Discussing Wickerbottom's Bookcase changes

[HowlVoid]

TL;DR at the end 

Some info on why it was probably nerfed:

A shadow manipulator cost 3 living logs, 7 nightmare fuel, and 1 purple gem.

Wickerbottom's Bookcase costs 4 living logs, 4 papyrus(16 reeds), and 1 feathered pencil.

Now, why the comparison?

With Wickerbottom's bookcase you can craft the everything encyclopedia which allows 3(?) individual shadow manipulator crafts when paired with a science machine. Though this is probably not the only reason for the nerf the comparison is important as they share some materials.

The encyclopedia costs: 2 papyrus(8 reeds), 1 electrical doodad

 Some information of probability for 2 rarest items (not important to read):

(Note character exclusive perks/crafts not mentioned as that character may not be available.)

Spoiler

First let's discuss the chances of the rarest materials of found in both recipes:

 

Living logs:

 

3 guaranteed from a totally normal tree

 

6x from a tree guard, tree guards have a 1.33% chance to spawn from any ever green starting from day 4 when you chop down it's surrounding kin.

 

1 from mushgnomes with a 50% chance for one more.

 

1-2x, and 1 dug up from any poison birchnut tree, they have a 3% chance to spawn from any birchnut starting on day 3 when you chop down it's surrounding kin.

 

Purple gem:

 

15.35% chance to dig up a blue or red gem  from any grave yard. (Blue+red=purple gem)

 

1 guaranteed from dragonfly

 

1 guaranteed from Klaus (blue+red gem)

 

Multiple may be obtained from the ruins (as well as red+blue gems).

 

Which one is more beneficial to craft first?

The pros and cons on which the server will create first a very important as that will define when Wicker may have access to her bookcase. Both items compete for similar resources and share a function. This may decide whether Wicker is left to her own devices if she will or won't need to find her own living logs (provided she doesn't get help, as it may happen in a pub).

Why it's more beneficial to craft the Manipulator first with the starting number of living logs:

With a single totally normal tree the entire server has access to every shadow tier 2 recipe forever. Every living log after the first (or second for bat bat) can be made into a darksword, bat bat, and whatever else you may want. Gnomes can be killed for living logs and since the manipulator has the lowest requirement of living logs, these can be used for a quicker return from the station.

Purple gems have a 2.35% chance to be obtained from 2 graves (red gem+blue gem). This gives them a higher probability than 1.33% chance from spawning a tree guard from an evergreen (more trees do not stack the probability, instead give more chances at the 1.33%) or a .09% chance of spawning 2 poison birchnuts (considering 1 may not drop enough for a manipulator AND certainly not enough for a bookcase). One may also be guaranteed from dragonfly, the ruins and at the latest Klaus. Depending on your play style/luck/skill set this may be easier to obtain than a forth living log. You may even find the ruins looking for the grotto.

Nightmare fuel has to be fought for from a very easy to kite enemy, and unlike reeds can be spawned from anywhere.

Anyone can craft this, and that player may receive immediate benefits to themselves and their friends. There may not even be a wicker present or the player who finds the first TNT (Totally Normal Tree) may care about their immediate benefits first.

To the detriment of Wicker's book case:

WIcker may plead with the server to share the living logs with her first. 

The first set of living logs will either come from a TNT+Gnome, 2-4 gnomes (provided you found the grotto and not the ruins), she/someone wins the guard tree lottery, Wormwood can bare to lose 80hp and forsake his claim at an earlier bat bat, or some other character like Woodie/Maxwell can spawn a tree guard faster. 

If wicker DOES NOT get cooperation from the server, she has to compete for gnome kills, compete for TNT and/possibly destroy an existing shadow manipulator which may result in accidental griefing ("No I can explain! Half my kit is locked behind these items!").

Should People craft the book case, now everyone is competing against Wicker for the world's initial reeds because she promised tier 2 shadow crafts! (Done via encyclopedias). In this case it's even advantageous for the wicker to craft her bookcase AFTER the manipulator has been made to ease the strain, it's not like the encyclopedia has any early game use anymore anyways.

TL;Dr

IF Wicker is smart she is better off creating a shadow manipulator first so people don't destroy her bookcase for the materials for a manipulator (also Wicker doing the inverse for her bookcase) or have to create a dozens encyclopedias which will devoid her of reeds. Before, the encyclopedias did not cost as much as  the shadow manipulator. Now they cost just as much if not more.

This opens the door to Wicker keeping the Living logs to herself and refusing to craft encyclopedias due to also wanting to keep the reeds for herself; after all, what's the point of a bookcase if you're not going to craft many, many books? Otherwise, she will have to ration the encyclopedia (so that it may be repaired) which will gate those crafts behind a single person or time (provided the item you wanted was not crafted). This places more responsibility on the wicker as well as somewhat killing the "early" crafts nature of the book (the materials for the manipulator where probably already to be had and a prestihatator can be crafted alongside gathering the materials for a manipulator).

Potential cost changes:

3 Living logs-Similar recipe as the manipulator and the forth living log is no longer comparative to that of a purple gem. Wicker can can craft people the manipulator crafts, at this point the encyclopedia is more of a responsibility than it is a perk as the requirement of the living logs still kills some of it's early game potential. There is also some flexibility in a tree guard providing the materials for both a manipulator and a bookcase (killing the encyclopedia, but it's not that great in this scenario anyways. Unless a purple gem was not found).

2 living logs: Cheaper than a manipulator, destroying a bookcase is no longer advantageous. The encyclopedia now has more early game potential when compared to the shadow manipulator. There is also a good chance a single mush gnome or poison birchnut tree will provide the necessary living logs for a single bookcase; thus giving the encyclopedia a more immediate net gain over the shadow manipulator.

"Quick! Everyone give your living logs to Wicker!" There is less strain over competition.

With two living logs it is always a win win scenario for everyone on the server, as well as keeping the bookcase around. 

OR you could also just completely drop the living log cost.

Please note: it is 3:30 am for me so excuse any inaccuracies, I will edit them as they are found.

[Gashzer]

Why is everyone worried about living logs? Lunar grotto is full of mush gnomes that respawn every day, you should never have to choose between the shadow manipulator or bookcase, any wicker worth her salt should easily be able to farm enough living logs for both before day 10 even on pub servers with all the hallowed trees burnt or cut down.

[hhh2]

Living logs are not very hard to get, but I would not be apposed to reducing the cost to three or two living logs. Although, I think it's very unlikely further chances will be made.

[skile]

unless it was changed, encyclopedia doesn't require a book case. 

[HowlVoid]

55 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Why is everyone worried about living logs? Lunar grotto is full of mush gnomes that respawn every day, you should never have to choose between the shadow manipulator or bookcase, any wicker worth her salt should easily be able to farm enough living logs for both before day 10 even on pub servers with all the hallowed trees burnt or cut down.

As explained this has less to do with "how hard" something is to be obtained and more with "how hard" it is to obtain something comparatively to something else.

In this case a purple gem to a fourth living log.

If I had to summarize everything I said into simple sentences it would be this:

Lowering the cost by 1 increases the odds of cooperation where all parties will have equal gain and possibly reduce competition.

Lowering the cost by 2 does the same by an even greater amount and removes competition for the same resources completely.

Considering the level of cooperation/competition  to wether the players have or don't have the sufficient skill will have varying amount of result. 

Considering the level of cooperation/competition based on the number of resources available as well as when they may become available will have more reliable results. This is a multiplayer game after all and all levels of skill and knowledge should be welcome. Cooperation should always be compensated and competition should provide no advantages (such as destroying her bookcase for yourself). Dst isn't usually pvp, and the development path of the game tells me the devs usually want to promote cooperation (and everyone hates griefing). 

Given you can get the necessary living logs within 10 days, (by the way I'm very curious on how you do this when you spawn mid winter?) I'm sure you won't be too bothered by having to acquire one less living log, right?

[dzzydzzy]

4 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

With Wickerbottom's bookcase you can craft the everything encyclopedia 

The encyclopedia costs: 2 papyrus(8 reeds), 2 electrical doodas

 Before, the encyclopedias did not cost as much as  the shadow manipulator. Now they cost just as much if not more.

2 inaccuracies: Nothing changed about the Encyclopedias cost. It is 2 papyrus, and 1 doodad. You do not need science nor bookcase for it, one could craft it on day 1. I'm not sure in what way that makes it more expensive than a manipulator. Also Bookcase should be prioritized before any books imo, as using books without being able to regenerate durability is stressful to me, personally. 

4 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

IF Wicker is smart she is better off creating a shadow manipulator first so people don't destroy her bookcase for the materials for a manipulator

Let's not ignore the fact that the bookcase still functions as an alchemy engine. If anyone's gonna grief that for liv logs they'd probably be griefing anyway.

[Joroc]

What started as an empty(no new mechanic like wendy, wolfgang, wigfrid...) patch has now become a depressing patch

[oregu]

Oh, yeah I'll go ahead and break a sisturn in base then once Wendy leaves. Why do people think people in pubs would act so greedily...

[HowlVoid]

1 hour ago, oregu said:

Oh, yeah I'll go ahead and break a sisturn in base then once Wendy leaves. Why do people think people in pubs would act so greedily...

I have witnessed first hand people destroying structures to fill their own pockets. A sisturn would hardly be worth destroying, but other things like science machine, alchemy engine, pig houses, bunnymen hutch for food, etc have been destroyed.

I once placed an alchemy engine on a road relatively close to the middle of the world and couple of other things for people to make a pit stop. It looked like a "base" so no one should of though it was abandoned. Next thing you know it was hammered and looted.  

[oregu]

Just now, HowlVoid said:

I have witnessed first hand people destroying structures to fill their own pockets. A sisturn would hardly be worth destroying, but other things like science machine, alchemy engine, pig houses, bunnymen hutch for food, etc have been destroyed.

I once placed an alchemy engine on a road relatively close to the middle of the world and couple of other things for people to make a pit stop. It looked like a "base" so no one should of though it was abandoned. Next thing you know it was hammered and looted.  

The structure is still useful for any Wickerbottoms to come in the server even if the current leaves. I'm sure Wicker will be a more popular character after the update.

[Mr Giggio]

12 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Why is everyone worried about living logs?

Yep

Like this just supervalorize Wormwood when people get lazy tl farm in Lunar Grotto xD I love that for him

7 hours ago, Joroc said:

What started as an empty(no new mechanic like wendy, wolfgang, wigfrid...) patch has now become a depressing patch

Im so concerned at how much people make assumptions like the anxiety of it all jumping to conclusions and how Wicker cursed the game ... Whats going on??

[oregu]

Just now, HowlVoid said:

I have witnessed first hand people destroying structures to fill their own pockets. A sisturn would hardly be worth destroying, but other things like science machine, alchemy engine, pig houses, bunnymen hutch for food, etc have been destroyed.

I once placed an alchemy engine on a road relatively close to the middle of the world and couple of other things for people to make a pit stop. It looked like a "base" so no one should of though it was abandoned. Next thing you know it was hammered and looted.  

Still sounds more like a player issue than a recipe issue.

[ShadowDuelist]

Wicker can give everyone manipulator  knowledge with a prestihatitor and reading the enciclopedia book.

That’s another option too. I mean the most people would use the manipulator tier in the early game would be 2 times, maybe 3. Wicker can provide that. And keep the early logs for herself, and maybe save on purple gems.

[Pruinae]

11 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Wicker can give everyone manipulator  knowledge with a prestihatitor and reading the enciclopedia book.

No need for the prstihatitator, a science machine is enough.

[HowlVoid]

7 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Wicker can give everyone manipulator  knowledge with a prestihatitor and reading the enciclopedia book.

That’s another option too. I mean the most people would use the manipulator tier in the early game would be 2 times, maybe 3. Wicker can provide that. And keep the early logs for herself, and maybe save on purple gems.

I believe I mentioned that, but I may not have included that in the TL;DR.

Wicker can keep the logs and a forth living log is comparable to a purple gem in certain cases. So in spending a forth living log you're not really "saving" a forth rare item (unless you specifically needed the gem and are Wormwood). Under certain conditions a purple gem is more common like coming across a bishop + a TNT. You may not want to wait for her to find a forth living log.

 So my proposal, put simply, is that the cost be reduced to three so that it is always advantageous to want to give the logs to Wicker. After all she can access the same recipes with a science machine and thus promoting cooperation. 

Reducing the price to two promotes this cooperation further while still maintaining similar drop chances as one would have in obtaining 3 through most mobs bonus drop chance (ex: two mush gnomes guarantee 2 but may drop a 3-4 between the two, poison birchnuts drop 2 but may drop a third etc), thus all it does is cut down on the reliance of RNG.