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A change to atmo suits/obtaining them


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So I know people have complained quite a bit in the past about reed fiber not being available earlier in the game not just for suits. I get that its to delay suits to force the player to deal with environmental hazards rather then bulldoze through them which I definitely agree with. I think the method of gating suits is the issue. I personally think we should have access to reed fiber in the swamp start but then make suits from a combination of reed fiber, refined metal, glass, and plastic as a way to gate suit production until the mid game. This would allow players to make things like paintings or basic clothing without letting them run straight to suits. This would also allow devs to put reed fiber in the swamp and drekos in the caustic biome. This does give the player the option of ranching dreckos and try to convert them to glossy dreckos to get suits but I feel that this is fine for a couple of reasons. You don't have access to meal wood without going to the second asteroid anyway so the only way you will get glossy drecko's really early is through a large amount of luck which is unreliable anyway. It also takes a fair amount of time to get this ranch ready so by then your options will be either trying to rush the dangerous heat of the oil or taking the time to ranch dreckos which seems like a fair trade to me.

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Still don't understand why we need paintings or basic clothes so early on. Please explain. Is there seriously a morale problem early in the game? 

1 hour ago, crbd115 said:

make suits from a combination of reed fiber, refined metal, glass, and plastic

 

Also, there is a logical error in your scheme. You say: limit ATMO with introducing plastic into the recipe. You need plastic to go down into the oil biome, but you need to go down into the oil biome to get plastic. Or sit back and breed plastic Drecko's (probably because you like to do it). 

Do you realise that the lack of variation in getting plastic is a bad thing, don't you? Especially since you're proposing a relatively sophisticated (for a new player only) Dreko farm that actually outperforms several polymer presses and requires almost nothing in return other than a couple of trained dudes shaving them off 24/7? What's the point of a polymer press at all then, if everyone will be forced to do dreko farms, even those who are annoyed by the idiocy of the absolute OP scheme of that farm? And the alternative you propose - an oil biome rush - is quite ridiculous... I'll be very interested to see who, instead of flying to the next asteroid for reeds, will go butt-naked storming a 250 degree oil biome.

Introducing any material other than plastic into the recipe won't stop me from spamming ATMO and mindlessly cutting out the entire asteroid. 

Please stop trying all sorts of clever ways to bring back the freaking ATMO suits in early game, the ONI is finally giving some sort of challenge. You've already been given free food for 8 morals with a self-replicating worm that, purely by chance, does not require domestication or special keeping conditions, eats the same as the plants it pollinates, and, again, purely by chance, there's a super-safe geyser on the second asteroid that provides endless food and fertilizer for that worm and plants. You know, just in case you run out of the 400,000 tonnes of sulphur placed on the main asteroid.

2 hours ago, crbd115 said:

taking the time to ranch dreckos which seems like a fair trade to me.

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P.S. I can only agree with one thing here. It is possible to change the recipe for basic clothing so that it does not require fibre. Simply because clothes are no longer needed when you have fibre. Unless it's just that ridiculous shirt for 30 decor, that's where fibre should be left in recipe to create it.

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Please stop trying all sorts of clever ways to bring back the freaking ATMO suits in early game, the ONI is finally giving some sort of challenge

Where did I say I was trying to bring atmo suits to the early game? I was trying to give a compromise to the people who want to use reed fiber, without having atmo suits in the early game. That was the whole point. I don't get why your creating an entire essay paper off one suggestion and your also seeming entirely hostile with your random assumptions.
The drecko starvation farming is an entirely different issue but to get to that point takes more then long enough that the player should have explored other asteroids already to get to the point your talking about. Honestly I think starvation farming is probably on the devs radar as something they are working on since they very quickly made sure to nerf plug slug starvation farms.

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Okay. I’ll start with an apology, because I’m finally enjoying the game and I don’t want it to get ruined. I love this game, and I’m a little sensitive to attempts to make it easier where it doesn’t have to be. I hope you understand.

2 hours ago, crbd115 said:

Where did I say I was trying to bring atmo suits to the early game?

Well it's literally said with the phrase "let's introduce early fibre". No kidding, why do we need paintings and, god forbid, clothes before the duplicants really start needing so much decoration? 

I assumed that the real aim was a quick ATMO through dreko farm. And no, dreko farm doesn't require a long development as you say. Don't forget that you don't need a farm like the one in the picture to create two or three ATMOs. Even if you don't use starving farm schemes, three or four dreko are enough to provide yourself with suits. It comes out even worse: your only way to get plastic is with a dreko farm, even if you don't land on a second asteroid just to collect mealwood seeds from its outer layers. With plastic in the recipe, you're either breeding plastic drekos or sitting around without suits.

I'll even explain how to do it quick and why this is an issue: Hydrogen isn't a problem at the start of the game because you have very easy to manage geysers with endless cold water. Which means you can almost immediately make an electrolyzer and start making full dreko breeding farms. I mean, not just breeding them, but specifically stocking 4+ pre-built farms ready to provide scale growth conditions. If you have drekos on your home asteroid, you can domesticate and breed a bunch of farms on Balm lily, and then just swap it for mealwood by flying to a nearby asteroid, so you'll start getting plastic dreko eggs in piles, and after 5 cycles you can start swap regular drekos for plastic ones. After 20-30 cycles, you'll have as much plastic as you want. And you, unlike the way it's done now, don't have to bring in an egg (or 2-3 eggs if you're lucky) and breed drecko from scratch, you just have to dig up the mealwood seeds and go home, you don't even have to stabilise the asteroid.

Maybe it's not so obvious for you and I made the mistake of thinking you thought well of your suggestion. Sorry about my essay then, perhaps I should have started with this one.

2 hours ago, crbd115 said:

entirely hostile with your random assumptions.

Fine. I agree that I was too harsh, I'm sorry. But don't make 'random suggestions' so you don't get 'random assumptions'. Actually, I write this in such an aggressive manner more as a joke. If I had known you are so fragile, I would have started our communication with a bouquet of mealwood for your household drekos. :)

2 hours ago, crbd115 said:

but to get to that point takes more then long enough that the player should have explored other asteroids already

As you can see, no, you don't. With dreko on the home asteroid, you need a worm, a couple of rows with grubfruir, a second level rancher, an electrolyzer, 2 tons of raw metal and 500-1000 kg of CO2 (or even use a sugar engine, but I haven't tested it, don't know). All this is available on the main asteroid. And yes, you've probably already noticed that you can bring in reeds in the same way in current build, but at least it doesn't open up the plastic era at the same time as the ATMO era. And you have to go deeper for it, into the swamp biome, and that's a bit risky without building at least a primitive colony. And of course it doesn’t give you a free decor at almost the start of the game.

By the way, you ignored the argument: what's the point of all this? To get paintings? Why are the paintings needed so early on? To get the clothes? A fair point, and I said so.But, in my opinion, the problem with warm and cool clothes is that they are made of fiber. That's what really needs to change, because with fiber there is no need for special clothing. And clothing with decorations is designed for mid-late game, here I quite agree with the price. And why don't you think the drecko farm would eliminate polymer presses as an alternative?

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2 hours ago, MachineryMan said:

Well it's literally said with the phrase "let's introduce early fibre"

And its literally said that we change the recipe so early fiber doesn't matter. 

2 hours ago, MachineryMan said:

why do we need paintings and, god forbid, clothes before the duplicants really start needing so much decoration...
what's the point of all this? To get paintings? Why are the paintings needed so early on? To get the clothes?

People have asked in the past and some people prefer to use paintings to reduce the amount of floor space that would otherwise be used by statues if you don't have reed fiber. And you keep saying change the recipe on clothes but there is no reason to. Clothes are made from cotton or other fibrous material.

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And why don't you think the drecko farm would eliminate polymer presses as an alternative?

For the same reason not everyone does drecko farming on every playthrough. There are two valid choices, yes drecko starving is obviously better but it is mostly considered taking advantage of unintended game design so not everyone does it. I have done both and I do understand the ridiculousness of having that much plastic after you get it up and running for a while, but for the most part it takes a fair amount of time and micromanaging to set up compared to rushing oil. Also you criticize rushing oil as if there's not a method to do so without suits, I do it quite often on the dlc playthroughs. simply just removing the abysallite barrier then dumping any extra liquids I have on top of the oil and it cools the direct area I plan to access fairly quickly. I don't care about the heat leakage because I don't grow any food on the second asteroid. I just ship it in same with the oxygen which is usually fairly cold because the main water sources are cold on the first asteroid.

 

3 hours ago, MachineryMan said:

Okay. I’ll start with an apology, because I’m finally enjoying the game and I don’t want it to get ruined. I love this game, and I’m a little sensitive to attempts to make it easier where it doesn’t have to be. I hope you understand.

I'm not talking about making the game easier just changing the basic strategy. I have played about 1,400 hours of oni I'm not interested in making it easy. I simply am suggesting a this because 
A: The caustic biome feels like just a placeholder with no critters in it.
B: Having reed fiber be available earlier opens up the clothing option for cool vests if you want to try to go into oil without the suits yet and if suits are made with plastic you would probably want cool vests to to do that.
C: I would personally like them to add on to the current clothing system similar to how some of the mods do it or even if they do it their own way and having reed fiber earlier allows it to be used.
D: This dlc is comepletly reworking how everything is used I'm sure there will be other uses for reed fiber in the future besides the current list of clothes, carpet, suits, and paitings

3 hours ago, MachineryMan said:

If I had known you are so fragile, I would have started our communication with a bouquet of mealwood for your household drekos. :)

I'm not fragile. I've been trying to have a discussion, meanwhile you prove you can't go one post without insulting others you disagree with. Which is why the Devs are getting involved apparently.

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10 hours ago, crbd115 said:

And its literally said that we change the recipe so early fiber doesn't matter.

Yes, okay, but the recipe change you suggested is plastic. And further suggested to take plastic from Dreko. And drag Dreko to the first asteroid. And here I immediately understood where the wind was blowing, because it's obvious how to get out into plastic and ATMO. So no, fiber IS matter.

10 hours ago, crbd115 said:

People have asked in the past and some people prefer to use paintings to reduce the amount of floor space that would otherwise be used by statues if you don't have reed fiber.

This is a problem with the decorating system in general. It is not very well thought out. For example, I almost don't see the point of non-master level designers if I'm not playing a super difficult level in a hard starting environment. Which the DLC doesn't have yet. I like the basic idea, don't get me wrong, but I think it needs improvement and it's not about the paintings.

10 hours ago, crbd115 said:

Clothes are made from cotton or other fibrous material.

Yes, of course, and the ladders are made of stone. So are the cots, the water cooler, and the refinery. And gas masks don't need rubber seals, just metals. In all other aspects of the game, a clear "As in life" logic is followed. How could I suggest that clothes not be made of fiber?

You still don't get the point. Warm and cool clothing is made of material that gives you access to ATMO, which makes the clothing unnecessary. What they will be made of makes no difference to me, but I almost don't use them now for that very reason.

10 hours ago, crbd115 said:

There are two valid choices

You're missing the point again. If you change the game the way you ask, you have a super easy way to get plastic and a super hard way through pouring oil biome with cold water and other ways. I know how to get in there without ATMO too, you can use vacuum corridors for example. But why do I need this long and boring fuss when I have Dreko? Currently I have the right to choose whether to use presses or dreko, they are balanced in terms of accessibility.  

10 hours ago, crbd115 said:

A:
B:
C: 
D:

A: I agree, but I understand why that's the case. But that doesn't mean we should leave it that way.

B: Well, I got a biome at 250 degrees. They won't save me there. But I agree with that, clothes are really needed before ATMO. Solved by changing the clothing recipe, not the starting asteroid for dreko, which brings too much change to the balance.

С: I watched the clothing mods, but I wasn't much interested in them. Which one are you talking about? 

D: I really hope they divide it up into a simpler fiber and a more complex fiber. This will solve the problems with early decoration and dressing and prevent the use of early ATMOs and heavy decoration. Maybe it's the new kind of creature on the home asteroid that will solve two problems at once - repopulate an empty biome and provide simple fiber for that purpose. Some kind of long-haired beaver that eats phosphorus and when sheared gives simple fiber and very little meat at death (500 grams, no more). And with not too difficult keeping conditions.

10 hours ago, crbd115 said:

I've been trying to have a discussion, meanwhile you prove you can't go one post without insulting others you disagree with

Spoiler

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I really wasn't trying to hurt you in the second one. I wasn't trying to hurt you in that one either. Forgive me at last, soon it will be February 14, we must live in peace again...

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16 hours ago, MachineryMan said:

Still don't understand why we need paintings or basic clothes so early on. Please explain. Is there seriously a morale problem early in the game? 

The thing with paintings and clothes is that some of the early technologies rely on those being available. Making clothes or paintings is earlygame tech. If you don`thave fiber availalbe you are researching dead tech to get further to stuff with glass and plastic that might be obtainable earlier.

That`s pretty awkward and feels illogical. Why do we get it early in the tech tree if we can`t use it? We could live with that ofc, some other research stuff doesn`t get much use either. We could ask for a tech tree rework so we don`t have paintings early on or we can ask to change the atmo suit recipie so it`s still gated behind a rare resource but not one that is also used for stuff considered early game.

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13 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

Why do we get it early in the tech tree if we can`t use it? We could live with that ofc, some other research stuff doesn`t get much use either.

Well, the research tree in general is a bit strange and is not a reference point of progress for me. Here we should start with the fact that the dude in this thread rightly noted that the ability to explore the entire tree almost at the start of the game looks strange. Well, and you have the soda fountain as the crown of techevolution, and you can make paintings about the same time as rockets. But I saw the point, I agree that the early decor is poor now. What do you think of the suggestion of long-haired beavers?

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2 minutes ago, MachineryMan said:

Well, the research tree in general is a bit strange and is not a reference point of progress for me. Here we should start with the fact that the dude in this thread rightly noted that the ability to explore the entire tree almost at the start of the game looks strange.

Yeah the tech tree could use some switching around but still if one resource is used for earlygame stuff but only obtainable mid to late game there is something wrong with that. We could make paintings a late game thing but they`d require a buff to compensate that. Otherwise they wouldn`t be used at all. As for regular clothes, they need a complete rework (they werent touched since thermal upgrade) and i suggested it in a few threads before.

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3 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

We could make paintings a late game thing but they`d require a buff to compensate that.

If you don't change anything about the math of the decor, it makes no sense. They already give a lot of decor, so how much more could they do? Probably a quick solution is to give you the ability to make bad canvases to paint early in the game. Which give you a decor penalty. That is, the work can be a masterpiece, but because of the poor crafting material will give just fine decor for the early stage of the game. Of course, such a canvas should not give a negative decor, even if the designer is a novice.

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@MachineryMan Ok you keep saying I'm missing the point when I answer you, but since you disagree with those counter points and you just say I'm missing the point. You also keep bringing in other problems with other systems but I'm not making this post to fix those. Yes they are issues but I have found if I make a post trying to suggest one fix but then include every other system and how to fix them no one wants to discuss or they don't read the whole post because it will end up being an essay rather then a suggestion.
Yes starving farms are an issue, but I think the devs will fix that soon. Honestly I will probably make a different post talking about a potential suggestion to fix that system if they don't do something in the near future. 
Yes decor and clothing both need reworks (or at least more content) but I'm not here to fix those either.
My suggestion is purely based on how to put reed fiber or dreckos back in the early game without pushing atmo suits to the early game as best I can. This allows the devs to utlilize reed fiber as a resource for other things if they want without having it be gated entirely by controlling atmo suits. 


As an add on to the recipe if it needs to be harder you could replace the refined metal with a small amount of steel or even add it to the recipe.

 

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On 2/9/2021 at 11:45 PM, crbd115 said:

So I know people have complained quite a bit in the past about reed fiber not being available earlier in the game not just for suits.

I agree that it would be nice to have reed fiber earlier.

It makes sense to respect the base game's biome and it makes sense to keep reed fiber as early tech.

On 2/9/2021 at 11:45 PM, crbd115 said:

but then make suits from a combination of reed fiber, refined metal, glass, and plastic

But I also agree that plastic is not the best material. Perhaps it should be some kind of glue? Or rubber?

Potentially: Arbor trees or arbor wood can be used to make rubber (wood doesn't have enough uses either way). And crafting station can be used to process(extract) the wood to rubber early on with automatable receipts becoming available later (oil or plastic byproducts?). If suits will start to use rubber+reed fiber in scope of DLC to make suit, it should be sufficient gate that requires visiting one more asteroid. One asteroid to get wood and one asteroid to get reed fiber, if neither is in your starting one.

P.S. Probably a bad idea to gate this in normal game unless rubber gets more early on receipts (no wood in some starts).

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4 minutes ago, crbd115 said:

You also keep bringing in other problems with other systems but I'm not making this post to fix those.

I keep bringing them up precisely because you did not consider them in your suggestion. More precisely, the solution you propose does not take them into account. I already realized that you don't want fast ATMOs, and I apologized for the mistake. And I don't think your suggestion is bad, I only don't like the solution: moving the dreko to the first asteroid. Without mentioning the other systems, I wouldn't be able to explain why. Unfortunately, it is because of the effect on a large number of side systems. And that's why I can't consider your solution to the problem within the given topic without going beyond it. As for your "missing the point" argument, we can just decide that we strongly disagree somewhere. Let there be two opinions to consider, if this problem is even considered by the developers. That's fine, too. We don't have to end up creating a step-by-step guide to changing the game, where everything is accounted for. No reason to ignore my bouquet.

14 minutes ago, crbd115 said:

Honestly I will probably make a different post talking about a potential suggestion to fix that system if they don't do something in the near future. 

Good call. I'll support you.

56 minutes ago, crbd115 said:

As an add on to the recipe if it needs to be harder you could replace the refined metal with a small amount of steel or even add it to the recipe.

Unfortunately, steel in small quantities can also be obtained almost at the beginning of the game. This will not stop the creation of the suit. Considering the opportunities it gives, it seems to me the price with steel is even fair, but steel is available. And increasing the cost of maintenance doesn't seem to solve the problem either, which is why I like the artificial limitation of no fiber sources.

38 minutes ago, crbd115 said:

but I have found if I make a post trying to suggest one fix but then include every other system and how to fix them no one wants to discuss or they don't read the whole post because it will end up being an essay rather then a suggestion.

It's more of an offtopic:

Spoiler

This, by the way, is an interesting observation. I've noticed that there is a very small, but specific audience gathered here. I've written some pretty big essay-like posts already, and almost all of them have generated some sort of discussion. I generally see the average player of this game as a fairly mature, intelligent person who hasn't been stopped by the initial difficulty of the game. Oni is more like an old-school game like HoMM3. where you don't get any explanations and have to explore the world by yourself, than a modern game like CoD where you're led to the end by hand. Of course, you can imagine the portrait of a person who plays it. I don't think these people are quick content consumers, they're more about reading, calculating and thinking. So I usually don't skimp on words and try to look at the problem comprehensively, although I admit that I often write too much and it's not exactly merciful, given that I'm not an English speaker. I mean, try to not hold yourself back. I think it's a lot of fun to talk about the game, even with someone who disagrees with you. At least for me.

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22 hours ago, AndreyKl said:

But I also agree that plastic is not the best material. Perhaps it should be some kind of glue? Or rubber?

Looks like Klei added resin as a resource in their newest update. Maybe we could combine it with sulfur for some rubber or glue? Depends how hard it is to get though. Apparently it can be refined into isoresin as well.

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