I hand an epiphany, maybe I sound dumb idk

[HowlVoid]

2 minutes ago, Milordo said:

I came back to this post and see it reached 11 pages. I briefly look what you're talking and it's already "Wanda > Wolfgang"  "Wanda OP" "Wolfgang is dead" so i decided to close it.

At this point all of this is becoming stagnant, especially seeing people who clearly never played Wanda but only watch their favourite streamers doing no hit with her. 

?

Wanda is the only other character I've been playing besides Wormwood.

(Well besides trying out new Wolfgang)

[Milordo]

1 minute ago, HowlVoid said:

?

Wanda is the only other character I've been playing besides Wormwood.

(Well besides trying out new Wolfgang)

HowlVoid my post wasn't referring to you.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

55 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Ironic of you to say that when Wolfgang drains sanity and has a hard time keeping it up (especially for Noobs) where as Wendy can provide that Wolfgang with Sanity from the Sisturn, as well as infinite Top Hats with her mass silk gathering skillz. Wendy can also leave Vigor Mortis potions lying around that dead ghost players can haunt to speed up their movement speed to get back to touchstone or florid portal faster, if that Wendy isn’t around to revive them.

wolfg has x2 damage, having more sanity drain means more NF for thr team, also he doesnt have as much sanity drain when is near other players, befriended mobs or critter

sistrum is a structure thing useful for players with very little experience (outside of making abi get level 3 faster) There are many ways to recover sanity faster than being afk for 20 minutes (and you need to pick 4 petals that might be far away if you base in certain biomes), in that time you can recover the sanity of a whole team with things like cactus and green mushrooms

infinity top hats? wolf one shots spiders and has a better time dealing with spideequeens so he can farm silk for underwhelming hats, not as fast as her but isn't neccesary neither

55 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wendy can also leave Vigor Mortis potions lying around that dead ghost players can haunt to speed up their movement speed to get back to touchstone or florid portal faster, if that Wendy isn’t around to revive them

only useful in pubs and even there is niche

55 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Moving a boat faster as Wolfgang is Meh also.. he should be able to do it in Normal OR Mighty form.

is a good perk, way less "meh" than farming top hats slightly faster or grinding mourning glories to help death players

normal form shouldn't has strong man perks

55 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wigfrids Stagecrafting scrolls are Meh.. Some have use, others not so much..

??? so?

i dont get you comment, honestly. Nothing you said contradicts what i said. Wendy only has very niche (useless...) and for very noobs perks outside of combat

 

[Cloakingsumo198]

2 hours ago, Milordo said:

HowlVoid my post wasn't referring to you.

You might want to read more into the entire forums before brushing off the people in it.

I saw alot of people trash the wigfrid and wendy rework cause they didn't add much to their gameplay mostly just improved upon what was there. Now that I think about this rework response doesn't feel much different except with the nerfs on top of it all.

Wigfrid and Wendy though their perks are always active, Abigail can always come back, and wigfrid must fight to eat there is no maintenance involved for those perks it's not entirely similar so the complaints aren't either.

I hope they make Wolfgang a character other characters wanna stick around with or atleast make his changes allow him to be more mobile. His 2x damage at mighty makes him the person others run to when in danger, if he could haul at normal speed he could follow other people around with the marble pieces on his back early game. Running in with 95% protection lets him take front charge and take the hits incase of danger.  He is a good front liner for the team, a source of strength while mighty, a liability at wimp.

[Milordo]

2 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

You might want to read more into the entire forums before brushing off the people in it.

I saw alot of people trash the wigfrid and wendy rework cause they didn't add much to their gameplay mostly just improved upon what was there. Now that I think about this rework response doesn't feel much different except with the nerfs on top of it all.

Wigfrid and Wendy though their perks are always active, Abigail can always come back, and wigfrid must fight to eat there is no maintenance involved for those perks it's not entirely similar so the complaints aren't either.

I hope they make Wolfgang a character other characters wanna stick around with or atleast make his changes allow him to be more mobile. His 2x damage at mighty makes him the person others run to when in danger, if he could haul at normal speed he could follow other people around with the marble pieces on his back early game. Running in with 95% protection lets him take front charge and take the hits incase of danger.  He is a good front liner for the team, a source of strength while mighty, a liability at wimp.

I'm not brushing off nobody, just saying what i saw when re-joined this post, since it reached 11 pages. 

I read fast the last pages and saw again the things about Wanda and say what it's true. If people are trashing Wigfrid and Wendy reworks, it means this post is burning more than my fireplace. I'm happy to have skipped all those pages.

[HowlVoid]

11 minutes ago, Milordo said:

I'm not brushing off nobody, just saying what i saw when re-joined this post, since it reached 11 pages. 

I read fast the last pages and saw again the things about Wanda and say what it's true. If people are trashing Wigfrid and Wendy reworks, it means this post is burning more than my fireplace. I'm happy to have skipped all those pages.

People are trashing those reworks? 

Pretty sure people are praising them in comparison to Wolfgang's rework. 

[Milordo]

2 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

People are trashing those reworks? 

Pretty sure people are praising them in comparison to Wolfgang's rework. 

Cloakingsumo said it.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 hours ago, Milordo said:

I'm not brushing off nobody, just saying what i saw when re-joined this post, since it reached 11 pages. 

I read fast the last pages and saw again the things about Wanda and say what it's true. If people are trashing Wigfrid and Wendy reworks, it means this post is burning more than my fireplace. I'm happy to have skipped all those pages.

????? im pointing how curious is people complaining about how "bad is wolfgang because is only useful in fights" when there are characters that are more focused on combat than wolfgang. In any comment anybody said that wigfrid's or Wendy's refreshes were bad, actually i think they were pretty good (i still feel weird that wigfrids perks arent atached to the inspiration bar tho)

[Milordo]

3 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

????? im pointing how curious is people complaining about how "bad is wolfgang because is only useful in fights" when there are characters that are more focused on combat than wolfgang. In any comment anybody said that wigfrid's or Wendy's refreshes were bad, actually i think they were pretty good (i still feel weird that wigfrids perks arent atached to the inspiration bar tho)

i don't get if you're scolding me or what. I was just replying to Cloakingsumo. 

Still, i'm sorry but calling wendy and wigrifid refresh bad is like, trolling or just plain stupid. I want to remember that Wendy got saved thanks to the rework.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 minutes ago, Milordo said:

i don't get if you're scolding me or what. I was just replying to Cloakingsumo. 

Still, i'm sorry but calling wendy and wigrifid refresh bad is like, trolling or just plain stupid. I want to remember that Wendy got saved thanks to the rework.

no, i just though you miss understood me since i didnt read any other comment about them. (i didnt read that user's comment)

[Cloakingsumo198]

I think you guys are just misunderstanding me. I only meant that when the Wendy and wigfrid reworks came out they were criticized for the same reasons. So just like how wolf is except with his overall role change backlash on top of it.

Wolfgang as a combat character is 2x damage and can wear marble armor.

Wanda has her alarming clock and backstep watch, varying degrees of less sanity loss with night armor and increased damage depending on age.

Wendy has Abigail a constant AoE follower with 3 levels,she can sorta control her easy farming, she gives a tiny damage boost to everyone around and there's multiple potions of varying usefulness

Wigfrid has cheap armor to share, innate damage resistance, sanity and life steal, and her battle ballads that work for everybody around her.

This isn't including what Wanda can do for her team with her other watches either

They all have different roles and will play differently, Wanda and wigfrid have more team oriented skills fact.

You two are so tunnel visioned on one part of a character and just rebounding off of each other only..

[ArubaroBeefalo]

50 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

You two are so tunnel visioned on one part of a character and just rebounding off of each other only..

 

50 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Wolfgang as a combat character is 2x damage and can wear marble armor.

doest mention working speed, rowing speed and carrying statues (blabla beefalo but the truth is that is so good for decorating the base)

[Cloakingsumo198]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

 

doest mention working speed, rowing speed and carrying statues (blabla beefalo but the truth is that is so good for decorating the base)

You changed the goal post first it was combat now it's decorating bases a novelty

[JustExo]

I keep getting this sense of superiority from people saying things like "well I've played X in Y way, and though I don't have anything to back up the idea, I can tell that you clearly haven't,"

bruh everybody has access to the same game and everybody has their own ways to play the game. There isn't something super secret to the way most people play the game, assume that whoever you're talking to know what they're talking about just as much as you do. 

Dont assume that just because somebody has a differing opinion than you do, that they're somehow not as informed, or as smart as you or anything, its pretentious as hell and just makes people think less of whatever follows statements like it.

[Toroic]

20 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

He is comparing Wanda with Wolfgang, they compete for the same roll which is a damage dealing character (he plays as Wanda).

I don't think you can simply categorize Wanda/Wigfrid/Wolfgang/Wendy as "combat characters" as they all bring different things to the table.

20 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

There are multiple characters that can solve problems via brute force: Wanda, Webber, Wigfrid, Warly, and Wendy. Wolfgang isn't special in that regard. All of these characters also happen to excel and outpace Wolfgang in one other category (or multiple).

Wanda: Can cut down on resources and time via her infinite weapon and teleporting.

Warly: He can exponentially improve the teams efficiency via his spices.

Wendy: Is the best aoe damage dealer, has a small sanity station for new players, and Abigail can protect the group from hordes.

Webber: His damage outpaces Wolfgangs via army and cuts down on healing resources.

Wigfrid: Offers great utility to the whole team in battle that exponentially grows as more player join the battle.

Wolfgang isn't just hurting in speedrunning, he is hurting in general play too. There is no incentive to play Wolfgang, even in a group as you're not actually contributing to the group itself. All he has to offer is damage which is generally not needed in multiplayer. 

He solves the least problems via brute force compared to what other characters can actually contribute. 

Wanda is the opposite of brute force solutions, because her whole kit is about mobility and avoiding taking damage as she has to choose between durability and damage.  She's very much about having planned ahead so she can teleport and save time for herself and her team.

Warly: again, the opposite of brute force solutions because he has a large variety of different dishes to solve different problems.  He's a food mage who shines the most when supporting others.

Wendy: She uses brute force the same way a necromancer does: indirectly.  Her damage only competes when she has both Abi and a Beefalo to do the heavy lifting for her.  This is both thematically and practically distinct from Wolfgang's approach.

Webber: Saying his damage outpaces Wolfgang's is disingenuous for two reasons.  One, anyone can have an arbitrary number of minions.  Two, there are several fights where Webber's spiders do very poorly due to the bosses having aoe or fear mechanics.

Wigfrid: She is very direct in most of her perks, but she has a clear defensive and team focus compared to Wolf having an offensive and individual focus.

I'm not convinced Wolfgang is actually hurting in speedrunning as Jakeyosaurus broke his vanilla Wolfgang record with reworked wolfgang on a full boss clear.  When it comes to a single boss clear, I'd actually prefer that Wolfgang wasn't the obvious choice for any speedrun.

20 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

This shines in solo mid game but has a steep drop off point. 

In multiplayer it is nothing but a novelty and not a good one 

In multiplayer character choice isn't very important because bosses are relatively weak, and this gets exacerbated when you start considering synergies.  You pick Wolfgang on a small team where his damage boost matters, and when with the Warly both Wolf's gathering and fighting get dramatically improved as he has 1.5x tool use for 3x work effectiveness.  That's 2 hits per boulder and 5 chops per large tree.

The work effectiveness retains value in long-running worlds where you are resetting the ruins because you'll always be able to harvest the resources faster with Wolf and you can't use bearger/deerclops for those like you can on the surface.

20 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

He has actually become harder to kill bosses with and it is more obvious in solo play. Wolfgang has to manage his inventory in battle and make openings to use his dumbbells for longer fights. This is a bigger nightmare on console than it is on pc, but that's ok because we don't exist.

Harder to kill bosses with than what?  Than before, sure.  Harder than other people?  Strongly disagree.

Everyone has to manage their inventory in combat, and it's not hard to manage a few gembell pumps during combat for the longer fights.

Oof on being a console player though.  A lot is different and not in a good way.

20 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Wolfgang is tied to the gym because the dumbbells don't cut it, Wolfgang has to spend time in Wimpy because the meter is a waste of time to upkeep for any general purpose outside of combat early game (and which has only penalties if you decide to ignore it), so when does Wolfgang win Toro? Only when his tools finally catch up in the mid game? 

I'm skipping over some of your post because I don't have the patience to argue every little detail.

Disagree on the dumbells not cutting it.  Gembell lets you sustain mighty form for 12 days at a cost of 15 seconds per day.  Gyms cost 5 seconds per day.  This is not a significant amount of time, and truly trivial if you're sailing anywhere or waiting for anything.

Yes, his early game it's more efficient to be mighty.  He catches up in the midgame and stays strong though the endgame.

20 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Except he doesn't. You seem to contradict yourself on this point very often.

You make this claim while at the same time also claiming that his meter makes it easier to maintain. 

I hope you'll save me the trouble of looking for your comments and quoting you everytime you've said that his damage is now more reliable and that gyms make acquiring this power just 10 seconds of working out. Idk, but that sounds like free stats to me. Free stats that aren't hard to get, just boring and inefficient (time wise).

There is no contradiction.  There is more effort required to become mighty with reworked wolfgang, and once you're set up it's less effort to maintain than before.  Purple gems aren't hard to come by, gembells last a long time, and you can build gyms in different places on long term worlds if you feel you don't get enough purple gems.

His damage is more reliable now, which is why the shield of terror which was a pretty bad weapon for him due to breakpoints has now become a fantastic weapon especially on any trip long enough that you'd need a gembell.

Also, a fully upgraded gym takes 5 seconds per day to maintain mighty form, not 10.

20 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

That's fine if you enjoy it, but don't you think we can strive for a Wolfgang that more people enjoy? 

I don't mean by giving him his speed back either, there are a few points in his refresh that are lacking. You know what they are, you've mentioned them yourself, I think you just need to stop looking at these as minor inconveniences, "wastes of time", or necessary obstacles to reach the meat of his kit. Because no other character has to waste so much time for such little returns (except maybe Wes, but he deserves it). 

Klei can address them to smooth out his early game, provide a little more meat for the mid and early game, and give some incentive to stick around for the end game. There is no reason why Wolfgang can't still fit the mighty theme you're enjoying, make him more mechanically stable, and increase the enjoyment factor without taking that theme away. 

If you've read my posts I am all for continuing to tweak Wolfgang to make him more fun and useful outside of combat (and I especially want the rowing to be fixed as being able to zoom with a driftwood oar/malba beak is both fun and useful)

I strongly believe that you're grossly exaggerating both how long it takes for wolfgang to reach the meat of his kit, the effort involved to maintain mighty, and saying he gets "such little returns" is absolutely absurd. 

Wolfgang was a character that was mechanically strong and after you figured out how to manage food, incredibly easy and one dimensional to play.  Wolfgang is still mechanically strong, less one dimensional, and requires time spent managing your mightiness instead of simply producing more food. 

Your argument against time and tedium is fair, but like the comparisons to Wanda, the rework didn't change things there fundamentally.

19 hours ago, Lex the Grim said:

I like you @HowlVoid. You speak the true-true.

 

I understand @Toros has been playing a similar playstyle for a while with his personal mod, but I also remember that his mod had way more actual neat tweaks and changes that made Wolf more fun to play.

Basically, from what I can gather and what I feel myself, removing parts of Wolfgang's kit and changing his might cycle to introduce tedium and extra time and resources spent is not enough for a refresh. Whether Klei like it or not, they've set a really high standard with most recent reworks that introduce fun and positive additions to characters that have been refreshed.

Wolfgang has not received nearly as much love and care. Most of the changes just introduce an extra time and resource grind that doesn't pay back enough dividends to make them a worthwhile change. He needs much more love and care put into him, equal to what other characters have received, or there will forever be a bad taste in a great many people's mouths.

I don't think that's an unreasonable assertion.

 

Also Merry Christmas everyone!

My mod had a lot of similar features mechanically with the biggest changes being that you could still become and maintain mighty form with food (but with 2x capped drain and you still had linear damage multiplier) and the "carry heavy things" and "row faster" perks were both stronger than reworked Wolf.  We'll see if those change, but with how easy it is to tame a beef and how much faster a rider beefalo is than Wolf with a cane (my mod lets you wear heavy things like a backpack and still use your hands) not much changes there in practice.

I disagree on the time or resource grind being increased, and long term believe it has actually decreased.  Instead of producing 3x the food because the speed boost was always useful (but not always actually saving you time in reality) you hop on a gym or use a gembell for a few seconds per day instead.  Maximum hunger drain with a gym is 1.33x normal.

If you compare Wolf's rework to Wigfrid's, there's a lot of commonalities there.  Wigfrid didn't gain any out of combat perks and most of the time she can't eat veggies and her only benefit to the team is high durability helmets that don't use pigskin.  She didn't fundamentally change as much as Wolf did because she didn't need to, and my understanding is that Wigfrid's rework was well-recieved.

The idea that he didn't receive love and care confuses me because he had a very good short and there was a lot of effort put into the rework.  Webber continued to get tweaks for a few weeks after release, and I imagine Wolf will probably get at least one more to iron out bugs and get some more buffs.  If you remember, he wasn't released with any work speed increase while mighty.

There's been enormous amounts of negativity around this rework and removing the speed boost is a big nerf and the buffs he's gotten in other areas don't fully compensate for that.  Klei was clear their intention was to nerf, and if you compare pre-rework Wolfgang to other characters it's clear his mechanical power for moderate-high skill levels was very high.  Wickerbottom already had nerfs to her books with RWYS, and if they pull WX's power in Wanda's is likely to follow with a similar uproar.

People compare him to Wanda largely because of them having similar damage output, but Wolfgang has no dependence on a particular weapon and gets his damage without sacrificing his above average durability.  As new content is added (such as the eye mask and the shield of terror) Wolfgang stands to benefit the most and the shield of terror synergy is much better now than pre-rework.

The gloom and doom surrounding this rework I believe is very much an overreaction.  Klei is likely to do another patch after the holidays with bugfixes and buffs and Wolfgang has really not been nerfed outside of the first days in a world with a standard strategy and some specific speedrun setups where his speed was necessary.

I'm not saying he's perfect now, but I am saying he's still good, spends the same or in many cases less time maintaining mighty form than before, is likely to get more buffs and fixes after the holidays, and there is a lot more potential for fun and depth in this design vs his previous one.

[Mike23Ua]

Wolfgang isn’t as bad on console as HowlVoid makes him out to be- the only thing highly annoying about it is Left on the D-pad should auto-Equip and Auto start lifting weights. (It’s currently unbound to any action for Dumbell unless in Hand Slot)

One thing that strikes me as most odd about the Whole rework is that there’s a tap on the d-pad to STOP Lifting.. this just seems completely unnecessary because simply moving, eating, changing weapons at all Etc.. instantly stops lifting. 
So why the frick is there a button specifically to STOP Lifting?

If I were a gambling man: I’d bet 100$ that it’s there for a future patch where you can lift weights while still also walking.

But: My luck is bad & I don’t have 100$ to spare.

[HowlVoid]

23 hours ago, Toros said:

I don't think you can simply categorize Wanda/Wigfrid/Wolfgang/Wendy as "combat characters" as they all bring different things to the table.

That's exactly it, they're not just combat characters are they? Except Wolfgang, not sure why you added him in there. You've said yourself that he is a combat character, the "general" combat character if I remember your words correctly. Wolfgang is the only one adding very little outside of combat, that the problem.

Quote

Wanda is the opposite of brute force solutions, because her whole kit is about mobility and avoiding taking damage as she has to choose between durability and damage.  She's very much about having planned ahead so she can teleport and save time for herself and her team.

Warly: again, the opposite of brute force solutions because he has a large variety of different dishes to solve different problems.  He's a food mage who shines the most when supporting others.

Wendy: She uses brute force the same way a necromancer does: indirectly.  Her damage only competes when she has both Abi and a Beefalo to do the heavy lifting for her.  This is both thematically and practically distinct from Wolfgang's approach.

Webber: Saying his damage outpaces Wolfgang's is disingenuous for two reasons.  One, anyone can have an arbitrary number of minions.  Two, there are several fights where Webber's spiders do very poorly due to the bosses having aoe or fear mechanics.

Wigfrid: She is very direct in most of her perks, but she has a clear defensive and team focus compared to Wolf having an offensive and individual focus.

You categorize brute force how ever you want, still it comes out exactly the same way, no matter in which form it is delivered.

As I stated they have the brute force doesn't matter if it's, indirect, via spice, minions, or  while trying to avoid damage, they tend to have one other specialization (or multiple) which Wolfgang mostly lacks. 

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I'm not convinced Wolfgang is actually hurting in speedrunning as Jakeyosaurus broke his vanilla Wolfgang record with reworked wolfgang on a full boss clear.  When it comes to a single boss clear, I'd actually prefer that Wolfgang wasn't the obvious choice for any speedrun.

I don't think you understood what I said given this comment, so I will reiterate.

When it comes to speedrunning, just because the best character to do that with is nerfed, does not mean other characters will become more clear choices.

Wolfgang or another character will become the defining choice for speedrunning because that is how that works. Wormwood won't suddenly become a speedrunning character for the best times if he simply doesn't fit the bill.

My second point being who cares if Wolfgang is the best at speedrunning, only a Speedrunners (a small percent of the community) will care about that. Wolfgang being the defining choice, or continuing to be the defining choice, shouldn't matter in the slightest when it comes to balancing a character. Just like pvp should never be a factor and Maxwell having to drop his book to craft or Willow losing her fire immunity because of pvp were horrible decisions. 

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In multiplayer character choice isn't very important because bosses are relatively weak, and this gets exacerbated when you start considering synergies.  You pick Wolfgang on a small team where his damage boost matters, and when with the Warly both Wolf's gathering and fighting get dramatically improved as he has 1.5x tool use for 3x work effectiveness.  That's 2 hits per boulder and 5 chops per large tree.

Firstly, you are wrong about character choice not being important as many characters can feed entire servers on their own, like Wendy and Wormwood, that help that can't be easily replaced. It's is damage and only damage that has worse and worse returns as more characters join for battle. Just as you say character choice is not very important for battle but battle isn't everything this game is about. 90% of the game is survival and boss battles are not even a mandatory part of DST where even invading bosses can be abandoned somewhere where they will despawn. Most public serves don't even make it past autumn.

Secondly, the more you talk about Wolfgang fitting in, the more specific you need to become with the scenarios in order for him to matter. A small team, a Warly present, a server to get past the early game, I hope you realize that if you need specific nich scenarios and not general ones for Wolfgang to be great, you can make an argument for literally anything. I can make an argument for Wilson being a great combat character too if I make a list of niche scenarios. 

Every character refreshed thus far has been mostly independent save for maybe 1 or 2 exceptions. Warly doesn't need Wolfgang, just like Maxwell doesn't need Warly for him to be an absolute beast at resource gathering that no one can match. Maxwell can carry on his shoulders all of the gathering for a whole server. 

It's also not a compelling case when it's only one specific synergy in a cast of 18 characters. Is Wolfgang going to happen upon a Warly in every server? Not to mention Warly would be more sane to give his honey crystals to a Woodie or Maxwell, but not Wolfgang if the other two are present. Wolfgang also having to go back to base to use the gym or take time to his dumbbells would also make him a poor choice for the honey crystals. Wolfgang's gathering perk is mostly to offset the time loss for gathering his own resources for his crafts. Warly can even give it to Wendy who can multitask a horde of spiders and chopping wood, the list goes on and on. 

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The work effectiveness retains value in long-running worlds where you are resetting the ruins because you'll always be able to harvest the resources faster with Wolf and you can't use bearger/deerclops for those like you can on the surface.

Again in a server with other choices, he is the worst pick.

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Harder to kill bosses with than what?  Than before, sure.  Harder than other people?  Strongly disagree.

He has become harder to kill bosses with than before. Glad we agree on that.

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Everyone has to manage their inventory in combat, and it's not hard to manage a few gembell pumps during combat for the longer fights.

Not to this degree, it's very noticeable in solo play.

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Oof on being a console player though.  A lot is different and not in a good way.

I'm skipping over some of your post because I don't have the patience to argue every little detail.

Disagree on the dumbells not cutting it.  Gembell lets you sustain mighty form for 12 days at a cost of 15 seconds per day.  Gyms cost 5 seconds per day.  This is not a significant amount of time, and truly trivial if you're sailing anywhere or waiting for anything.

Then why have you made claims that Wolfgang needs a network of gyms if the dumbbells are sufficient? 

Why need to spend all early game wimpy if the dumbbells are sufficient? 

Also 15 seconds of being stationary every day is absolutely noticeable...? How is it not significant? A whole 15 seconds, every day???

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Yes, his early game it's more efficient to be mighty. 

I think you mean wimpy.

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He catches up in the midgame and stays strong though the endgame.

It doesn't have to be that way. 

It's not just the most efficient way it's the only efficient way.

That makes him way more 1 dimensional than you want to admit. 

Arguments can be made for other characters on how they should efficiently play given their perks. Wolfgang though? He doesn't really have a choice.

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There is no contradiction.  There is more effort required to become mighty with reworked wolfgang, and once you're set up it's less effort to maintain than before.  Purple gems aren't hard to come by, gembells last a long time, and you can build gyms in different places on long term worlds if you feel you don't get enough purple gems.

The contradiction is that you have claimed he no longer "gets free stats", but then also claim that being mighty is better than ever. How is better than "free stats" (pre-rework) not just more "free stats"? 

Which one is it?

Again less efficient work does not equal more effort. You are confusing the two. 

5 or 15 seconds of working out is not more effort, stopping in the middle of battle to work out is not more effort, spending all of early game wimpy is not more effort, it's just tedious. 

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His damage is more reliable now, which is why the shield of terror which was a pretty bad weapon for him due to breakpoints has now become a fantastic weapon especially on any trip long enough that you'd need a gembell.

Also, a fully upgraded gym takes 5 seconds per day to maintain mighty form, not 10.

If you've read my posts I am all for continuing to tweak Wolfgang to make him more fun and useful outside of combat (and I especially want the rowing to be fixed as being able to zoom with a driftwood oar/malba beak is both fun and useful)

Then we are in agreement. That is what most of us want, then I don't see the point in this argument. 

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I strongly believe that you're grossly exaggerating both how long it takes for wolfgang to reach the meat of his kit,

The kit that is non-existent early game, which is an issue he alone has? No, I don't think I'm exaggerating. 

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the effort involved to maintain mighty, and saying he gets "such little returns" is absolutely absurd. 

Damage has little returns in multiplayer, it's true. Above in you're reply you have also stated that characters don't matter in combat, given that to be the case... Yes, he gets bad returns.

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Wolfgang was a character that was mechanically strong and after you figured out how to manage food, incredibly easy and one dimensional to play.

He is still one dimensional. How often can you play Wolfgang differently? 

I have found that I don't need to rush the ruins as Wormwood and can instead rush night armor (he has synergy with it) instead of crowns.

Tell me, Toro, how differently can you play Wolfgang's early game? How differently can you go about using the gyms? How differently can you go about using all of his dumbbells? Or is the gembell the only real choice? 

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Wolfgang is still mechanically strong, less one dimensional, and requires time spent managing your mightiness instead of simply producing more food. 

More time spent managing your mightyness... That's that "half-full" mentality again, how does that even sound appealing to anyone?

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Your argument against time and tedium is fair, but like the comparisons to Wanda, the rework didn't change things there fundamentally.

And that's we want, less tedium and less wasted time, that's really it. 

At this point most of us are just giving feedback on the refresh, we can't really help Klei get ideas if we don't share them in the first place. Some people may sound a little salty but it's because they're passionate about Wolfgang. Klei is a great company I'm sure they can see past the salt and get to the good feedback. 

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23 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wolfgang isn’t as bad on console as HowlVoid makes him out to be- the only thing highly annoying about it is Left on the D-pad should auto-Equip and Auto start lifting weights. (It’s currently unbound to any action for Dumbell unless in Hand Slot)

One thing that strikes me as most odd about the Whole rework is that there’s a tap on the d-pad to STOP Lifting.. this just seems completely unnecessary because simply moving, eating, changing weapons at all Etc.. instantly stops lifting. 
So why the frick is there a button specifically to STOP Lifting?

If I were a gambling man: I’d bet 100$ that it’s there for a future patch where you can lift weights while still also walking.

But: My luck is bad & I don’t have 100$ to spare.

You complain about the differences between PC an console all the time. You're the last person I want to hear from about "not as bad I make it out to be". 

You have complained at least 3 times from what I have personally seen about having to move all the way to his hand to lift. That is as "bad" as I have made it out to be, and no more. 

[Porkus]

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