctly refer to fictional characters. Aside from that, it should be noted that its been stated that intentionally misgendering is against the rules. 

I think it says even more about your character do you go out attacking people who put Wilson or Webber in a dress as well? Your making a personal attack on a real person because they might not remember a fictional one's gender you see nothing wrong with this I took offense to your first accusation but I was going to let it go but since your doubling down on it yes now I'm really offended.

[Primalflower]

16 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Basically you are saying that wicker needs to take another route to be played as a bad thing

I'm not saying its a bad thing. I enjoy that wickerbottom has her own sort of alchemy engine. The questionable part comes when this alchemy engine is placed far down the line in terms of player progression, meaning that a base built by a wickerbottom probably isn't going to have above t1 science if that until a fair bit later. Again, it's not the end of the world, but it's stepping all over what was initially a very good multiplayer interaction.

 

11 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

do you go out attacking people who put Wilson or Webber in a dress as well? Your making a personal attack on a real person because they might not remember a fictional one's gender you see nothing wrong with this I took offense to your first accusation but I was going to let it go but since your doubling down on it yes now I'm really offended.

No? You can present in vaguely feminine ways and still be referred to in ways that aren't she, and vise versa. Putting wilson or webber in a dress because you like to see them in such things isn't a bad thing, nor does it make them not go by he/him.

I'm not personally attacking you, I haven't insulted you in this thread. Heck, I'm not even saying that misremembering such things is a terrible offense towards humanity. I'm saying that the intentional misgendering of a character, especially after being reminded  of such, especially specifically here in a forum where you can edit your posts at any time, says something about you as a person, and additionally I thought I would throw it out there that it has been directly stated that such a thing is against the rules, too. I think this is a bad hill for you to die on.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I'm not saying its a bad thing. I enjoy that wickerbottom has her own sort of alchemy engine. The questionable part comes when this alchemy engine is placed far down the line in terms of player progression, meaning that a base built by a wickerbottom probably isn't going to have above t1 science if that until a fair bit later. Again, it's not the end of the world, but it's stepping all over what was initially a very good multiplayer interaction.

i get it but wasnt that always her "problem"? she only needed science machine to unlock all science tier 2 recipes. She only built the alche for 1 book...

and again, if the wicker is basebuilding in a multiplayer server why she wont build prototypers for the rest of the players? i see more problematic needing 4 living logs if the player needs more bookcase than the entire server not placing a prototyper for some reason (and even less when wicker can give access to that recipes thanks to the bookcase+prototyper book)

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Primalflower said:

WX-78 goes by they/them. I can't help but feel as if you're simply trying to get my goat when you mention them like this, when my signature is clearly visible.

 

30 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

it says something about your character if you are incapable of putting in the miniscule effort to correctly refer to fictional characters. Aside from that, it should be noted that its been stated that intentionally misgendering is against the rules. 

I don't know how it looks to you but this comes off as a accusation and condemning of my character which most would consider a insult I'm sure including you saying i was doing it intentionally.

[Primalflower]

  

6 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i get it but wasnt that always her "problem"?

yeah, thats why the bookcases recipe being changed from what it was initially is sad. When the bookcase wasn't the living log recipe, the issue disappeared. But now its back.

6 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

and again, if the wicker is basebuilding in a multiplayer server why she wont build prototypers for the rest of the players? i see more problematic needing 4 living logs if the player needs more bookcase than the entire server not placing a prototyper for some reason (and even less when wicker can give access to that recipes thanks to the bookcase+prototyper book)

She definitely can build prototypers for the rest of the people, thats not a problem, its just that before, wickerbottom had this thing to entirely skip the alchemy engine part of the equation, and now that concept is gone. Again, it's not the end of the world, but it flowed well before, and now it doesn't flow as well, and some redundancy is introduced.

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I don't know how it looks to you but this comes off as a accusation and condemning of my character which most would consider a insult I'm sure including you saying i was doing it intentionally.

I could've been nicer/gentler with my wording, Sorry. I hope you can take the rest of what I said to heart.

[lowercase skye]

Won't lie it is disheartening to see this thread that makes a very clear and reasonable point of "Wickerbottom's early game now requires one specific part of the caves and/or for her to deprive other players of resources" and then everyone comes in trying to go like "ummm no you aren't gamer enough, just go to the caves" like. Yes, going down to the lunar grotto allows you to get the living logs early. Yes, the lunar grotto is easy enough to find if you can find the biomes that lead into it. But that's not the point. I don't understand why PrimalFlower repeatedly saying "hey that's not the point, this isn't what I want to discuss here" is just prompting y'all to continue trying to discuss the thing that's not the point? :/

Point is, the book case used to function a nice multiplayer purpose in skipping the alchemy engine for an entire base, I experienced this firsthand in a world I've played over the course of the beta, while now with it taking living logs it requires you to deprive the server of a shadow manipulator they might want to make, and/or go all the way to one specific part of the caves to farm the specific mob that drops living logs (with RNG!), and by that point you're only going to be helping yourself because there's absolutely going to be an alchemy engine built up there by the time you've made that journey two ways. Wickerbottom used to change up the progression of a whole server, while now only HER progression is changed up... by going directly to the same point in the world every time if you want to use any of the books early, unless you're lucky enough to get 2 totally normal trees :/

[Mysterious box]

29 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

could've been nicer/gentler with my wording, Sorry. I hope you can take the rest of what I said to heart.

Something i want to clear up is me saying I might not remember isn't me trying to be malicious it's me trying to be honest I'm fine with being corrected on it in the future and will even call them, they them but I even have trouble remembering faces from time to time so remembering the proper way to call a character I refer to differently in my personal space can be difficult I'm just asking to be respectfully corrected if or when it happens and I'll follow in suit and correct myself.

[flamboyant wolf]

1 hour ago, Primalflower said:

it says something about your character if you are incapable of putting in the miniscule effort to correctly refer to fictional characters. Aside from that, it should be noted that its been stated that intentionally misgendering is against the rules. 

with all my respect, please chill. 

misgendering a fictional character in a vidio game is not the end of the world, they're not a real person, they won't be hurt or upset about it. 

and in any case, it's clear that Mysterious box is not doing it intentionally, but rather out of the habit. It's not that easy to overcome some habits.

(imo you seem to be low-key rude about it, too many baseless assumptions) 

 

[Mysterious box]

29 minutes ago, sylvia wander o said:

Point is, the book case used to function a nice multiplayer purpose in skipping the alchemy engine for an entire base, I experienced this firsthand in a world I've played over the course of the beta,

It still can depending on your luck but it never needed to be.

 

31 minutes ago, sylvia wander o said:

while now with it taking living logs it requires you to deprive the server of a shadow manipulator they might want to make, and/or go all the way to one specific part of the caves to farm the specific mob that drops living logs (with RNG!), and by that point you're only going to be helping yourself because there's absolutely going to be an alchemy engine built up there by the time you've made that journey two ways. Wickerbottom used to change up the progression of a whole server, while now only HER progression is changed up... by going directly to the same point in the world every time if you want to use any of the books early, unless you're lucky enough to get 2 totally normal trees :/

When you play multiplayer resources on a server belong to whoever got them that person can choose to share but your not depriving players of resources they didn't earn or explore for unless your inflicting damage on to the world to do so. Also Wickerbottom isn't being inherently selfish as most of her books come at the massive benefit of the group to the point some people are willing to give her the materials to craft her things. This however doesn't mean a Wickerbottom player can't be selfish it just means you have to actively try to be.

[Primalflower]

35 minutes ago, skile said:

misgendering a fictional character in a vidio game is not the end of the world, they're not a real person, they won't be hurt or upset about it. 

It's not about whether or not the person is upset. It's about the message you send in such a thing.

1 hour ago, Primalflower said:

it says something about your character if you are incapable of putting in the effort to correctly refer to fictional characters. Aside from that, it should be noted that its been stated that intentionally misgendering is against the rules. 

Also, this matter was already settled with the person it was directed at, and I've already apologized for initially being rude about it, and I've already acknowledged mysterious box's post about not being malicious. No need to bring it back up.

[JoeW]

Move on please. Thanks. 

[Duck986]

3 hours ago, Primalflower said:

WX-78 goes by they/them. I can't help but feel as if you're simply trying to get my goat when you mention them like this, when my signature is clearly visible.

is wx gender fight some kind of a local meme i dont understand? because it looks like it is.

[Faintly Macabre]

3 minutes ago, Duck986 said:

is wx gender fight some kind of a local meme i dont understand? because it looks like it is.

The dude with the red name said to move on. Probably a good idea.

To the actual topic: I feel like this concern is overlooking something pretty glaring: Wickerbottom has as much a vested interest in the creation of the Shadow Manipulator as everybody else does.

[Primalflower]

1 minute ago, Faintly Macabre said:

I feel like this concern is overlooking something pretty glaring: Wickerbottom has as much a vested interest in the creation of the Shadow Manipulator as everybody else does.

oh yeah? I'd like to hear a bit of elaboration on that. Genuine.

[Faintly Macabre]

11 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

oh yeah? I'd like to hear a bit of elaboration on that. Genuine.

I'm just saying she wants Dark Swords and the like as much as anyone. And if people want swords they're still going to have to go hunting for tree guards or mushgnomes or hope for a Wormwood anyway.