I hand an epiphany, maybe I sound dumb idk

[Porkus]

6 hours ago, Myphanos said:

>human nature dictates that it is self-centered, therefore no action made by man is without an intrinsically transactional motive.

>spiritualism and altruism is almost always overpowered by greed in the common individual.

>introspective is only a characteristic of the enlightened individual and unlocked only by those who recognize fallibility as ultimately intrinsic to the existence of consciousness and being.

Understand these three basic concepts to their ultimate nomenclature, and you will understand the truth behind why unfairness exists within a collective consciousness.

 

 

That's very true, detaching yourself from those rules is incredibly hard. You may be able to act as if you have completed that, but in reality you pre-meditate your decisions, while your mind's first thought is selfish

[Lex the Grim]

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i see this suggestion repeated in other topics and i dont like it

the same way young and middle age wanda shouldnt be as strong as they ara, wolfgang shouldnt be rewarded for not maintaining mighty form

There is a vast difference between Wanda and Wolfgang atm in terms of fun and utility, and comparing these suggestions with Wanda is... well it's apples and oranges.

That's like saying Wendy shouldn't get Abigail until she's completed X number or Pipspook quests or something, or Wigfrid all of her abilities until she's killed X amount of enemies. I really don't understand your reasoning for it.

This is one of the levers that can be moved to give Wolfgang perks in other areas, and saying just flat out no because "He has to earn it" is honestly kind of arbitrary and frustrating. Most of the characters in the game do not need to do so.

I don't get it.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, JustExo said:

Age is something that you passively get as Wanda, and even then there are downsides to being old that are present with her, as well as upsides with the younger ages. Overall there's still reason for you to be young, but more of an incentive in certain scenarios to be old

Wolfgang however has no incentive to be anything but mighty, which he has to actively work for in the form of working out which is already seen by a lot of players as tedious. 

wanda can control her age, wolgang can control his meter

adding perks to his other forms will make him more tedious

1 hour ago, JustExo said:

Age is something that you passively get as Wanda, and even then there are downsides to being old that are present with her, as well as upsides with the younger ages. Overall there's still reason for you to be young, but more of an incentive in certain scenarios to be old

Wolfgang however has no incentive to be anything but mighty, which he has to actively work for in the form of working out which is already seen by a lot of players as tedious. 

wanda can control her age, wolgang can control his meter

adding perks to his other forms will make him more tedious

1 hour ago, JustExo said:

Age is something that you passively get as Wanda, and even then there are downsides to being old that are present with her, as well as upsides with the younger ages. Overall there's still reason for you to be young, but more of an incentive in certain scenarios to be old

Wolfgang however has no incentive to be anything but mighty, which he has to actively work for in the form of working out which is already seen by a lot of players as tedious. 

wanda can control her age, wolgang can control his meter

adding perks to his other forms will make him more tedious

[minespatch]

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, Lex the Grim said:

There is a vast difference between Wanda and Wolfgang atm in terms of fun and utility, and comparing these suggestions with Wanda is... well it's apples and oranges.

That's like saying Wendy shouldn't get Abigail until she's completed X number or Pipspook quests or something, or Wigfrid all of her abilities until she's killed X amount of enemies. I really don't understand your reasoning for it.

This is one of the levers that can be moved to give Wolfgang perks in other areas, and saying just flat out no because "He has to earn it" is honestly kind of arbitrary and frustrating. Most of the characters in the game do not need to do so.

I don't get it.

read my previous weird comment 

[Lex the Grim]

So they can control their meters? Every other character gets to control their unique perks, whether it's their items, or whether they're blooming, or their abilities are just on all the time.

The suggestions I made have literal tradeoffs: you can't be Mighty and speedy. You either move fast and hit like a wet noodle, or you move normal and get some decent perks and the big damage modifier. Or you're baseline, and your only perk is a damage buff equivalent to the other character who's focus is combat, except you don't get all the other cool stuff she gets, just slightly higher health and hunger stats.

How's that unbalanced?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

6 minutes ago, Lex the Grim said:

So they can control their meters? Every other character gets to control their unique perks, whether it's their items, or whether they're blooming, or their abilities are just on all the time.

The suggestions I made have literal tradeoffs: you can't be Mighty and speedy. You either move fast and hit like a wet noodle, or you move normal and get some decent perks and the big damage modifier. Or you're baseline, and your only perk is a damage buff equivalent to the other character who's focus is combat, except you don't get all the other cool stuff she gets, just slightly higher health and hunger stats.

How's that unbalanced?

who said it is unbalanced? i said is tedious and useless since why i would be wimpy for speed if later i will need to raise 100 damn mighty points? 99% of the time you play wimpy or normal is because you are in base where speed isnt as neccesary. Also how i get the speed if im mighty? how can i low my meter? do i need yo wait afk? 

the suggestion comes from "in paper looks cool", the reality is that it will be useless and tedious

also why a weak person is faster than a strong one? where did you see a nerd running faster than a sport man?

why he cant be mighty and speedy? because you say? i dont see why he cant

the suggestion doesnt have sense from a gameplay perspective neither sense in general

 

edit: with wanda has sense having different downsides depending her age because she can manipulate her age easily, wolfgang cant and klei wont waste resources reworking a refresh that already was a waste of time

[Lex the Grim]

Well if you don't eat for a while your Mightiness will go down pretty fast, for one thing.

As for the running faster with less muscle mass, it could tie in to his fear thing. While he's wimpy he feels his weakness and moves faster because he's scared. While it may not be necessarily how it works in the real world, thematically it fits.

You are right about gaining Mightiness quickly though, that is something very different and irritating. You can't just scarf down some potatoes in 3 seconds and go mighty, which might come down to the Dumbbell thing. Perhaps it should work like Wanda's clocks, with a cooldown and a big movement of the meter.

Still, like I said, the suggestions I made were throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks, but the principle is sound, at least in my opinion

11 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

why he cant be mighty and speedy? because you say? i dont see why he cant

Also, I didn't say this, Klei has. So I'm working with the parameters we've been given.

[ThymeSpirit]

I agree with people saying that Wolfgang's normal form needs some perks, like slightly increased damage (how much is another question), wearing heavy armor and backpacks without slowing down, and maybe faster chopping/mining same as in mighty form, but without faster durability loss on tools, which would incentivize using normal form for everyday use, while mighty is for fighting bosses. Wimpy form shouldn't get any perks though and should just stay as a punishment. Maybe retune dumbells again too.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

15 minutes ago, ThymeSpirit said:

I agree with people saying that Wolfgang's normal form needs some perks, like slightly increased damage (how much is another question), wearing heavy armor and backpacks without slowing down, and maybe faster chopping/mining same as in mighty form, but without faster durability loss on tools, which would incentivize using normal form for everyday use, while mighty is for fighting bosses. Wimpy form shouldn't get any perks though and should just stay as a punishment. Maybe retune dumbells again too.

so do you want to ruin the only things that make keeping mighty useful...

 

20 minutes ago, Lex the Grim said:

Well if you don't eat for a while your Mightiness will go down pretty fast, for one thing

but you top of your stomach so the mighty form last longer. After a fight you will need a lot of minutes to lower the meter because he doesnt have as much hunger drain as before. So by the time you might want the speed boost a new fight will start

 

22 minutes ago, Lex the Grim said:

As for the running faster with less muscle mass, it could tie in to his fear thing. While he's wimpy he feels his weakness and moves faster because he's scared. While it may not be necessarily how it works in the real world, thematically it fits

he still being a coward in mighty form so it will have little sense and, again, will be a non used perk for the reasons i already mentioned

[ThymeSpirit]

39 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

so do you want to ruin the only things that make keeping mighty useful...

Are you saying mighty form is only useful for harvesting wood and stone and wearing early game backpack?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

13 minutes ago, ThymeSpirit said:

Are you saying mighty form is only useful for harvesting wood and stone and wearing early game backpack?

no, why i would say that? but not having that perks makes pointless mighty form outside of boss fights

middle form is to dont have perks neither downsides, wimpy is just downsides as punish for not being prepared (which is kinda pointless due for how easy is to maintain normal form) and mighty is where the perks are compiled

i dont see the point of having different perks on each form with a bar that drops constanly but so slow and cant be easily maneable

the only way to """"""fix"""""" wolf is by making less """tedious""" to keep mighty or add more things to it (like 5% or 10% speed or whatever)

[Waynel]

9 hours ago, Myphanos said:

>human nature dictates that it is self-centered, therefore no action made by man is without an intrinsically transactional motive.

>spiritualism and altruism is almost always overpowered by greed in the common individual.

>introspective is only a characteristic of the enlightened individual and unlocked only by those who recognize fallibility as ultimately intrinsic to the existence of consciousness and being.

I'm a noisy brute by nature. It requires EFFORT to make a conscientious judgment. I curse ye, body of flesh !

 

11 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

But does removing his speed balance that? I doubt it… you can’t dodge as easy any more that’s true, But you can also wear armor and deal 2x damage the whole fight: Pretty sure you would actually finish the fights FASTER now.

 

11 hours ago, Third Porkus said:

Well Edgy Rick isn't even a good player, and here is that and more done by day 60 as Maxwell

Regarding Edgy Rick, well i've thrown him in my post for the memes (it was wholly satirical). Obviously you don't want to put Rick Don Giani and Spikyshield in the same bag. He wasn't a serious player. One could wonder if he actually ever defeated fw without using Wolfgang (no offense to people who are still struggling with raid bosses and prefer using wolfgang to defeat them, but Rick had thousands upon thousands of hours in dst and was very pompous).

 

Now I won’t get too overboard and claim he was the worst dst content creator. He was okay at the game. He was able to grasp the basics of it.
But in terms of skill, there is a gaping chasm between Rick and the likes of Don Giani, Spikyshield, the late Helicalpuma, Guille and so on.

 

As to the goal of my post: I wasn’t even arguing about whether new Wolfgang is “stronger or weaker”.
But I have this gut feeling that there’s an unconscious collective trauma surrounding the accursed and former dst player who went by the nick Edgy Rick.

This “Edgy Rick ptsd” comes with harmful side effects for the community and the future of dst.

As Rick was a dst personality well-known for being very toxic, they unknowingly fall into this vicious circle:

1.     Rick makes wild claim with his usual smug attitude, e.g. “Wolfgang is op. Other chars terrible. Just play Wolfgang”

2.     The people affected by the Rick syndrome will consider this view as the most accurate and most popular opinion (faulty logic here as Rick was proven wrong on many of his claims and its not like the majority of dst players subscribed to his ways) and will react in righteous (but misplaced) indignation, going out of their way to be tilting at windmills.

3.     Next thing you know, Wolfgang gets nerfed.. or at least the old Wolfgang playstyle is destroyed

 

Why was Edgy Rick even considered an authority in the first place ? Yes he made some provocative videos which allowed him to gain fame. Okay, he could successfully put on a show in front of the dst audience.

But is making clickbaity videos the criterion for considering whether a particular dst player deserves to have a big say in these matters ?

Do we even need such overlords ? Making your point in a forum thread with constructive arguments (occasionally accompanied by a video showcasing said strat/test) is sufficient.

 

I’m glad Rick left. New and creative content wouldn’t come from him anyway if he stayed.

[ThymeSpirit]

10 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

but not having that perks makes pointless mighty form outside of boss fights

Then you're right, I suggest making mighty form useless outside of boss fights. So you won't have to tedoiusly maintain it all the time.

11 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

middle form is to dont have perks neither downsides,

Isn't that exactly the problem? You have to maintain mighty because otherwise you're just Wilson. If normal form had more perks, it wouldn't be so boring.

18 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i dont see the point of having different perks on each form with a bar that drops constanly but so slow and cant be easily maneable

I only suggest perks for normal form, wimpy should be a punishment, and also you just said:

19 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

how easy is to maintain normal form

So I suggest a change that would make his gameplay "maintain normal form easily unless you're a complete noob, get some useful perks for everyday life - harvesting, carrying more inventory, slighly increased damage which helps with normal mobs, and only go mighty when you need to fight a boss". No need to be mighty all the time = no tedium. If maintaining normal is still too tedious, then decrease or even halt mightiness loss in this form (and in wimpy) if hunger is high enough. So just keep Wolfgang fed to stay in normal, only use gym/dumbells to prepare for a boss fight or when you're failing at the game.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

22 minutes ago, ThymeSpirit said:

Then you're right, I suggest making mighty form useless outside of boss fights. So you won't have to tedoiusly maintain it all the time.

Isn't that exactly the problem? You have to maintain mighty because otherwise you're just Wilson. If normal form had more perks, it wouldn't be so boring.

I only suggest perks for normal form, wimpy should be a punishment, and also you just said:

So I suggest a change that would make his gameplay "maintain normal form easily unless you're a complete noob, get some useful perks for everyday life - harvesting, carrying more inventory, slighly increased damage which helps with normal mobs, and only go mighty when you need to fight a boss". No need to be mighty all the time = no tedium. If maintaining normal is still too tedious, then decrease or even halt mightiness loss in this form (and in wimpy) if hunger is high enough. So just keep Wolfgang fed to stay in normal, only use gym/dumbells to prepare for a boss fight or when you're failing at the game.

personally, i dont like it.I prefer to make mighty more fun that letting that form forgotten. Wolfgang wants to be the mightiest person so doesnt have sense for me to make his gameplay arround normal form and less sense to have strong man upsides in his normal form

just my taste and how i see wolfgang

[ThymeSpirit]

30 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

personally, i dont like it.I prefer to make mighty more fun that letting that form forgotten. Wolfgang wants to be the mightiest person so doesnt have sense for me to make his gameplay arround normal form and less sense to have strong man upsides in his normal form

just my taste and how i see wolfgang

You don't use thulecite clubs to kill butterflies and then complain how tedious it is to craft them. Being the strongest 100% of the time should not be efficient.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, ThymeSpirit said:

You don't use thulecite clubs to kill butterflies and then complain how tedious it is to craft them. Being the strongest 100% of the time should not be efficient.

who is talking about efficiency?

[ThymeSpirit]

4 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

who is talking about efficiency?

Everyone? Time efficiency, resource efficiency (crafting dumbells). Speed outside of combat is also about efficiency. "I can achieve great things without using much time/resouces". Tedium is the opposite: "I have to put in a lot of time/resources, for little gain". If you want to stay mighty just for the muscular look, that's your decision, it's the same as wearing a garland for a pretty skin, doesn't mean garland needs to be buffed.

I think Klei meant for Wolfgang's mighty form to be used for specific tasks, not 100% of the time, therefore they made it high-maintenance (pre-rework as well, but for skilled players food is easy to obtain, so it didn't work as intended). But of course only Klei knows the "right" vision of their character.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

8 minutes ago, ThymeSpirit said:

think Klei meant for Wolfgang's mighty form to be used for specific tasks

for that they added working speed, wearing piggy bag without penalty, weather resistance, etc

i shared my opinion, going futher in this discussion is pointless

[ThymeSpirit]

25 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

for that they added working speed, wearing piggy bag without penalty, weather resistance, etc

i shared my opinion, going futher in this discussion is pointless and less if you answere me with totally different topics like efficiency or killing butterflies with thulecite clubs. Is hard to have a conversation if one of the parts talks random things to be right

It's not "random things", you just don't want to see my point. But ok, I will stop the argument.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, ThymeSpirit said:

It's not "random things", you just don't want to see my point. But ok, I will stop the argument.

sorry i got your point after i wrote that becuase was hard to me link what you wanted to say with the efficiency and thulecite club comment

anyways, i said to end the discussion because idk what more to say. Im not against having perks in normal form but neither i think it fits or are necessary but, as i said, i prefer klei to improve mighty form. I like more the "keep the meter full to have perks" than "perks everywere for free", is way more rewarding. If was on me i would give him a very little speed boost so everybody would be kinda happy or atleast less unhappy

but honestly, in my opinion he doesnt need anything (maybe making the minigame more engaging) i just make suggestion so people that think he needs more can have fun with him but he is already, imo, top tier, no need for more. Is one of the most efficient character with one of the less hard downsides in the game and for me is fun, maybe not as dinamic as before, but im having a lot of fun with him

keeping the argumentation will just make us repeat things, not trying to sound rude or anything

[JustExo]

8 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

wanda can control her age, wolgang can control his meter

adding perks to his other forms will make him more tedious

Wanda also doesn't lose her perks when she isn't old

If Wanda was unable to use her watches at any other point then the two would be comparable, but she's still able to, just to a worse degree

As it currently stands Wolfgang doesn't have perks outside of his mighty form

[Mike23Ua]

2 minutes ago, JustExo said:

Wanda also doesn't lose her perks when she isn't old

If Wanda was unable to use her watches at any other point then the two would be comparable, but she's still able to, just to a worse degree

As it currently stands Wolfgang doesn't have perks outside of his mighty form

I agree with you completely, Wolfgang should have different behaviors when puny, average and Mighty, the first of those behaviors would be- being able to throw dumbells further & faster, I made my own thread all about the changes I’d want for the Mighty Wolfgang here:

I would like more focus on each of his forms as to what he is and is not able to do (Wolfgang’s chopping speed should become Wendy levels slow when Puny etc..)

The TL:DR- we technically have a character with 3 different sizes & that should be reflected in what that character is capable of doing.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

10 minutes ago, JustExo said:

Wanda also doesn't lose her perks when she isn't old

she loses her damage and her reduced sanity lose when using shadow magic but in old age she loses the ability to craft at regular speed and loses physical damage

 

[JustExo]

4 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

she loses her damage and her reduced sanity lose when using shadow magic but in old age she loses the ability to craft at regular speed and loses physical damage

 

But she still has access to her various watches whereas wolfgang can't even throw his dumbbells outside of mighty form