Instant win in the auction(Sal)

[mrciphers]

Yesterday i was playing Sal campain and i just realize this card can destroy not only argument,but Bounty too,so i can instantly won with only a card

what your thought about this card? 

[pacovf]

The card’s text should reflect it can also destroy bounties, or else it should not be able to do so.

[Sasza22]

There are actually 3 other cards that can do that iirc. Flash badge, clean slate and the instant win card from Oolo all can win you the item on their own (some even can give you multiple).

Imo it feels kinda cheap. It`s a 40 resolve argument and sometimes gets an extra 40 composure and you just delete it with a single card. Ruins the fun of trying to win this unique negotiation.

[pacovf]

Does the Oolo one actually give you an item? I would assume it ends the negotiation without you actually getting anything. At any rate, I think if you've kept that card in your deck for the whole campaign, you deserve the win here.

Flash Badge probably shouldn't work on bounties. For Clean Slate, I could see it "removing" all arguments and bounties, and having the end of this negotiation be triggered when you "destroy" a bounty, rather than just remove it. :shrug:

[RageLeague]

1 hour ago, pacovf said:

Does the Oolo one actually give you an item? I would assume it ends the negotiation without you actually getting anything. At any rate, I think if you've kept that card in your deck for the whole campaign, you deserve the win here.

Flash Badge probably shouldn't work on bounties. For Clean Slate, I could see it "removing" all arguments and bounties, and having the end of this negotiation be triggered when you "destroy" a bounty, rather than just remove it. :shrug:

According to the source code, if you win without getting anything, "get one at random I guess?"

On another note, there really should be special modifier type that is not core, but doesn't count towards bounty or argument. Makes unique negotiation less cheeseable if that's even a word.

[Wumpus the 19th]

1 hour ago, RageLeague said:

 "get one at random I guess?"

This felt very odd to hear was in the code.
Then I found it

[AuntHerbert]

14 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

There are actually 3 other cards that can do that iirc. Flash badge, clean slate and the instant win card from Oolo all can win you the item on their own (some even can give you multiple).

Imo it feels kinda cheap. It`s a 40 resolve argument and sometimes gets an extra 40 composure and you just delete it with a single card. Ruins the fun of trying to win this unique negotiation.

You forgot the "Classified File" loot card from the Admirality Investigator. And as it happens, if you work for Nadan the encounter immediately prior to the auction will ALWAYS give you an opportunity to meet and kill one of those. So I assume this is a feature, not a bug.

You get one free pick of an item if your boss loves you, and one free pick with a tricksy card choice. AND you still have to know which items you want removed from Kashio to beat her down, and you have to stay in the auction long enough, until the right item shows up for sale.

And let's be real, these cards are otherwise not really premium negotiation cards in "normal" negotiations. Classified File and Flash Badge remove 1 single argument before they expend, Clean Slate only works well if you build a very special deck, that doesn't rely on support from your own arguments to whittle down the opponents core argument. "Heavy Handed" pays 1 Dominance, which you usually want to raise, not sacrifice in a typical red deck. So, you take a disadvantage including them and possibly even building around them for a strong lategame advantage. Seems balanced.

Ooor you have to bring enough money and manipulate the auction cards. And I don't find the auction so much"unique" as somewhat annoying, anyways, and I am not 100% certain it works as intended, as I had several instances, where I calculated how to manipulate the bids, so, that the booty in question should just have a tiny bit of resolve left next turn, and then it popped anyways, and I had no idea where that extra reslove damage came from. Not sure about that. 

[pacovf]

2 minutes ago, AuntHerbert said:

And let's be real, these cards are otherwise not really premium negotiation cards in "normal" negotiations. Classified File and Flash Badge remove 1 single argument before they expend, Clean Slate only works well if you build a very special deck, that doesn't rely on support from your own arguments to whittle down the opponents core argument. "Heavy Handed" pays 1 Dominance, which you usually want to raise, not sacrifice in a typical red deck. So, you take a disadvantage including them and possibly even building around them for a strong lategame advantage. Seems balanced.

I can't say I agree with this. They're all solid cards in normal negotiations. They won't win negotiations by themselves, but they will save your butt when drawn at the right time. There's definitely much worse floating around. Being able to insta-win the auction shoots them up from ok to kinda bonkers.

[AuntHerbert]

24 minutes ago, pacovf said:

I can't say I agree with this. They're all solid cards in normal negotiations. They won't win negotiations by themselves, but they will save your butt when drawn at the right time. There's definitely much worse floating around. Being able to insta-win the auction shoots them up from ok to kinda bonkers.

Yes, but Flash Badge is your unique Admirality Card. It's supposed to be somewhat bonkers, and it just isn't. If it wouldn't Expend, or at least came with Ambush, Sticky and Replenish, it would maybe be on par with the other unique faction cards. Most good decks want to be slim and remove unnecessary cards, so they can pull off the gimmick, they are supposed to create more often. Having to cycle a useless card and hoping to be able to play it, to save your behind when you need it, keeps you from just winning the negotiation quicker.

[Maniafig]

I can't think of the last time I had a negotiation deck that was capable of making it to day 5 that wasn't also able to curbstomp the auction without needing to use shills. Months ago, maybe, when I was just starting to play the game.

This topic strikes me as a non-issue, an anti-argument card curbstomping a negotiation all about destroying an argument is entirely working as intended. Considering that these cards are usually dead when drawn on turn 1, I consider it a minor bonus when the option comes up when playing as Sal, not enough to heavily sway my preference.

[pacovf]

I wouldn’t say the auction is easy to curbstomp at P7. Especially not if you’re trying to hold out for a better relic than the one originally on offer. Having one of these cards available drastically changes how easy it is to get the relic you want.

If this was a random negotiation, then it would be whatever, but it’s essentially the final boss negotiation. Kinda feels like if you had a combat card that said “remove all buffs on target enemy”. It would be a solid card throughout the campaign that also just happens to negate the final boss entirely.

At any rate, this ranks low in the list of balance changes that I would like to see, so I’m ok with this either way.

[AuntHerbert]

3 minutes ago, pacovf said:

if you had a combat card that said “remove all buffs on target enemy”.

Well, "remove one out of 5 buffs" to be more precise. And you have to stick around in the auction until the one you want to get rid off even shows up, else that combat card just says "remove one random buff out of 5"

[pacovf]

Maybe I used a wrong comparison, so my point got lost. The point is that these cards trivialise the final negotiation of the campaign, which is disappointing / anticlimactic, on top of being good cards during the rest of the run. A card that trivialised the final boss fight (instead of the final boss negotiation) would obviously be nerfed for this reason.