So hows Wolfgang?

[Cloakingsumo198]

13 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

What is your experience with the backstep watch?

My experience is that few attacks can be dodged on reaction.  In order to use this you must already know the kiting pattern of the enemy, so the skill requirement is at *least* the same skill as kiting.  The time it takes to use the watch is about the same as walking out to kite and going back in so you don't gain anything using the watch over kiting.  It also has its quirks like losing aggro, or the teleport putting you in a bad spot.  If you try to dodge all of dfly attacks with it you're likely to backstep right into her rage stomp.  Try using it against Ancient Guardian lol you get put underneath that guy and he gets a guaranteed double smack on you XD  not cool.

In short I'd say - if you can move to dodge its best to still do that.  If you have something niche like bishop's ranged attack, dfly's lunge, escaping bone prison etc then its amazing *for that attack*  I don't carry it with me most times because kiting is more reliable and always available.

Why are they picking Wanda?  Are people actually picking Wanda *only* for ageless?  I don't buy it.  I don't think its a bad idea, but I don't think its something a new player would do - I also don't think its a good idea b/c if they don't know how to do basic healing they need to learn that.  Picking Wigfrid or Wanda as a crutch because they don't know basic healing isn't going to help them.

Nor are they watching their health timer constantly tick down.  If they can't kill some butterflies, or pick some bluecaps, I don't see Wanda helping much either...  What they have is an "I don't know this game" problem, and its not solved by a "great if you know the game" solution.

All I can say is to that is don't start gate keeping this character like how edgy rick did for wolfgang. That's how this whole hate debacle started for Wolfgang, let players choose who they want to be, Wanda isn't only for experienced players she is an EXPERIENCE in herself, just like how Webber first shook up the ds gameplay loop when he first came out, Wanda has her own crazy twist on the game to be enjoyed. Like most things players will adjust and learn, we don't need to act in this elitest manner of the "right" and "best" way to play, this game is diverse for a reason.

Can you use the backstep watch to lose agro completely? I have so many questions I think I should just buy Wanda

[Yuuko]

14 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Can you use the backstep watch to lose agro completely? I have so many questions I think I should just buy Wanda

She is really fun, I'd recommend her.  Backstep sometimes loses aggro, but its not predictable.  Using a walking cane, or Wortox teleport also does this sometimes.

[Toroic]

Wanda needs to dodge reasonably well before she can beat bosses better than other characters, but I think it is misleading to say that new players can’t enjoy her or use her effectively, and in a team her weaknesses are reduced significantly and her strengths are just as strong.

She has a great design overall though I do feel alarming clock has absurd base damage.

[Mike23Ua]

Confused how a thread about Wolfgang became all about Wanda, but with as little as two ageless clocks Wanda can practically pump out infinite revives- and that’s WITHOUT the actual clock that revives anyone, her using telltale hearts doesn’t cost her any health core because she literally doesn’t have a health core.. so she can craft these things for free & just rewind her age.

I also challenge any of you to play old age Wanda on an Xbox One console: You let me know how that turns out for you.. the lag, your constant ticking out health, both can & will kill you.

Even without using Wanda in Elderly form: Free healing with infinite telltale hearts, free healing with her watch: Wanda doesn’t require skill if you have a server full of noobs doing all the tasks for her.

In fact I would put Wanda in a tier with Wendy: they are BOTH good at standing around being idle while also being super helpful to other players who are actually doing stuff.

Wolfgang now stands around being completely idle too… except he isn’t helpful to anyone while doing it.

[Mysterious box]

34 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

What is your experience with the backstep watch?

My experience is that few attacks can be dodged on reaction.  In order to use this you must already know the kiting pattern of the enemy, so the skill requirement is at *least* the same skill as kiting.  The time it takes to use the watch is about the same as walking out to kite and going back in so you don't gain anything using the watch over kiting.  It also has its quirks like losing aggro, or the teleport putting you in a bad spot.  If you try to dodge all of dfly attacks with it you're likely to backstep right into her rage stomp.  Try using it against Ancient Guardian lol you get put underneath that guy and he gets a guaranteed double smack on you XD  not cool.

In short I'd say - if you can move to dodge its best to still do that.  If you have something niche like bishop's ranged attack, dfly's lunge, escaping bone prison etc then its amazing *for that attack*  I don't carry it with me most times because kiting is more reliable and always available.

Personally I find it easier using the backtrack watch but I won't deny it could be a feel scenario that being said keep in mind there will be a light on screen showing where you'll warp to when warping.

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Confused how a thread about Wolfgang became all about Wanda, but with as little as two ageless clocks Wanda can practically pump out infinite revives- and that’s WITHOUT the actual clock that revives anyone, her using telltale hearts doesn’t cost her any health core because she literally doesn’t have a health core.. so she can craft these things for free & just rewind her age.

I also challenge any of you to play old age Wanda on an Xbox One console: You let me know how that turns out for you.. the lag, your constant ticking out health, both can & will kill you.

Even without using Wanda in Elderly form: Free healing with infinite telltale hearts, free healing with her watch: Wanda doesn’t require skill if you have a server full of noobs doing all the tasks for her.

In fact I would put Wanda in a tier with Wendy: they are BOTH good at standing around being idle while also being super helpful to other players who are actually doing stuff.

Wolfgang now stands around being completely idle too… except he isn’t helpful to anyone while doing it.

Buy me a xbox one and we have a deal

[Cloakingsumo198]

I never wanted to start this tangent about Wanda that's why I made that joke at the beginning but she is the only one that can compare to Wolfgang in damage and I can't stand the argument that she deserves it all completely cause she's the most "difficult" she has extreme depth, utility, and damage on top of being extremely cool and helpful to herself AND her team. Wolfgang got completely blown out of the water when she came to be and I find that okay she is "harder" cause when min-maxing for damage she is low hp but overall as a CHARACTER she really isn't hard....

[Mysterious box]

40 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

but she is the only one that can compare to Wolfgang

And webber took that personally.

[Cloakingsumo198]

7 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

And webber took that personally.

I'd compete Webber with wurt or even Winona in terms of fighting style 

[Keller Max]

1 hour ago, Toros said:

Wanda needs to dodge reasonably well before she can beat bosses better than other characters, but I think it is misleading to say that new players can’t enjoy her or use her effectively, and in a team her weaknesses are reduced significantly and her strengths are just as strong.

She has a great design overall though I do feel alarming clock has absurd base damage.

Still can't 1 hit spiders on her Middle-Age

Still strong though

[Toroic]

4 minutes ago, Keller Max said:

Still can't 1 hit spiders on her Medium-Age

Ok?  It’s literally just old wanda and mighty wolf who can do that without a blowdart or volt goat jelly

[Mysterious box]

9 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

I'd compete Webber with wurt or even Winona in terms of fighting style 

I was talking more about in terms of stable damage output I get merms can't really fight as many bosses and more often than not just not worth the effort to carry around just to fight nor.al mobs where as spiders are more so just a extension of his standard strength. 

[dubious little]

Let him walk with the dumbells and all my issues are gone really.

[Pig Princess]

While people are writing from perspective of playing as new Wolfgang, I would like to write from perspective of Wolfgang's teammate. I have a friend who enjoyed Wolfgang in the past and still tried to enjoy him recently, I encountered a few strangers on pub who seemed to be medium-skilled, and I witnessed the same pattern in those cases: all team has to make a choice - either everyone stand still ready to fight and watch Wolfgang lifting weights (but Wolf player is not left out), or team starts fight without him (for example, when it can't wait like shadow pieces). I bet it was disturbing for all these Wolfgangs to see Warly (me) being more helpful in fight then them just because my character wasn't destroyed by minigame and had more features than Wilson to help in fight in multiplayer. I didn't contribute more and they less because of the skill in those cases, they just picked character who was doomed by his rework.

People write that there is no need for balance in PVE game, there is no competition... Maybe for them it doesn't matter, but I would be unsatisfied if despite all my effort I couldn't really contribute as much as everyone else only because of my character choice. I feel that way about Warly in early- and - to lesser extent - mid-game, but at least this changes in lategame, with Wolfgang, however, I didn't see improvement with days on server passing.

Just to make it clear: I'm talking about multiplayer invironment, medium+ skilled players, fights (aspect where pre-rework Wolfgang had advantage).

I also saw Wolfgangs trying to help me to move statues (understandable, since it's one of their perks), but they ended up leaving because my beefalo was much better for general movement, and for precise statue positioning (we were preparing for moonstone event) character choice made absolutely no difference.

My Wolfgang friend picks Wendy and Wigfrid much more often now. Not Wanda though, but that probably has to do with the fact that they has bad internet and the lowest ping at around 120 (usually around 200), which is clearly worse than average ping problems.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

51 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

 

that is actually pretty bad, i hope klei make something about it

now i feel bad for saying that stand still wanst a big deal...

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

I witnessed the same pattern in those cases: all team has to make a choice - either everyone stand still ready to fight and watch Wolfgang lifting weights (but Wolf player is not left out), or team starts fight without him (for example, when it can't wait like shadow pieces).

I ran into this one too.  One of my friends who hadn't played Wolfgang before the rework decided to pick it up - and when we all went to dfly and were ready to start, he had to lift weights to get mighty and it was all of us just standing there waiting, while he was using stone dumbbell.  He had a bit of mighty from using gym still, but it took a long time to top off.  Seeing us all waiting I think he didn't pump all the way b/c he ended up losing mighty during fight (probably not full hunger contributed.)  In the time it took him to do this we'd probably have mostly finished dfly if we started without him, but as a group we always fight these things together so we all sat around and wasted extra time.

Its what I've been saying all along - you stand still so long your 2x damage is made worthless.  I don't see the use case for new Wolfgang at all - anything he can do can be done better by just picking a different character.  I think its obvious Klei doesn't care and isn't coming back to him.  sry 'gang :\ 

[HowlVoid]

I do wonder what we can even do for Wolfgang at this point.

Klei seems to have moved on... A lot of the people that we're in favor of the rework have moved on to their usual pick and will never realize the long term effect the rework will have on him.

People with foresight came up with ideas but Klei ignored them all. 

The fact that the reason was "we made Wolfgang worse so everyone else can be better" is so bad I still can't wrap my head around it (especially when Wendy and Wanda exist. Please don't turn this into a Wanda OP thread). 

What can we do when Klei is notorious for never looking back...

[Yuuko]

4 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

What can we do when Klei is notorious for never looking back...

They reacted to feedback on Wendy pretty quick, I was surprised they just moved on here :\ 

What can we do?  idk, how long was Willow without fire immunity? -_- depressing.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

maybe wilson wont be refreshed but wolfgang xD

[abrocator]

Is it too late though?  It’s not that long since the Christmas/New Year break.  I am willing to keep up the lobbying.

[HowlVoid]

8 minutes ago, abrocator said:

Is it too late though?  It’s not that long since the Christmas/New Year break.  I am willing to keep up the lobbying.

Well the biggest hurdle is opposition from the devs themselves. 

Zarklord thinks this is best for Wolfgang... If we want to change their mind maybe someone can make a compilation of teams waiting around before a boss battle.

Maybe a comparison with a team of 5 fighting DF and Wolfgang joining late vs A team of 5 + a Wilson. Idk what the average team in multi is.

[Yuuko]

3 minutes ago, abrocator said:

Is it too late though?  It’s not that long since the Christmas/New Year break.  I am willing to keep up the lobbying.

tbh zark's harsh words made me lose hope before the holiday break started.  I get the feeling he just wanted Wolfgang nerfed and didn't care anything else about him, which is pretty much what we got :\ so I think they have a prejudice against this character, and an ego about their position, which prevents them from budging on their decisions even when feedback is level headed, considerate of a need to remove speed, and utilizes assets they developed already.

[Dextops]

10 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

They reacted to feedback on Wendy pretty quick, I was surprised they just moved on here :\ 

What can we do?  idk, how long was Willow without fire immunity? -_- depressing.

could be because wendy is a lot more popular character and making her not liked by the majority would do a lot of bad

[MondayNight]

10 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

They reacted to feedback on Wendy pretty quick, I was surprised they just moved on here :\

To be fair, server pickings-wise, Wendy (and Wigfrid) always were, are and I reckon will remain popular - always 1st (and 2nd place). Stands to reason KLei would listen when overwhelming majority complains. By contrast, Wolf was at-best in middle of the picking list (before his rework he felt at upper-bottom, don't remember what place exactly, but around Walter's and Winona's), hence not many complained (not the Wendy numbers for sure), so why his rework remained unchanged. Also of course is and always will be about Ego. Walking back a decision means admitting error to some degree - how many are willing to do that, especially from an dev/artist/entertainer pov proud of their work?!

[Cloakingsumo198]

2 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

I also saw Wolfgangs trying to help me to move statues (understandable, since it's one of their perks), but they ended up leaving because my beefalo was much better

 

25 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I think its obvious Klei doesn't care and isn't coming back to him.  sry 'gang :\ 

 

22 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Klei seems to have moved on...

 

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

stand still wanst a big deal...

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

To be fair, server pickings-wise, Wendy (and Wigfrid) always were, are and I reckon will remain popular - always 1st (and 2nd place). Stands to reason KLei would listen when overwhelming majority complains. By contrast, Wolf was at-best in middle of the picking list (before his rework he felt at upper-bottom, don't remember what place exactly, but around Walter's and Winona's), hence not many complained (not the Wendy numbers for sure), so why his rework remained unchanged. Also of course is and always will be about Ego. Walking back a decision means admitting error to some degree - how many are willing to do that, especially from an dev/artist/entertainer pov proud of their work?!

Yeah - Wendy is a beloved character, not only to the masses - but I imagine to the devs as well.  The speed at which they came back with a wholly different version of Wendy's refresh, including new animations, made me suspect they had both versions mostly made, and decided to go with one over the other - the dev team may have been split with this, and went with the more costly / less powerful version rather than the all-out power fantasy version first - but after feedback simply touched up and swapped the alternate version they had, but didn't release.

That's my theory at least.

I wonder what the stats are character choice have been since Wanda and Wolfgang's reworks though?  How did we get these stats?  Was there an api we could hit to always get this information, or was it some info dump Klei released?

Anyway - as far as ego, this is the part that disappoints me the most.  When I dev things I definitely do my best, but I greatly value feedback even if it comes as strong criticism because it is a chance for me to do even better.  I work in automations, not creative stuff so maybe there is a difference - but if I crafted an elegant piece of code and someone showed me that it was either done better another way, or didn't need to be done to accomplish the task, I'd happily ditch it in favor of a better final product.