Is Nona just a switch character? (the answer will surprise you)

[ALCRD]

Nah she's a PC character too

[Dr. Safety]

It's important to make the distinction between fun and viability. Yes you may find her fun, but that doesn't mean that she has any viability (in terms of staying as her once you build her stuff). It would be like saying that pre reworked Woodie is fine because hey, at least some people find him fun to play as!

Yeah we can't balance things around "the meta" as we've seen how that worked out for Wolfgang, but there still needs to be balance. Not in this thread, but in other Winona threads I've seen people say things like "Well Winona being a swap character doesn't really matter that much. Balance isn't an important factor since this isn't a PvP game. It's cooperative, so it's alright that some characters are better than others". Obviously I agree to an extent, but that argument goes both ways. Balance shouldn't only not matter as an explanation for why a character is lackluster. If Winona is lackluster, she should be buffed since balance apparently doesn't matter anyway. Literally the only thing she has going for her are her buildings which can be used without her, and then some useless perks. The only reason to play her for long periods of time is if you like her personality, or you don't like character swapping. As long as character swapping exists, it is something that should be considered. She needs something more than just her personality 

[Cuernito.]

13 hours ago, Dr. Safety said:

It's important to make the distinction between fun and viability. Yes you may find her fun, but that doesn't mean that she has any viability (in terms of staying as her once you build her stuff). It would be like saying that pre reworked Woodie is fine because hey, at least some people find him fun to play as!

Yeah we can't balance things around "the meta" as we've seen how that worked out for Wolfgang, but there still needs to be balance. Not in this thread, but in other Winona threads I've seen people say things like "Well Winona being a swap character doesn't really matter that much. Balance isn't an important factor since this isn't a PvP game. It's cooperative, so it's alright that some characters are better than others". Obviously I agree to an extent, but that argument goes both ways. Balance shouldn't only not matter as an explanation for why a character is lackluster. If Winona is lackluster, she should be buffed since balance apparently doesn't matter anyway. Literally the only thing she has going for her are her buildings which can be used without her, and then some useless perks. The only reason to play her for long periods of time is if you like her personality, or you don't like character swapping. As long as character swapping exists, it is something that should be considered. She needs something more than just her personality 

First i think  people already know that these terms are not the same.

Second, from my perspective talking about viability in a no PVP game si pointless, You are not competing with anyone so you don't need to focus about optimal gameplay...

Now about your last statement you are just lying, i don't play Winona in long term worlds just cause her personality or cause i don't like swapping characters, i actually enjoy the extra crafting speed, yeah it's just a tiny niche perk but it's enough for me, as i wrote in my post i have played all  characters and just got bored of all of them, i like Winona cause a lot of reasons like the way she can slam bee Queen no day 5, and maybe on my day off i should make an appreciation post about her idk, but the thing is i don't think she is lackluster in any way.

Finally i will say again that i'm not against the idea of a buff or something, it's just that i can enjoy her gameplay and yeah not cause her personality :b.

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

14 hours ago, Dr. Safety said:

It's important to make the distinction between fun and viability. Yes you may find her fun, but that doesn't mean that she has any viability (in terms of staying as her once you build her stuff). It would be like saying that pre reworked Woodie is fine because hey, at least some people find him fun to play as!

Yeah we can't balance things around "the meta" as we've seen how that worked out for Wolfgang, but there still needs to be balance. Not in this thread, but in other Winona threads I've seen people say things like "Well Winona being a swap character doesn't really matter that much. Balance isn't an important factor since this isn't a PvP game. It's cooperative, so it's alright that some characters are better than others". Obviously I agree to an extent, but that argument goes both ways. Balance shouldn't only not matter as an explanation for why a character is lackluster. If Winona is lackluster, she should be buffed since balance apparently doesn't matter anyway. Literally the only thing she has going for her are her buildings which can be used without her, and then some useless perks. The only reason to play her for long periods of time is if you like her personality, or you don't like character swapping. As long as character swapping exists, it is something that should be considered. She needs something more than just her personality 

how is winona inviable and how the portal affects she being a bland "wilson like" and annoying character?

[Dr. Safety]

3 hours ago, NekoSoulx said:

First i think  people already know that these terms are not the same.

Second, from my perspective talking about viability in a no PVP game si pointless, You are not competing with anyone so you don't need to focus about optimal gameplay...

Now about your last statement you are just lying, i don't play Winona in long term worlds just cause her personality or cause i don't like swapping characters, i actually enjoy the extra crafting speed, yeah it's just a tiny niche perk but it's enough for me, as i wrote in my post i have played all  characters and just got bored of all of them, i like Winona cause a lot of reasons like the way she can slam bee Queen no day 5, and maybe on my day off i should make an appreciation post about her idk, but the thing is i don't think she is lackluster in any way.

Finally i will say again that i'm not against the idea of a buff or something, it's just that i can enjoy her gameplay and yeah not cause her personality :b.

Viability is absolutely important in game design, in both competitive games and co-op games. It's why the characters are being refreshed. "Our goals here are to make each character unique, interesting and valuable in their own right and we expect this to be game changing in many ways". Winona was absolutely unique and valuable, until they added character swapping which made it so that her "uniqueness" wasn't so unique to her. I'm not saying character swapping is bad, I am just saying that she needs more to compensate for having her upsides be free for any survivor to use. At that point, why have Winona at all? Just make her craftables some late game stuff and remove her character entirely (Obviously I'm not saying that this should happen, I'm just using it to make a point).

I have no problems with simple upsides, as they add flavor to characters. When I first unlocked him in single player, I loved Maxwell for nothing more than his sanity gain. The problem is Maxwell wouldn't be a very good character if that is all that was unique to him. I'm not saying that Winona should be completely changed as I know people love her concept, and gameplay. All I'm proposing is that she gets some kind of unique interaction with her buildings so that when she crafts all that is needed, she still has some real reason to keep playing.

Sorry if I came off as aggressive, I don't want it to seem like I am arguing with you directly, just stating my thoughts in your thread. My main point was that I feel that balance still matters in games that aren't competitive. The idea that she shouldn't get another perk simply because "its not a competitive game and balance doesn't matter" isn't a good argument as it works both ways. After I posted that I realized it kind of came off as me attacking you, as the OP, and I apologize for that.

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

how is winona inviable and how the portal affects she being a bland "wilson like" and annoying character?

I'm not sure I understand the question. She loses any reason to play as her over someone else once her stuff is built. Once she peaks, that is it, you might as well switch characters and get the main upside of two.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

I'm not sure I understand the question. She loses any reason to play as her over someone else once her stuff is built. Once she peaks, that is it, you might as well switch characters and get the main upside of two.

because she doesnt offer annything important, that is why, not because you can cheese things with catapults without her

you can farm as wormwood too but still there are many wormwood lovers because he is fun but people at most will play her because of crafting speed or her few structures because even wes is more interesting

i dont think taking into consideration that the portal exists as a smart thing since can limit character designs, if they took that into account things like having x6 damage could never happend making non wolf and wanda players not enjoying that

characters should be interesting and fun because a videogame should offer that not just because of the portal

[Dr. Safety]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

because she doesnt offer annything important, that is why, not because you can cheese things with catapults without her

you can farm as wormwood too but still there are many wormwood lovers because he is fun but people at most will play her because of crafting speed or her few structures because even wes is more interesting

i dont think taking into consideration that the portal exists as a smart thing since can limit character designs, if they took that into account things like having x6 damage could never happend making non wolf and wanda players not enjoying that

characters should be interesting and fun because a videogame should offer that not just because of the portal

So we both agree that she is bland once all of her stuff is built, you are just saying that the portal shouldn't be the reason to give her a buff and instead her bland perks should be the reason to give her a buff?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

12 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

So we both agree that she is bland once all of her stuff is built, you are just saying that the portal shouldn't be the reason to give her a buff and instead her bland perks should be the reason to give her a buff?

yep sounds similar but i think it marks a big difference

[Mantispidae]

A character can have pretty big downsides, or be bad in the long term, or a hundred things while still being a character people really like to play.

Lets use Warly as an example- lots of people agree hes a swap character because you can just swap to him, make dozens of his special dishes, and then swap away and use those dishes on other characters freely. But people still really like Warly and still play him because he does change the way game is played and has some fun things going on with his character specifically. That's not enough for everyone, but its all some people want out of him.

Conversely, I play wormwood despite any perks or downsides he might have just because I like the little guy and think hes cute. Theres no meta or viability in that pick, its solely for character. I feel similar with Wurt and shes more in the "people think shes actively kinda bad" camp, but shes cute and I like her so I play her. Most people who play Winona feel the same way- They just like her, so they play her. 

Winona is cool to me, I like her, and I've enjoyed playing her. I also will confess that she absolutely has gotten the short end of the stick. She's not lame or boring as a character she just doesn't have much going for her in a way that feels... particularly noticeable? Maybe it's because she does have a neat background as an engineer that just feels underused. She has structures and some small craft speed gimmicks and that's really it. As an engineer, it makes sense to a degree her biggest perks are tied to structures but they are, overall, pretty benign structures that anyone else can manage. That's why she's considered a swap- because anyone can just place those down, swap once the novity of Winona has wore off and go about their day only really losing some crafting speed and a cool voice.  

I don't even think its bad to be a 'swap' character but Winona deserves to at least provide something of note if you stick with her. She's a workman in a game about working hard to not die in the wilderness she should get... something outta that. Let her do tech upgrades or something.

[Atkvin]

6 hours ago, Mantispidae said:

Maybe it's because she does have a neat background as an engineer that just feels underused. She has structures and some small craft speed gimmicks and that's really it.

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/137544-the-winona-rework/

Just plugging my Winona rework post a little, but my main ideas were to turn her useless free hit from Charlie into an offensive AOE attack around her for an alternative method of attacking without weapons - giving her a welding mask that she can wear to induce darkness and use that AOE freely - as well as a welding torch exclusively used by Winona with the mask to fuse equipment durability up to 200%.

All this, combined with her trusty tape balances out her new downside (replacing hunger-crafting stuff) where she forgets prototyped recipes unless she consistently crafts the item - designing her new gameplay to be reliant on crafting stations or friends due to limited accessibility to craft equipment on the go if she doesn't actively re-craft items she needs, but having the ability to maintain and streamline her team's equipment with the Welding Torch or save on resources with her AOE and catapults.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 hours ago, Atkvin said:

her useless free hit from Charlie

isnt suppose to be useful, is just to remark that she is her sister so she doubts on killing her

[Mike23Ua]

What really makes me upset with Klei is fixing Winona so that she is no more or less a pick/swap character as Wolfgang/Wendy/Webber/Willow or Wurt is that they ALREADY have game mechanics in their game that do EXACTLY what Winona’s builds SHOULD do.

Mechanics that are currently being wasted on Mini-Games for a Event.

Now tell me: How in the Heck is having Winona’s Structures Retract into the ground and walk across able like the above photo so that whenever Winona isn’t IN the Server her structures aren’t useable: HOW is that any different from Bernie not being able to Activate into BERNIE! If your not Willow? Or you can’t recruit Merms if your not playing Wurt? Florp..

Its a simple fix, that’s already in the game: and if you want to use Winona’s Catapults: Requires you to switch to Nona to use.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Its a simple fix

isnt a fix and doesnt make her more interesting, period

[Mike23Ua]

23 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

isnt a fix and doesnt make her more interesting, period

It’s not intended to make her more interesting, it’s intended to make using her for her “Kit” require just as many switch idol sacrifices as it would if you wanted to utilize Wolfgang’s 2x damage, or Wendy’s AoE, or Wurts ability to befriend normally hostile Merm Mobs or Walters Slingshot & Woby

… You get the Idea.

Currently people pick Winona build her structures and then likely never touch her AGAIN because literally anyone can use her items.

No one but Wigfrid can use her scrolls or benefit from her vampirism.

Winona’s gameplay ARE those structures your building once then never bothering with picking her again.

I have absolutely ZERO Interest in trying to suggest ways to make Winona more interesting because JoeW seems to imply they’re Done with her.

If you want to utilize Wolfgang’s Gym/Dumbells you have to actually play as Wolfgang to do it.

Winona is quite literally the only character in the entire game who once you build her structures: Winona isn’t needed in the world at all anymore.

And… people have a clear cut Advantage in picking Winona only once to set up her stuff and then pick someone better.

UNLIKE Wolfgang/Wendy/Wanda etc.. where you will need to use a Portal Swap Idol each time you want to utilize their perks.. WINONA can be used only ONCE and then tossed aside like Yesterdays Newspaper.

This isn’t intended to make Winona more interesting or fun… it’s intended to make using her exclusive stuff require using just as many celestial Idols as it would if you wanted to utilize Wolfgang’s 2x damage.

The TL:DR- If a Willow player can throw down a stuffed Teddy Bear that only enlarges when a WILLOW is near to it and insane, then a Winona’s structures could only activate when a Winona is there to power them.

like I said.., Simple.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

.

1) she will be a bad team player because her partners wont be able to take advantage of her when she is doing other stuff far away. Example. winona build an useless hound defense because she will need to be there to protect ywr partners so why mind picking her in the 1st place if her partners will still need to build other hound defenses if they need them? 

2) limit the the choices for solo and players who play with few people.Mixing perks can be fun and refreshing, limiting it is a dumb idea and you as console player who is always complaining about bosses should be against your own idea because these kind of things help people who is learning the game 

3) doesnt offer nothing to make you pick her. Why would someone pick her to grind catapults when someone can just pick warly and cook buff foods for years and pic their fav character. She will be even less interesting. Seems like you dont care about this point but i bet most of the players do

4) wont happen never because devs have better things to do than wasting time changing that because few people thinking this horrible idea will offer something. Coding cost money because you have to pay devs so is better to use their time in something that will be fun so they recover that money wasted and some profits. Some users think that they have a magicall wand that makes dreams become true

5) you dont need to play willow to have bernies tanking damage like you dont need wendy for using her useless sanity station or walter tent or to enjoy a bundle filled with warly dishes with spices farmed by wormwood, or you can simply build merm warriors equiped with wigfrid helmets arround the map and play wolfgang with Groucho glasses because that is more interesting than changing things into something annoying

6) why do you even care? play the game like you like. Is more important to have fun characters than nerfing stuff just because portal. In my +4k hours i changed arround 6 times, do you see me complaining about players building catapults+cooking volt goat jelly+picking wolfgang to melt a boss? dont do it if you dont want. Later you are the first one calling others elitist just because we told you to know what you talk about so you dont spreed miss information not because we wanna force you to play in the way we play but your comment do smell like elitism since your entire suggestion is based on "i dont like people using winona buildings without winona" which i bet is something totally intented to make her more useful instead of needing to babysit her machines if someone wants to use them

[Mike23Ua]

14 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

-snip-

I never said she needed to be NEAR her Contraptions.. just that she needed to be actively within the game for them to Function at all..

For example: Maybe she spawns with an animation where she pulls out a funny looking high tech remote and has a quote “Alright it’s time to power up my Machines” a 1 second animation when first joining a world and all structures are activated.

when Winona exits the server she has a quote “Wouldn’t want everyone to start being less productive in my absence I had better power down my devices”

The intent behind this is to make players need to actively swap to Winona each time they want to get use out of her structures, same way you need to actually swap to Wendy to use Abigail, or Wolfgang to reap 2x Mighty Damage- You have to swap to these characters every single time you want to take advantage of their unique perks.

Even Wigfrid who can craft spears and armors for everyone still needs to be actively within the server to take advantage of her Stagecraft scrolls & Life Leech perks.

Winona on the other hand falls into a sad category of One and then Done.

To translate this so Anyone can understand it….

Its like if you played as Wortox stacked a bunch of Souls for his exclusive abilities/perks and THEN you swapped to someone other than Wortox to be able to use those souls outside of playing as Wortox.

Its just not fair to Winona…

And I’m not here to discuss new crazy contraptions to give her, I’m here to discuss ways of making her not become a One & then Done structure swap.

[JustExo]

As somebody who mains Winona: she is a swap character, not only that but she's the best one for it

Her best use is her catapults which aren't technically character specific, which means you can swap off her smoothly.

You can however, make the argument that every character is a swap character, because you can argue that swapping is the most efficient way to do things: need to kill a boss? Swap to a character that's better for fighting. Need to harvest materials? Swap to characters that do it better. Heck, if you really wanted to, you could swap characters to move slightly faster, or move statues, or just for the heck of it.

The biggest counterargument to saying X characters aren't swap characters is that: the abilities that are intrinsic to the character is what makes them not a swap character, but for Winona, her main appeal is her structures. Winona is designed to make her structures, and thats the big selling point.

The fix that I think could be implemented is to put emphasis on those intrinsic abilities that characters have, or to introduce new ones. Even with Winona, if she just got more out of her structures and had more of them, people would be less willing to swap off of her, and more likely to experiment with her 

[Memetan]

[JustExo]

On 2/19/2022 at 5:50 PM, Mike23Ua said:

I never said she needed to be NEAR her Contraptions.. just that she needed to be actively within the game for them to Function at all..

For example: Maybe she spawns with an animation where she pulls out a funny looking high tech remote and has a quote “Alright it’s time to power up my Machines” a 1 second animation when first joining a world and all structures are activated.

when Winona exits the server she has a quote “Wouldn’t want everyone to start being less productive in my absence I had better power down my devices”

The intent behind this is to make players need to actively swap to Winona each time they want to get use out of her structures, same way you need to actually swap to Wendy to use Abigail, or Wolfgang to reap 2x Mighty Damage- You have to swap to these characters every single time you want to take advantage of their unique perks.

Even Wigfrid who can craft spears and armors for everyone still needs to be actively within the server to take advantage of her Stagecraft scrolls & Life Leech perks.

Winona on the other hand falls into a sad category of One and then Done.

To translate this so Anyone can understand it….

Its like if you played as Wortox stacked a bunch of Souls for his exclusive abilities/perks and THEN you swapped to someone other than Wortox to be able to use those souls outside of playing as Wortox.

Its just not fair to Winona…

And I’m not here to discuss new crazy contraptions to give her, I’m here to discuss ways of making her not become a One & then Done structure swap.

This is all taking the approach of *having* to play winona when the sentiment should be you get to play winona

Players shouldn't be punished for playing in a way they want to, they should be incentivized to play the way that is most fun.