Nerf liquid locks/fix water and gas interaction

[johnisfine]

Hello. Right now, 38 grams of liquid next to 1 block way can create vacuum or separate gases in two rooms. This is kind of overpowered. And same 38 grams of liquid can occupy whole cubic meter and push 2 kilos of gas.
I think it would be good to allow gases and liquids occupy same cubic meter (block). For example, there is 40 grams of water and 960 grams of oxygen, water occupies 4% of block at the bottom and oxygen occupies 96% of block at the top. Or, there is 240 grams of hydrogen and 760 grams of oxygen, hydrogen occupies 24% of block at the top and oxygen occupies 76% of block at the bottom, according to difference in density.
I know, this would be hard, but this could solve not only some op liquid locks but other frustrations too.

[Sasza22]

It`s mostly a sideeffectof how the game engine works. Allowing multiple elements in one tile would double the amount of calculations in the best case scenario. There are just so many systems build on top of the "one element per tile" rule.

But i suggested a way before. If an element was below 1% mass of the elements around it it should act as debris. 5g of water surrounded by 2000g of oxygen would act like it was bottled except it would appear liquid and give the soggy feet debuff. Same for gas in water but would float to the top and 2 liquids or gasses mixed. The lesser one could act as a bottle but move around like normal.

[he77789]

The problem is that we don't really have any other viable early/mid game airlock designs; actual airlocks made by doors either delete gas, or require lots of automation and time to let a dupe pass.

[ASnogarD]

To be honest it is op, a full airlock and all you get is a soggy debuff,

Not saying you cant used it in game, its a game, its a mechanic. Use it or dont, in a single player game its your choice.

BUT lets be honest its a exploit of the games physics, a real airlock would have 2 doors, a few pumps, a lot of sensors and take time to empty rooom, open door... then the dupe would turn around to go pee :P

[he77789]

The problem is that you cannot make it so that the mechanized airlock to be locked yet still allowing dupes to pathfind through it.

You can exploit jumping mechanics to avoid the debuff.

[Sasza22]

1 hour ago, he77789 said:

The problem is that you cannot make it so that the mechanized airlock to be locked yet still allowing dupes to pathfind through it.

We got the duplicant checkpoint to make the dupe wait.

There were a few real airlock designs that did it the "proper" way. The issue is that the were like 15 tiles long and still required the dupe to wait. There was also one using liquid to push the gas away. Not to mention you could use 2 transit tube stations if you have the power.

[JRup]

Airlocks are working as they should (as in: airtight when closed), the effect liquid locks provide are how the game works as @Sasza22 said and I don't believe there is a need to suggest devs change things which are part of the game.

It is better to embrace a philosophy of "If I don't like it I don't build it that way and build it my way"  Please note the emphasis on "build".

Airlocks have been portrayed in many places and one commonality is that opening them will leak gas. This is because they are glorified heavy doors. No more, no less.

Have a classic portrayal of an airlock array and enjoy as the oxygen vents into space (Edit: Put youtube link inside spoiler tag, Aliens was rated 'R' at launch :)

Spoiler

 

 

[he77789]

10 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

We got the duplicant checkpoint to make the dupe wait.

Well that would still only allow one dupe to pass at a time, as they wait for one side to close and the other side to open (or vacuuming out the gases).

[Sasza22]

19 hours ago, he77789 said:

Well that would still only allow one dupe to pass at a time, as they wait for one side to close and the other side to open (or vacuuming out the gases).

Yes the designs are big and usually you need one for each direction. Only the transit tube station works instantly but can break pathing if too many dupes try using it at once or when power goes out.

[Yunru]

On 1/6/2021 at 5:25 AM, ASnogarD said:

BUT lets be honest its a exploit of the games physics

In the real world, we call those physics exploits "technology" :P

On 1/6/2021 at 11:25 AM, he77789 said:

The problem is that you cannot make it so that the mechanized airlock to be locked yet still allowing dupes to pathfind through it.

Yes you can, that's what duplicant checkpoints are for. 

[he77789]

On 1/9/2021 at 12:26 AM, Yunru said:

that's what duplicant checkpoints are for. 

duplicant checkpoints do not block gas flow.

[Yunru]

4 hours ago, he77789 said:

duplicant checkpoints do not block gas flow.

True, but you don't need doors that lock to halt but not block dupe pathfinding. 

 

A set of doors (to block gas) and some checkpoints (to block dupes) are all you need. (As much as I'd like checkpoint doors.) 

[MachineryMan]

On 12/19/2020 at 5:25 PM, johnisfine said:

Or, there is 240 grams of hydrogen and 760 grams of oxygen, hydrogen occupies 24% of block at the top and oxygen occupies 76% of block at the bottom, according to difference in density.

Do you realise that your electronic computing machine will explode after the 500th cycle trying to calculate all this?

On 1/6/2021 at 8:25 AM, ASnogarD said:

To be honest it is op, a full airlock and all you get is a soggy debuff,

We are trying our best. The developer hasn't given any sane tools for shielding passageways from temperature and mixing gases. There are already mods of an almost well working airlock (which has two doors and a 10kW charge, not cheater doors that don't let anything through) and a well working thermal insulating door. But there are people who do not use mods as a matter of principle. The "make it with automation and doors" argument doesn't work, designs with two plastic pumps cannot handle hot zones. Besides, if we're all being picky here about physics, it's just funny to watch how bunch of honest people honestly think that two 120W plastic pumps will create a vacuum in 10 seconds. Also, it's weird to have a ready-made aqua tuner, refinery, rocket engine or, god forbid, refrigerator, but not to have a ready-made airlock. I don't think there are many people excited about a drip cooler and isolation system, but we have no other options (if not mods). Especially in emergency situations, cooling in vacuum and at high temperatures.

And you dont need to get soggy debuff, you just need a 3 diffirent liquids.

On 1/7/2021 at 10:09 PM, Sasza22 said:

Only the transit tube station works instantly but can break pathing if too many dupes try using it at once or when power goes out.

The problem is not power consumption or traffic. You could put up five gates and forget about it. The problem is that it's expensive at the beginning of the game and it doesn't work in hot zones. Your tube will melt. 

P.S. And before you start, yes, I'm aware of the -255 degree super-cooler based vacuum seals that instantly freeze any gas that gets between the doors. Don't pretend that this is the obvious solution to the vacuum airlock problem. 

[Yunru]

2 minutes ago, MachineryMan said:

The "make it with automation and doors" argument doesn't work, designs with two plastic pumps cannot handle hot zones.

Correction: the "make it with automation and doors" argument doesn't work well for areas outside of the heat range of a plastic pump. 

[Sasza22]

6 minutes ago, MachineryMan said:

The problem is that it's expensive at the beginning of the game and it doesn't work in hot zones. Your tube will melt.

Well yeah. Tubes are expensive but they provide a full seal. Personally i like that this is a lategame option. As for the heat i don`t see an easy option to seal hot zones while making it accessible. For now we just don`t have the tools for that. None other airlock design can reliably serve in hot temperatures without stuff overheating or melting.

[MachineryMan]

12 minutes ago, Yunru said:

Correction: the "make it with automation and doors" argument doesn't work well for areas outside of the heat range of a plastic pump.

Correction: The word well does not fit well with the situation of "not doing well at all".

6 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

None other airlock design can reliably serve in hot temperatures without stuff overheating or melting.

Sorry, but there is. A hydro seal. I don't really understand the whining about them at all. Don't like doing the drip type, do one of these things!

Increase the size to 9 cells, fill completely with oil, build two of them, pump air between them and enjoy a exploit-free hydro seal! Physicists confirm: Everything is within physics! What a drama!

In my example, the tank is for cooling the butt after a hot zone, not the hydroseal, but the principle is clear.

 

[Yunru]

Just now, MachineryMan said:

Correction: The word well does not fit well with the situation of "not doing well at all".

Except as you just demonstrated, it does. 

It doesn't work well, but that's a very different story to not working at all. 

[Sasza22]

2 minutes ago, MachineryMan said:

Sorry, but there is. A hydro seal.

I assumed you meant really hot temperatures that would vaporize they hydro lock. I guess that one is fine up to the petrol boiling temperature (still leaks heat through but so does the transit tube lock). Transit tubes work up to the plastic melting point which is somewhere around 150 C currently irc.

6 minutes ago, MachineryMan said:

Physicists confirm: Everything is within physics! What a drama!

I never said i`m against those things. Especially if done without the liquid staking exploit interaction. It`s just weird that this seems to be the only solution given all the tech we got lategame.

[MachineryMan]

44 minutes ago, Yunru said:

It doesn't work well, but that's a very different story to not working at all. 

Bah!

If something doesn't work well, it needs to be done better. And you're also a nerd! We can be friends.

Ah, I see you've designed one of the pump airlock variants. You have something to protect. Great design, I really like it, I really do!I would try adding a drip dissipation system for incoming gases. That way when the door is closed the air pump will be quicker to deal with.  Put a plastic hydro pump downstairs and a couple of valves for very low pressure. The extra energy cost would be negligible and the speed should increase... Hmmm... You could even think of putting a full pump and 4-8 drip valves down there, so a powerful pump would pump the gas out of three cells... Or even put waterfalls in there if the drip valves don't work as intended... It would also solve the problem of "not good enough" design for a high-temperature environment... hmm...

Spoiler

Oh, wait... Soggy debuff again... Nah, your design is better, it doesn't get your feet wet...

35 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

hydro lock

Oh, sorry, i mean a Liquid lock. I just love the word Hydro. Hydrolisk... Hydrolock... Hydrolockophobia... Good words.

35 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

I never said i`m against those things.

And again I'm sorry, I didn't mean you specifically. My English is bad. And in our native language we often construct phrases with a hypothetical context, supposedly addressing a specific person, but everyone realises that we are addressing no one in particular. That's why it felt that way.

[Yunru]

9 minutes ago, MachineryMan said:

Nah, your design is better, it doesn't get your feet wet...

I excel in the pointless! :P

Although if we had any of:

• Better pumps
• Checkpoints that obstruct more than dupes
• Sensors that aren't main buildings

Then I might be able to build one that's not useless, maybe. 

(Oxygen masks also change things to make proper air locks more viable.) 

[MachineryMan]

23 minutes ago, Yunru said:

I excel in the pointless! :P

In all seriousness, I understand you. I'm trying to joking around more than I am seriously fighting against airlock systems. It's more of a phantom pain, because I too have been trying to make a working airlock and looking for solutions invented by someone else. They all work not well enough. No sense of satisfactionm which you get when you've solved a problem.