disscussion The 3 races as civilization what is your opinions on it and how would you improved on them? ( across every media )

[Waoling]

I want the race in DST to feel like actual civilization instead of a meat farm, we know that actual civilization existed before why can't these 3 races be more like them, they feel really flat I wish one of these "setting up the stage" content update is about civilization and how that affect the survivors, we had 2 of these races as playable characters we just need Bunnymen and then the representatives of the three races can finally focus on improving there civilization.

Spoiler

Klei what do you have against Bunnymen they got nothing new about them since the beginning ( the loot table is just a change that makes them a worse farm but adds nothing new to them ).

 

[jan Mele]

Merms only advance with Wurt's guidence. All hail Wurt!

[Waoling]

I think Bunnymen has the most agricultural advancement they were able to plant enough vegetables in caves that they can afford to be fat. 

I think Merm has the most architectural advancement they didn't need a key to the city to build it they only need one kid Merm the pig princess doesn't even know to make a town and it also looks cuter.

I think Pig has the most technological advancement they have furniture and clothing Merm and Bunnymen are naked why is nobody ever pointed out that?

I think Bunnymen has the most ideology advancement they follow pacifism and vegan diet they would attack anyone who eats or carry meat and also the other races have no idealogy so they are the only one.

I think Pig has the most social advancement they have king and queen and jobs and criminal now that is a good sign of society.

Spoiler

All hail Wurt!

 

[Masked Koopa]

54 minutes ago, Paoling said:

I think Bunnymen has the most agricultural advancement they were able to plant enough vegetables in caves that they can afford to be fat. 

I think Merm has the most architectural advancement they didn't need a key to the city to build it they only need one kid Merm the pig princess doesn't even know to make a town and it also looks cuter.

I think Pig has the most technological advancement they have furniture and clothing Merm and Bunnymen are naked why is nobody ever pointed out that?

I think Bunnymen has the most ideology advancement they follow pacifism and vegan diet they would attack anyone who eats or carry meat and also the other races have no idealogy so they are the only one.

I think Pig has the most social advancement they have king and queen and jobs and criminal now that is a good sign of society.

  Reveal hidden contents

All hail Wurt!

 

I don't think a lack of clothes should realistically be taken to mean too much. The reason the pigs would have clothing is mostly the reason humans have clothing - we're not really designed for the environments we tend to inject ourselves into. If you were a creature that actively enjoys getting wet you probably wouldn't think too much of clothes either.

Bunnymen strike me as not equal to merms or pigs. The way that act is decidedly more stupid than pigs or merms. While pigs and merms will retaliate against anyone who strikes them, bunnymen will all turn on something the moment a single bunnyman starts attacking it, which includes their own. They also speak in much fewer words and just generally seem more feral than a pig or a merm, even if they have houses, which explains their lack of leadership.

The deal between pigs and merms is that the pigs in RoG and DST constant are essentially colonizers from hamlet who seem to have abandoned much of the hamlet pig's advancements in favor of a more simple lifestyle. Their state in DST is essentially like if a bunch of luddites or mormons moved to an alien planet and started fighting with the natives.

Merms on the other hand seem to be somewhat down on their luck, and since the Wurt update the initial assumptions the game presented of merms being mindless beasts has been thoroughly upended. The reason they drop fish is because they have a cultural practice of keeping fish as pets, with them serving both as companions and as gifts to other respected merms. They have their own language, and they think a lot of what the humans do is weird - such as sleeping on straw rolls instead of on the ground. As the king of the merms shows, when given a reason to feel safe, they're actually the least aggressive of the three in the game. The reason they attack creatures that get close seems to be primarily due to fear, rather than some mindless hatred, wheras pigs and bunnies will instantly judge any monster they see. And as wurt is a merm guard herself, there's also the difficult task of deciding how much credit a wurt player's actions should get. 

 

Either way I do REALLY want to see a rework, at least for pigs and merms. I think they could be a great way to add a sort of tutorial to the game. For example:

- Make pig/merm villages have farms where they plant crops but don't properly care for them. Merms might grow durian while pigs could grow something like pumpkin or potato.

- Make them perfect at kiting by having them detect the current attack pattern of the enemy they are dealing with, and then deliberately introduce "mistakes" every few attacks to make it clear to players that kiting can be effective. Right now their kiting just looks pointless and only serves to make them more annoying to players.

- Make pigs/merms pick from their leafy berry bush farms and grass tuft patches, and make them get upset if you pick from their berry bushes/grass fields.

 

[jan Mele]

Why did people immideatly assume that merms are victims? Theres no evidence about the reasons for their rivaly with pigs to start. They raid each other. 

[minespatch]

6 minutes ago, jan Mele said:

Why did people immideatly assume that merms are victims? Theres no evidence about the reasons for their rivaly with pigs to start. They raid each other. 

[Masked Koopa]

27 minutes ago, jan Mele said:

Why did people immideatly assume that merms are victims? Theres no evidence about the reasons for their rivaly with pigs to start. They raid each other. 

Well it's worth pointing out that merms under the influence of the king of the merms won't be aggressive toward pigs, while pigs will always be aggressive toward merms, so it doesn't seem unlikely that pigs were the aggresors.

[Waoling]

29 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

Bunnymen strike me as not equal to merms or pigs. The way that act is decidedly more stupid than pigs or merms. While pigs and merms will retaliate against anyone who strikes them, bunnymen will all turn on something the moment a single bunnyman starts attacking it, which includes their own. They also speak in much fewer words and just generally seem more feral than a pig or a merm, even if they have houses, which explains their lack of leadership

They are not stupid they are more focused on the emotional intelligence side of things, Bunny man attacks as a group that is smarter and also safer, they will kill anything that has meat or is dangerous ( spider and Krampus ) so that they had a higher chance of survival if the player is allied with a bunny man and attack another bunny man all of the bunny man help because they think "that bunny man must have done something wrong why would a nice monkey that gives me food attack them", they know when to run, they speak fewer words but speak more correctly than the pig.

39 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

abandoned much of the hamlet pig's advancements in favor of a more simple lifestyle. Their state in DST is essentially like if a bunch of luddites or mormons moved to an alien planet and started fighting with the natives.

I want DST pigs to develop their own style and culture they have guardian pig and elite pig tattoo and belt we know nothing that does thing mean so I want that to be expanded upon.

[jan Mele]

2 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

Well it's worth pointing out that merms under the influence of the king of the merms won't be aggressive toward pigs, while pigs will always be aggressive toward merms, so it doesn't seem unlikely that pigs were the aggresors.

Maybe they just calm down? Wurt won't change her quotes about pigs, and "x attack out of fear" could be applied to pigs as well.

2 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

As the king of the merms shows, when given a reason to feel safe, they're actually the least aggressive of the three in the game. The reason they attack creatures that get close seems to be primarily due to fear, rather than some mindless hatred, wheras pigs and bunnies will instantly judge any monster they see. 

Pigs don't get buffs for keeping their king. They don't have specialized warriors either. Pig raid setpieces rarely/never happen in the swamp, and the merm house is placed on marsh turf. Normal merm houses look like ruined pig houses. I do admit that the Pig Village forest has a marsh area tho.

[Waoling]

I want to feel the emotions of the inhabitant in the constant, I want see what sort of color are in their emotions, I want to see all culture and festivals, I like to see what would be their local delicacy, I want to hear what been trouble them and what they hear, I want to see from a new perspective.

I just want to see the future of civilization in the constant.

[minespatch]

I went with Merm for Social advancement compared to the others due to Wurt's creation.

[Waoling]

I think they can add a ruler to Bunneyman so people would actually respect them I think maybe the president or something like that, it would boost their technology and architecture advancement.

[Pig Princess]

10 hours ago, Paoling said:

we had 2 of these races as playable characters

We have 1. Wilba doesn't exist in DST.

Plus if anyone starts a topic "I want character X from DLC to be playable in DST" people immediately come and yell "it will take eternity of devs valuable time", "no one cares about X", "X is boring" (to them, and it's automatically assumed to be true for everyone for some reason), "we already have enough characters/characters with some similar perks", "character X doesn't suit DST" (despite DLC characters getting basically rework upon porting to DST) and such. Best case scenario thread is buried, worst case scenario it's locked. "Suggestions and feedback" subforum feels dead place to which devs don't pay attention (I wish I was wrong about this).

Now on topic.

8 hours ago, Paoling said:

pig princess doesn't even know to make a town

Probably because Wilba is a princess, i.e. royalty, she is not supposed to know how to build house, Hamlet pigs have specialized builders for that. Another explanation may be that she doesn't have permission before she acquires key to the city, after all she is princess, not queen, and only queen can permit to build/demolish city(es), so one can argue that Wilba shows a good example of respecting law despite being royalty.

8 hours ago, Paoling said:

Bunnymen has the most ideology advancement they follow pacifism and vegan diet

Are you sure bunnymen are pacifists? Who are ready to tear apart everyone who are not like them/doesn't follow their rules (monsters, meat holders)? Looks more like excessive aggression and racism in general, and for me it's regression. As for being vegan, it's just their biology, they are in the same category as merms who can't eat meat and spiders who eat only meat products, there is no ideology.

I wish there was more lore regarding origing of DS/T races in general. Gorge events lead me to assumption that merms are cursed pigs and goats, same for merm houses resembling pig houses that lack upkeep, although some other bits of lore don't add up (no wonder considering quotes for merms were added years before Gorge event). Still, if that is true, then it can explain why pigs and merms are at war: pigs could be just afraid of curse and becoming something different, afraid of their cursed fellows, merms could feel hate towards society that rejected them, - very common reasons for enmity and conflicts in human society. But war could go for so long that both sides forgot what originally happened and hate each other because all they remember is other group hating them.

I also wish there was a way to pacify pigs towards other species, like Wurt can pacify merms and Webber - spiders; unfortunally, pig king doesn't care about his subjects, but if Wilba was ever added to DST, that could be one of her flavor perks: she is pig, she is royalty and she is from more advanced society - there is no reason for pigs to not listen to her, she is neutral to merms, doesn't like spiders but bears no hard feelings towards them. Bunnymen seem to be lost cause for me though.

Oh, and getting some information about rock lobsters would be cool: Maxwell says that he banished them to the caves for a reason, but I wonder if they can be connected to Ancients somehow (group that never went underground on their own and wasn't corrupted by fuel? Those who escaped in time and weren't turned into nightmares?).

Edit: I answered poll with only RoG part of pig race in mind, whether it's across DS/T universe or only DST exclusive should probably be clarified in the poll.

[minespatch]

26 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Probably because Wilba is a princess, i.e. royalty, she is not supposed to know how to build house, Hamlet pigs have specialized builders for that. Another explanation may be that she doesn't have permission before she acquires key to the city, after all she is princess, not queen, and only queen can permit to build/demolish city(es), so one can argue that Wilba shows a good example of respecting law despite being royalty.

Wilba's power is her piggy subjects giving her free goods.

[Pig Princess]

1 minute ago, minespatch said:

Wilba's power is her piggy subjects giving her free goods.

More like clutter her inventory with flint, logs and such. It's a nice touch though.

[Waoling]

36 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Bunnymen seem to be lost cause for me though.

I think Bunnymen needs more interesting stuff like structure, items, jobs, or a new mechanic or system.

They to me is so cute and interesting to me, a new civilization built not far away from the old one why don't they do anything with that, or tap into the beardlords from a bit more give it more ability or special mechanic or something please Klei please doesn't make Bunnymen a lost cause.

39 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Are you sure bunnymen are pacifists? Who are ready to tear apart everyone who are not like them/doesn't follow their rules (monsters, meat holders)? Looks more like excessive aggression and racism in general

More like peaceful people who only attack things that have meat ( Bunny men are made out of meat after all and they might want to eat them ) and Monster ( they wouldn't want to take the chance they could be killed which is fair ), it's not excessive aggression it's being careful.

[Pig Princess]

24 minutes ago, Paoling said:

More like peaceful people who only attack things that have meat

It doesn't seem peaceful at all to attack somebody who doesn't attack you. Others hold meat, so what? If anything, if they have meat and planning to eat meat, it's better to let them eat their meat instead of trying to kill them and become meat they eat as a result.

24 minutes ago, Paoling said:

and Monster ( they wouldn't want to take the chance they could be killed

Except this - "Don't want to take a chance" - can be used to justify any aggression to any extent. In case bunnymen, ironically, it leads to them indeed being killed even though those Webbers or Wortoxes originally didn't plan to do it at all.

Edit: somebody has to cross 4th wall and tell bunnymen that they were nerfed, so they can sleep safely.

[Waoling]

39 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

It doesn't seem peaceful at all to attack somebody who doesn't attack you. Others hold meat, so what? If anything, if they have meat and planning to eat meat, it's better to let them eat their meat instead of trying to kill them and become meat they eat as a result.

Okay, they might not be peaceful but want to, they just have high morale and low intelligence let me explain, the Bunnymen are people who hate murderers ( unless it's in the name of justice ) and things that eat meat ( like Monsters and Spiders ) and the "Others hold meat, so what? If anything, if they have meat and planning to eat meat, it's better to let them eat their meat instead of trying to kill them and become meat they eat as a result" it because of the ideology they believe that every living thing that eats meat are evil murder monsters whose need to die so that the reason they fight, why when we pick-ups meats it bad because they are no reason to touch meats other than to eat it, why does they all group-ups and attack the one bunnyman you fight it because you are trustworthy because you give them food and that would mean that you must have a good reason for fighting them the other bunnymen see what happend know what you did before deicided to help you out because you are a "good person"

52 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Except this - "Don't want to take a chance" - can be used to justify any aggression to any extent. In case bunnymen, ironically, it leads to them indeed being killed even though those Webbers or Wortoxes originally didn't plan to do it at all.

 

They Don't want to take a chance to be killed but also because of their righteous spirit I re-examed the quote and I found out that they have high moral characters when they seem to be a threat they will destroy them to keep things peaceful and if that threat is out of the town vicinity they have no reason to chase it they gone and probably won't come back after knowing what they could do, Webber and Wortox are monsters and they won't accept that, they kinda like wannabe superheroes who when see even a bit of meat or bloodshed from their races ( unless you are friend with one of them then they think that bunny man is in the wrong ) and think that are the most devilish thing ever and are also dumb.

[demon3000]

Pigs in DST exiles because cursed. Their houses look real and look like houses from Hamlet, than big carrot Bunnyman and house Merm. He best civilization.

Bunnyman very primitive. They grow carrots for house and hate smell of meat. He not civilization. 

Merm very different. Its civilization curse Gorge and lost all knowledge. Wurt help to revive civilization, but they very aggressive.

P.S. Why everyone forget Mc Tusk. They build igloo every winter, tame hounds, users weapons, but they need only for hats and tusks. 

[hhh2]

4 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

More like clutter her inventory with flint, logs and such. It's a nice touch though.

imagine you are king/queen in real life and your subjects are always trying to give you random stuff they find on the gound

[Owlrust]

Ok no joke, I think the MacTusk's are the most advanced. They have specialized clothing, weapons, hunting systems, and architectural advancements that require an understanding of internal heating. They even developed their own refracted lens and arrive specifically for the "sport" of hunting, leaving to an unspecified location in the off seasons. Pigs have their Hamlet true, but that's isolated from the rest of the Constant. Merm culture has little to do with their past Goat-ancestry lives, and Bunnymen have little intelligence in general (even compared to the pigs). By game standards MacTusks were the first glimpse of a truly advanced culture within the Constant that is still thriving.

[Waoling]

1 hour ago, Owlrust said:

Bunnymen have little intelligence in general

Bunnymen is the cutest races and also the bravest races they the only intelligence races ( that can build and not dead ) to be under ground so I think that they deserve so much more.

[jan Mele]

[Masked Koopa]

3 hours ago, jan Mele said:

you

[jan Mele]

38 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

you

your mum