Achievement Hunter Crisis

[Chesmu]

Just now, Faintly Macabre said:

My dude, who are you to decide who games are and are not for?

It's not my decision ofcrouse, who are the scientists to decide water boils at 100c degrees? they just find the facts and write it down.

[Faintly Macabre]

4 minutes ago, Chesmu said:

It's not my decision ofcrouse, who are the scientists to decide water boils at 100c degrees? they just find the facts and write it down.

The fact is that people who like to rush things play this game and enjoy it, and their enjoyment is not any less valid than yours.

[Chesmu]

8 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

The fact is that people who like to rush things play this game and enjoy it, and their enjoyment is not any less valid than yours.

Of-course, but those who are in a rush due to limited time, they will spend the whole gameplay with trails and errors and dying of characters, not being able to get past that and explore the majority of the world. That causes frustration, abandoning of game, or suggestion of nerfs.

[Faintly Macabre]

Nevermind. Missed something when I reread.

[Chesmu]

4 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Not sure exactly what you're saying, but for the record, dude moved the goalposts on everybody. Note the original message is edited -- originally, the post complained that the game was in danger of being nerfed for people who wanted to do things, get achievements, and then go play something else. That was laughable, and everybody laughed, so he shifted gears.

All the written things including what you mentioned are already in the thread. Only an extra 5 lines of writing is added to the top. I will let it be known if I change my mind.

[Faintly Macabre]

12 minutes ago, Chesmu said:

All the written things including what you mentioned are already in the thread. Only an extra 5 lines of writing is added to the top. I will let it be known if I change my mind.

You're right, my bad. You are in fact still arguing about something laughable.

17 minutes ago, Chesmu said:

Of-course, but those who are in a rush due to limited time, they will spend the whole gameplay with trails and errors and dying of characters, not being able to get past that and explore the majority of the world. That causes frustration, abandoning of game, or suggestion of nerfs.

People with limited time who can't pick up a game readily just close the game and play something else. They don't sign up for the Klei forums to come discuss this game or fill out feedback forms about it because... uh, they don't have time.

And I continue to be baffled by people talking out of one side of their mouth about how hard and unforgiving the game is/was and the other about how easy it is. You can't have it both ways.

[Chesmu]

18 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

You're right, my bad. You are in fact still arguing about something laughable.

People with limited time who can't pick up a game readily just close the game and play something else. They don't sign up for the Klei forums to come discuss this game or fill out feedback forms about it because... uh, they don't have time.

And I continue to be baffled by people talking out of one side of their mouth about how hard and unforgiving the game is/was and the other about how easy it is. You can't have it both ways.

If they like the game, they will take a moment to give nerf suggestions with hope for future changes when they can come back playing.

As an example, being a streamer who aims to stream many different games in a day, Don't Starve Together will take a bit more of their time since it isn't a game with 10 minutes matches or quests to finish, but instead has layers of progress and discovery that lead to eachother. You can't pause the game, go AFK much wihtout building a good base or having a few other people around you to keep feeding the character, and viewers would not like a gameplay of only collecting 40 Grass and Twigs then logging off! Just like a movie, you need to put time and focus and not rush the progress. So to make their Streams more dynamic the nerf suggestions may come up as it did.

Written also in thread, the game is peace of cake, but the difficulty is at discovery and game-specific things, such as stats of a mob or their skills. Everyone has the trail and error progress of getting to know how some characters/mobs/seasons work, and in DST it lasts almost forever, which is a fun time.

 

[Faintly Macabre]

51 minutes ago, Chesmu said:

If they like the game, they will take a moment to give nerf suggestions with hope for future changes when they can come back playing.

Why would they like something that they can't play? They've had no chance to get invested. They have limited time, but you're insisting they have to take the time to enjoy it, but they can't take that time, so they don't enjoy it. So they're not invested. So they don't waste half an hour of their precious time finding some outlet to suggest nerfs to a game they don't have time to enjoy.

51 minutes ago, Chesmu said:

As an example, being a streamer

Streamers? Now streamers are coming for our uNcOmPrOmIsInG sUrViVaL? You think those people don't have better things to do than pursue balance changes to small games like this to make them more streamable? There are more games out there than a person could likely play in their lifetime. This is not a thing.

51 minutes ago, Chesmu said:

Written also in thread, the game is peace of cake, but the difficulty is at discovery and game-specific things, such as stats of a mob or their skills.

The game is a piece of cake, but the difficulty lies in... the game?

And all of this, by the way, is straying further and further from our achievement hunter bogeyman. Unless all these people are also achievement hunters. Achievement hunters with limited time but enough time to waste lobbying for changes to games with no achievements, or achievement hunting streamers who can't find a more productive way to accrue achievements and please viewers than to dedicate time to bothering indie game developers to change their games just for them.

[Cheggf]

3 hours ago, Chesmu said:

I wouldn't consider that a ture information since we are standing on living evidence.

This game has no achievements. It also doesn't have the devs making it easier just because people are asking for it. If anything threads like this which are mad that they got better at the game so it's not hard any more and are for some reason thinking the game just got easier are a lot more common.

You know when the game actually did get easier? When it came out. Or technically the beta I think. But no players rallied to Klei crying "Please! Make the multiplayer game have way more food and light everywhere! Please make resurrecting very easy! Please make many changes to make the game easier so that it's more playable on pubs! Also add achievements, too, for some reason, because those are what are motivating me!". Klei just did that on their own when they released Together. Well except for that last part, that only exists in your head.

[Mike23Ua]

You guys have everything backwards.. Achievement Hunters (as in people who actively play games just to get the achievements from them) don’t spend 30 minutes to accomplish easy tasks.. no- in fact true Achievement Hunters will dedicate their time (weeks, months.. sometimes years) to completion of a games Achievements some games even FORCE it upon you 

(to get an achievement in Batman Arkham City you need to visit Calendar Man’s prison cell on each real world Holiday of the year.)

I guess in a way, Achievement hunters can also be the most “Dedicated” in completing everything there is to do in a game: So long as there is an Achievement attached to doing it.

Someone who just wants a few quick achievements from an easy game likely aren’t the type of people who are going to stick with DST to survive a full year cycle or fully domesticate a Beefalo (both real achievements for the Xbox version of the game by the way)

[Faintly Macabre]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

You guys have everything backwards..

Who is "you guys"?

[Chesmu]

55 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

This game has no achievements. It also doesn't have the devs making it easier just because people are asking for it. If anything threads like this which are mad that they got better at the game so it's not hard any more and are for some reason thinking the game just got easier are a lot more common.

You know when the game actually did get easier? When it came out. Or technically the beta I think. But no players rallied to Klei crying "Please! Make the multiplayer game have way more food and light everywhere! Please make resurrecting very easy! Please make many changes to make the game easier so that it's more playable on pubs! Also add achievements, too, for some reason, because those are what are motivating me!". Klei just did that on their own when they released Together. Well except for that last part, that only exists in your head.

No not just because of that, Developers have their own reasons and plans too. We can't however deny their (hunters) infulence in threads and forums, even if they don't declare themselves with titles, because they don't need to for having a mindset of specific gaming style.

Maybe a streamer complained about their viewers getting bored watching them collect resources all day, and a dev happens to hear that, or maybe someone in forums mentioned they are quitting this game because they always die or can't kill a boss because it's "OP", and a dev happens to hear it. These all add up to make a suggestion and give idea of nerfing.

[Mike23Ua]

9 minutes ago, Chesmu said:

No not just because of that, Developers have their own reasons and plans too. We can't however deny their (hunters) infulence in threads and forums, even if they don't declare themselves with titles, because they don't need to for having a mindset of specific gaming style.

Maybe a streamer complained about their viewers getting bored watching them collect resources all day, and a dev happens to hear that, or maybe someone in forums mentioned they are quitting this game because they always die or can't kill a boss because it's "OP", and a dev happens to hear it. These all add up to make a suggestion and give idea of nerfing.

I’m pretty sure Klei knows what to nerf and what not to nerf.. anything that takes too long, is tedious & unfun needs to be nerfed, rather that’s expensive crafting costs, how slow something moves, how lame a fight is (AG before rework) if it can be adjusted to be more fun.. then by all means do it.

However, I think what you and many other forum members may be seeming to forget: is that once upon a time ago the only weather season the game had was Autumn, and when fans cried the game was too easy, Klei was already making Winter.. then fans cried it was too hard.. so Klei obviously can’t cater to everyone’s preferences, instead they should focus on delivering to whomever their targeted audience is.

Before I turn this into a TL:DR I’d rather have the costs it takes in making a boat cheaper so I get out to the water faster.. but to make up for that: Klei adds a lot more stuff to do out in the waters/islands at sea. With new Mobs, New Hazards, New Weather effects, gameplay mechanics and more..

And if reducing the costs of a boats crafting somehow reduces the games difficulty for you… perhaps that speaks volumes in lack of content outside of spending all your time gathering resources?

Yes gathering resources and managing inventory play a big part in the game, however.. there should be more biomes, mobs and hazards that keep me engaged and doing something other than walking through the woods gathering grass going-

I particularly don’t find gathering wood or grass to be as fun as say.. traveling through the poisonous swamp of Shipwrecked DLC where Flurps will jump up out of the ground after you.

and until Return of Them.. DST was pretty much just Solo DS without any of the ideas and features introduced in Klei’s SW/Hamlet expansions.

[Chesmu]

2 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Why would they like something that they can't play? They've had no chance to get invested. They have limited time, but you're insisting they have to take the time to enjoy it, but they can't take that time, so they don't enjoy it. So they're not invested. So they don't waste half an hour of their precious time finding some outlet to suggest nerfs to a game they don't have time to enjoy.

Exactly. They never get invested and play the game since this game would require a "No Life" as they put it, to be invested at. Now why would this bother some people if so? because of the exact mindset I'm complaining about! They are not after long-term investment in a game and feel a need, challenge or pressure to finish or "beat" every game in their library or an adventure due to their limited time or being in a rush, so they either move on as you said, or give suggestions to nerf the game so they can beat it.

You exaplined it very well how this mindset actually prevents people from enjoying games, and put it with a real-life time limit and suddenly every game has extended red carpets to victory and sweets.

2 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Streamers? Now streamers are coming for our uNcOmPrOmIsInG sUrViVaL? You think those people don't have better things to do than pursue balance changes to small games like this to make them more streamable? There are more games out there than a person could likely play in their lifetime. This is not a thing.

Why would you think they don't have better things to do? Streaming is their carrier so it has much more importance to them; DST is popular enough for them and is nothing close to being small. It's actually one of the leading genres of games picked up by streamers due to it's teamwork functions, being family friendly, expandable, with unique and weird stuff happening to talk about in streams.

The only thing they wouldn't like is the lenghty progress of things, or chores to survive, for example starting items help them avoid some time just picking grass and losing viewers. Unlike achievement hunters, Streamers look mostly for nerfing of core game functions, or to make them more dynamyc or to skip them, while achivement hunters do that to optional parts of the game like boss HP, season effects and unlocking of stuff; Now put that mindset and the carrier together, we get twice the effect.

@Mike23Ua

Yes some quality of life changes here and there is fine, then you look at the bigger picture and overall progress rate of this, and you see a game shrinking more and more.

I know it doesn't happen very fast, there is no real time "Danger" lurking around in forums, it's about not taking the wrong direction, and not cutting the fruit itself out while peeling it.

[Faintly Macabre]

3 hours ago, Chesmu said:

If they like the game, they will take a moment to give nerf suggestions with hope for future changes when they can come back playing.

 

2 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Why would they like something that they can't play? They've had no chance to get invested. They have limited time, but you're insisting they have to take the time to enjoy it, but they can't take that time, so they don't enjoy it. So they're not invested. So they don't waste half an hour of their precious time finding some outlet to suggest nerfs to a game they don't have time to enjoy.

 

33 minutes ago, Chesmu said:

Exactly.

I need a nap.

[00petar00]

8 hours ago, Chesmu said:

That is my point, why are you feeling forced to figure those things out to avoid hours of gameplay? is the gameplay something bad or do you not like playing? I'm saying people are running from experiencing an adventure and are too focused on "Beating" the challenge of the game.

You don't even need a crockpot recepie since you can eat raw food and it's everywhere! and it is already spoiled to you what makes what, because when you pick items, the item avatar on crafting menu becomes different color, guiding you that its recepie is ready.

The Life-Giving-Amulet already has all it does in the name when you hover over it, and it has a Red Gem on it! These are found difficult to discover because players don't think like an adventurer, and make the game a routine job.

As always I appriciate a vague non-explaining adventure game that constantly kills your character. It also fits the lore of DS world since characters enter the unknown world non-expecting.

PS: I personally don't like to have figured out everything and one anything in a game, since it expires the fun of it very much, nothing much to do then. Can spend many hours also failing, because games like this are not for people who are in rush; My busy days I also couldn't play DST and found it too time consuming, but if we were to make it playable and enjoyable for those in rush, with long-stay jobs, then it would be a totally different game.

You are kind of forced to figure out at least the basics when it comes to food and reviving items to be able to enjoy the game fully, while the systems in the game are non intuitive when it comes to you getting this information.

It is not about beating the game, i don't quit after i kill all bosses but build. The problem is that you can't just learn from the game, have you not ever looked up crockpot recipes and thoughts of other players to find the best ones?

I just don't think that game should have such difficulty when it comes to learning the basics that you literally need to use the wiki.

Players like you and partially me are in the minority, i also really enjoyed my experience when i was new and kept dying, majority of the gamers don't like that and i don't think the game should be made easier when it comes to difficulty, i think it should be harder but there's no reason not to have more information given to newer player.

CraftUI is going in the right direction, you are given a list of tools and science machine, i'd put crockpot and life giving amulet in there and it would be perfect to "guide" the player. This doesn't increase the difficulty for us while new players would have more of a leg to stand on.

I never said that everything should be given to you at the start, just the basic information that you wouldn't learn how important it is until you played for hundreds of hours if you didn't use the wiki.

[Chesmu]

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

You are kind of forced to figure out at least the basics when it comes to food and reviving items to be able to enjoy the game fully, while the systems in the game are non intuitive when it comes to you getting this information.

It is not about beating the game, i don't quit after i kill all bosses but build. The problem is that you can't just learn from the game, have you not ever looked up crockpot recipes and thoughts of other players to find the best ones?

I just don't think that game should have such difficulty when it comes to learning the basics that you literally need to use the wiki.

Players like you and partially me are in the minority, i also really enjoyed my experience when i was new and kept dying, majority of the gamers don't like that and i don't think the game should be made easier when it comes to difficulty, i think it should be harder but there's no reason not to have more information given to newer player.

CraftUI is going in the right direction, you are given a list of tools and science machine, i'd put crockpot and life giving amulet in there and it would be perfect to "guide" the player. This doesn't increase the difficulty for us while new players would have more of a leg to stand on.

I never said that everything should be given to you at the start, just the basic information that you wouldn't learn how important it is until you played for hundreds of hours if you didn't use the wiki.

I don't understand your point about food recepies; made maximum of 5 crockpot meals during my entire 3000 hours of playing, and those were the ones I've heared people spill the formula on chat! I would like learning the recepies but never had to use them to survive or to have more fun, in fact I've forgotten about the crockpot all together! For me the Butterfly Wings and some raw picked fruits do just fine to survive, and my enjoyment comes from exploring the map, building bases at the end and re-arrenging the whole map, and learning a new stuff while doing so; These do change time to time but my main focus was never on Crock Pot recepies.

I may search the wiki, but to find out what is new and added by an update, or to know the exact stats of a Boss just for sake of it, since I've never killed any Cave-dwelling or similar optional bosses just yet; another 3 thousand hours and I may start thinking about it.

The Life Giving Amulet should be made much more known tho! If a player plays solo, not finding any Touchstones, they will lose everything not knowing the alternative ways to revive themselves; Another thing like that is the killing darkness, which needs to be known, but wouldn't be a problem since it will happen to player once and they understand it forever.

Basics to survive are known after that: Security, Food, Light, and the stuff that make them which are on the surface world; After experiencing each season player will get to know about Thermal Stone, and then there is nothing to know other than making these in more efficient way, which actually means mastery of the game, not basics.

I think playing hundreds of hours to find out you were playing wrong is actually refreshing! It gives you a new start and new playstyle, an alternative way to play the game. If it wasn't for these things, this game would have less replayability.

[00petar00]

1 hour ago, Chesmu said:

I don't understand your point about food recepies; made maximum of 5 crockpot meals during my entire 3000 hours of playing, and those were the ones I've heared people spill the formula on chat! I would like learning the recepies but never had to use them to survive or to have more fun, in fact I've forgotten about the crockpot all together! For me the Butterfly Wings and some raw picked fruits do just fine to survive, and my enjoyment comes from exploring the map, building bases at the end and re-arrenging the whole map, and learning a new stuff while doing so; These do change time to time but my main focus was never on Crock Pot recepies.

I may search the wiki, but to find out what is new and added by an update, or to know the exact stats of a Boss just for sake of it, since I've never killed any Cave-dwelling or similar optional bosses just yet; another 3 thousand hours and I may start thinking about it.

The Life Giving Amulet should be made much more known tho! If a player plays solo, not finding any Touchstones, they will lose everything not knowing the alternative ways to revive themselves; Another thing like that is the killing darkness, which needs to be known, but wouldn't be a problem since it will happen to player once and they understand it forever.

Basics to survive are known after that: Security, Food, Light, and the stuff that make them which are on the surface world; After experiencing each season player will get to know about Thermal Stone, and then there is nothing to know other than making these in more efficient way, which actually means mastery of the game, not basics.

I think playing hundreds of hours to find out you were playing wrong is actually refreshing! It gives you a new start and new playstyle, an alternative way to play the game. If it wasn't for these things, this game would have less replayability.

The reason why crockpot recipes are my biggest complaint is that they are really hard to find on your own if you don't use any help and you will just randomly add items in there and won't know what is good and not and it really isn't fun to learn.

You can use a maximum of 5 crockpot recipes because you know that these 5 are one of the best ones, literally all you need is meatballs,pierogi, meaty stew and jellybeans but how would someone learn how to make these without any help or even know that these are one of the best choices? I also believe that there would probably be someone who killed bee queen and played hundreds of hours more and managed to kill her over and over and still didn't know how to make jellybeans.

I used to play on a PVP server during the earlier days of DST, i didn't make any base or do anything special for food except do hunts and anything that i can gather, you can literally survive permanently without going to caves or having a base, but is it fun? The same can be said about hunger and resources that you need to gather over and over again that it gets annoying to do, i don't know how you managed to get to 3000 hours without using crockpot extensively even for only a few simple recipes, i don't think that majority of the players that have 1000+ hours can do that.

Also you said that the DST difficulty mainly comes from discovery, i agree with you on this but didn't you contradict yourself, you are using wiki while you also think that majority of the game's difficulty comes from knowledge, so that means you are making it much easier on yourself.

So why would you read the wiki if you enjoy the difficulty of the game?

[Chesmu]

9 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Also you said that the DST difficulty mainly comes from discovery, i agree with you on this but didn't you contradict yourself, you are using wiki while you also think that majority of the game's difficulty comes from knowledge, so that means you are making it much easier on yourself.

So why would you read the wiki if you enjoy the difficulty of the game?

Not really. If someone used the wiki to find out functions of items they didn't even discover yet, or new places, that would be a spoiler.

9 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

The reason why crockpot recipes are my biggest complaint is that they are really hard to find on your own if you don't use any help and you will just randomly add items in there and won't know what is good and not and it really isn't fun to learn.

Yes there will be many trails and errors; some have the patience and enjoy this, but if you don't, then why not use the wiki.

9 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

You can use a maximum of 5 crockpot recipes because you know that these 5 are one of the best ones, literally all you need is meatballs,pierogi, meaty stew and jellybeans but how would someone learn how to make these without any help or even know that these are one of the best choices? I also believe that there would probably be someone who killed bee queen and played hundreds of hours more and managed to kill her over and over and still didn't know how to make jellybeans.

Two of the recepies you mentioned are not the ones I make, ever! I have 5 recepies and I use them mostly to avoid my raw food getting rotten, not because they are needed or best.

Can see what you are complaining about, accidentaly losing your hard-earned materal would be a frustration, I think it's ok if they added raw materials that are required near every recepie, but keeping the recepie and the looks of the food itseslf dark and not showing. (Like how they show you need twigs and grass for torch.)

9 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

I used to play on a PVP server during the earlier days of DST, i didn't make any base or do anything special for food except do hunts and anything that i can gather, you can literally survive permanently without going to caves or having a base, but is it fun? The same can be said about hunger and resources that you need to gather over and over again that it gets annoying to do, i don't know how you managed to get to 3000 hours without using crockpot extensively even for only a few simple recipes, i don't think that majority of the players that have 1000+ hours can do that.

Yeah the reason is I'm progressing in game with slow motion to enjoy more of the same content! There was a time I didn't even make those 5 recepies.