The End of The Middle

[h1mk]

My own conclusion:

Everything is a spiritual repeat of DS storyline. Fuelweaver is big Maxwell and Metheus is big Charlie. Fuel made choice to indulge into fuel and everyone paid for it, thus Fuel calls for metheus, and Maxwell for Charlie before they die, the fuelweaver is on our side in the same way Maxwell is.

When he claimed he was wrong for killing you, that was because he realized, right before returning to his sleep "Metheus isn't here, uh oh." Because to him,You were being saved; he was preventing you from jumping into the deeper pits of hell. Metheus betrayed him.

(pause)

being punished for too much curiousity is a theme in this game, Charlie regretting her tampering with Maxwell's room, Wagstaff who took science a bit too far, Wilson fooled by a promise of discovery, Winona with her conspiracy theories and portal tapestry. This is a list of every character we have seen pulled into the constant. Other than that, we have no reason to think everyone else wasn't taken in the same way. Charlie is even described as curious in DS's ARG, by the job description from Maxwell and an image file name.

(unpause)

Charlie and Metheus are the bad guys, Charlie is the lesser of the two. Thus they combine. Did survivors screw up killing fuelweaver? Going around seeking more and more power, indulging into killing to conquer the Constant.  Maybe not, if Fuelweaver is so upset that Metheus is gone, maybe the only hope left is to continue the path and fix the relations of them, otherwise meeting defeat to Metheus/Charlie

 

There it is, this is the furthest I can guess because it obviously falls into a split: 

Good Ending (Kings)

Bad Ending (Queens)

...

Blunderbuss is Wrong Ending (NOOOO!)

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

I feel very confused now... Plus Metheus is inside Charlie sure, if that's what you meant. In the forge? Trailer we can see her absorbing the lunar energy, and only metheus would know what that is. And I don't know if she's "the bad guy", she's most likely a demon pawn of "Them"

[Lucenix]

7 hours ago, Blunderbuss said:

When he claimed he was wrong for killing you

I don't really believe that he was stating it was wrong to kill you, I think he's reffering to his past, as in he was wrong when he worshipped the Fuel and overused it. 

7 hours ago, Blunderbuss said:

Charlie and Metheus are the bad guys

What is the reasoning behind this... I can't see why would Metheus be a bad guy in any sense of the word. Until now, we don't even know if she has meddled with things yet. If she's the Torch Ancient, then she tried to stop the shadows from corrupting her kingdom. 

 

7 hours ago, Blunderbuss said:

Everything is a spiritual repeat of DS storyline. Fuelweaver is big Maxwell and Metheus is big Charlie. Fuel made choice to indulge into fuel and everyone paid for it, thus Fuel calls for metheus, and Maxwell for Charlie before they die, the fuelweaver is on our side in the same way Maxwell is.

This is really interesting. Finding paralels like this opens up a lot of possibilities in story telling... but there are some key differences that don't sell me the conclusion. Both the Fuelweaver and Maxwell dabbled in arts because of their curiosity and some sort of lust for power that backfired and caused catastrofic damage to those around them, that's all good. Now, Metheus tried to stop the destruction and save her people, something that Charlie didn't even have the chance to do. The only thing I see that binds them together is their relationship with their respective "condemner", we know that Charlie feels betrayed by Maxwell and hates him, blames him for her corruption. We don't know if Metheus does that as well, but she took heed after we kill the Ancient Fuelweaver... maybe she felt the same type of anger towards her former companion, as she came to believe it was his fault she got corrupted. Either way, both of the Queens were betrayed (in different ways) and justifiably could hate their betrayers... but that doens't mean their intentions are evil.

[Terra B Welch]

This makes me wonder, if metheus is the one absorbing lunar energy, then my boss prediction might hold true.

 

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

Just now, Terra M Welch said:

This makes me wonder, if metheus is the one absorbing lunar energy, then my boss prediction might hold true.

 

It's totally Metheus. Charlie wouldn't know what that energy was, plus in the murals a white energy is seen above Metheus 

[Terra B Welch]

12 minutes ago, Charlie Dark said:

It's totally Metheus. Charlie wouldn't know what that energy was, plus in the murals a white energy is seen above Metheus 

I was refering to this thread.

Metheus could easilly serve the role of this "entity" I was thinking of.

[Lucenix]

16 minutes ago, Terra M Welch said:

I was refering to this thread.

Metheus could easilly serve the role of this "entity" I was thinking of.

It totally can! She has shown dismay towards the shadows and the power to hold them back, fighting their influence. The Moon has shown opposite qualities to the shadows, so it wouldn't be a stretch to call them polar opposites.

[bruhmoment23]

52 minutes ago, Terra M Welch said:

This makes me wonder, if metheus is the one absorbing lunar energy, then my boss prediction might hold true.

 

I don't really agree, both in your statement and the thread you made, atleast in the entire fuel/power perspective. I doubt there's a force strong enough to wield just these two types of magic, rather "Them" possessing all types of magic this world and more possesses quote from Fuelweaver : They are unfathomable. The Constant having peculiar patterns of itself, aswell as how damaged they are: This world's fabric is frayed and torn. My point being there isn't a single entity strong enough to wield both lunar and shadow magic at the same time, while being stable, Fuelweaver himself was consumed and devoured by nightmare magic, sure there is a chance of another entity being as insane as him, for the price of power. While there is a possibility of Metheus wielding the lunar magic, i doubt she would be able to handle second corruptive source of power that is the nightmare magic. In my opinion it would make more sense for Metheus to be bound to only Lunar Power.

3 hours ago, Charlie Dark said:

Plus Metheus is inside Charlie sure, if that's what you meant. In the forge? Trailer we can see her absorbing the lunar energy, and only metheus would know what that is.

This sounds rather odd, why would an entirely diffrent force inhabit itself inside a simple puppet? For all we know the "Lunar magic in Forge Trailer" you're refering to could be an animation effect without the intention to be speculated as such, unless of course there is a proof.

Personally, i liked @Lucenix's interpretation. Alot of interesting speculations that make sense, aswell as tell how everything could unravel in the future.

[Lucenix]

12 minutes ago, bruhmoment23 said:

Personally, i liked @Lucenix's interpretation. Alot of interesting speculations that make sense, aswell as tell how everything could unravel in the future.

First of all thank you! It holds its own ground as a theory thanks to a lot of assumptions based on little details that could mean everything or nothing at all, so it could be spot on... or completely wrong, but that doesn't matter. It was fun, so I hope you had fun as well.

14 minutes ago, bruhmoment23 said:

Fuelweaver himself was consumed and devoured by nightmare magic, sure there is a chance of another entity being as insane as him, for the price of power. While there is a possibility of Metheus wielding the lunar magic, i doubt she would be able to handle second corruptive source of power that is the nightmare magic. In my opinion it would make more sense for Metheus to be bound to only Lunar Power.

Fuelweaver seems like a powerful entity in and on itself, so stronger than him could actually manage to wield fully one of the powers... now, wield them both... In the same way, it's fair to assume Metheus has similar powers to the Fuelweaver, in the sense that she probably can sustain the same amount of corruption before being transformed into a shell of her former self (like the Fuelweaver became the Shadow Atrium, consumed by guilt and grief). Also, we know Metheus underwent through some sort of sacrifice, to protect the Fuelweaver and destroy the Gateway, stopping Their incursion. It could be possible that the sacrifice was no more than aquiring the same amount of power that the Fuel had brought: she became as Celestial as the Fuelweaver was Shadow. That way, like you said, Metheus would be bound to Lunar Power as the Fuelweaver is to the Shadows.

22 minutes ago, bruhmoment23 said:

This sounds rather odd, why would an entirely diffrent force inhabit itself inside a simple puppet? For all we know the "Lunar magic in Forge Trailer" you're refering to could be an animation effect without the intention to be speculated as such, unless of course there is a proof.

Personally, all things surrounding the Gateway, the Gate Realms and that "white energy" are a little fuzzy (meta: probably Klei had plans for more events expanding on that storythread but, as they have stated, the events were too time consuming). So, without any better explanation to what Charlie is doing, trying to find an explanation to a detail left unanswered isn't that bad, but it also begs the question "So what is important and what isn't?". If a little effect means so much, what else does? But well, the devil is in the details, so sometimes that tiny things that most would gloss over could mean everything... or they could mean nothing.

[h1mk]

6 hours ago, Charlie Dark said:

And I don't know if she's "the bad guy", she's most likely a demon pawn of "Them"

When I say Metheus/Charlie is a bad guy, I mean as an equivelant to Maxwell in DS.

This is a bad guy, reddish, twisted shadow. Maybe through being old or like, extremely corrupted? I don't know, but the Fuelweaver has this same red energy, and I think that Metheus is the torchholder. Difference is, Fuelweaver can be killed, (and was already) conquered by the survivors. That's why I'd call Charlie and Metheus the enemy. But we have no conclusion on what Them even is. It's possible, but I wasn't taking into account future predictions when I wrote this.

[Lucenix]

6 minutes ago, Blunderbuss said:

When I say Metheus/Charlie is a bad guy, I mean as an equivelant to Maxwell in DS.

This is a bad guy, reddish, twisted shadow. Maybe through being old or like, extremely corrupted? I don't know, but the Fuelweaver has this same red energy, and I think that Metheus is the torchholder. Difference is, Fuelweaver can be killed, (and was already) conquered by the survivors. That's why I'd call Charlie and Metheus the enemy. But we have no conclusion on what Them even is. It's possible, but I wasn't taking into account future predictions when I wrote this.

I agree that Charlie is, in fact, the new Maxwell, even though I believe in her redeemable nature, as we now know as a fact that: They are behind the Throne, she was corrupted by the shadows and the only "evil" about her is that she holds a huuuuuuge grudge against Maxwell. So, we now have the knowledge to know that Charlie herself is not the real, puppetmaster, although she controls us and sends us to do her bidding, when before we didn't know that about Maxwell. Speaking about Metheus, there is no evidence the Grue is Metheus.

[h1mk]

a lot of that seems a bit off topic from what you quoted

[Lucenix]

I'm trying to argue that Charlie is not really a "bad guy" as she's a corrupted being that's been transformed into Grue, the real monster. Also, Metheus doesn't have any real evil representation, at least not yet, as there is no real evidence to say that Metheus is Charlie's Shadow half, only speculation. The Fuelweaver is no real villain, although he attacks us, and Metheus certainly isn't one, at least we have no evidence to believe she is.

[Rafi.]

All the theories here are wonderful, can't wait to see what's going to happen next in the game ! ~

[h1mk]

1 hour ago, Lucenix said:

I'm trying to argue that Charlie is not really a "bad guy" as she's a corrupted being that's been transformed into Grue, the real monster. Also, Metheus doesn't have any real evil representation, at least not yet, as there is no real evidence to say that Metheus is Charlie's Shadow half, only speculation. The Fuelweaver is no real villain, although he attacks us, and Metheus certainly isn't one, at least we have no evidence to believe she is.

this is my conclusion, I am not claiming its stuff i took from JoeWs diary.  Also not sure if you read what I said completely

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

1 hour ago, Lucenix said:

I'm trying to argue that Charlie is not really a "bad guy" as she's a corrupted being that's been transformed into Grue, the real monster. Also, Metheus doesn't have any real evil representation, at least not yet, as there is no real evidence to say that Metheus is Charlie's Shadow half, only speculation. The Fuelweaver is no real villain, although he attacks us, and Metheus certainly isn't one, at least we have no evidence to believe she is.

I'm still confused about Charlie... in the new reign trailer she transformed again, and looks very human, her shadow half still exists to some extent though, and didn't the same thing happen to the "torch holder Metheus"? wasn't she also corrupted by the dark energy during the fall of the civilization? where's that mural where Metheus can be seen trying to hold back the "darkness"? 

[Lucenix]

That's fair enough, I genuinely think your conclusion has great parallels but there are some fundamental parts where we disagree, like your stance that the Fuelweaver says he wronged by killing the player and Metheus betraying the Fuelweaver, but those are still valid and interesting perspectives. In no way am I saying you're wrong, as I can't say I'm right. 

Besides those two points, your whole reflection about the theme of curiosity is really spot on and I agree with it 100%, as is the spiritual repetition: story is a poem, it rhymes.

6 minutes ago, Charlie Dark said:

I'm still confused about Charlie... in the new reign trailer she transformed again, and looks very human, her shadow half still exists to some extent though, and didn't the same thing happen to the "torch holder Metheus"? wasn't she also corrupted by the dark energy during the fall of the civilization? where's that mural where Metheus can be seen trying to hold back the "darkness"? 

This is my interpretation of the murals...

Spoiler

In the 3rd one we can see the Torchwielder (Metheus) holding the white power of her torch. I think that, in this picture, she's blocking the darkness and rejecting it (you can see her white eyes contrasted against the black eyes of the Ancient Fuelweaver). The shadows come from the single eye and the claw shape the shadows take suggests that she seems to be able to deflect them. What I see is her sacrifice because...

Spoiler

In the next mural, we can see the Gateway broken, destroyed, the shadows all broken and disconnected. Also, we see Metheus' broken shell, next to the corpses of some of her subjects. Unlike them, however, she doesn't have the "death symbol" directly above her mask. I think her sacrifice ended up closing the Gateway and stopping Their ingression and domination through the Fuel, but she survived through another form (like her subjects that went on to become Shadow Monsters) and the Ancient Fuelweaver, whose consciousness inhabits the Shadow Atrium.

Now... You could assume (by the black eyes of the mask, the corruption of the Tragic Torch and Charlie's monster controling the Nightmare Throne) that Metheus became the Grue, who ends up corrupting Charlie... and I do lilke that theory... but one single detail makes me question it: Metheus takes heed only after we complete her puzzle, which wouldn't fit in with Charlie and her Shadow Half merging into Queen Charlie, because they did it before the puzzle (right at the start of A New Reign).

So... I believe Metheus is somewhere else: as the Fuelweaver survived through the power he used to control, he controled Nightmare Fuel so he became the Shadow Atrium, so did Metheus. So the question lies: what power did she use? I argue it's the Moon's power, but it could be anything really.

Charlie becoming Queen Charlie seems like the Shadow's and the Human's goals aligning, but she's still in some part a monster (she still attacks us at night and she is behind all of the stuff introduced since A New Reign, where most of those stuff tries to kill us). Nonetheless, she is still somewhat human too, as can be seen in her lines towards her sister in the code.

Spoiler

That's all to say that: I am not sure what Metheus is, and I am certainly not sure what happened during Charlie's transformation. What I do doubt is Metheus being Charlie's Shadow Half... but it might be the truth.

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

Man... the theorizing... I also like your theories, Plus I have an other theory, a bit out of topic but wanna give it a listen?

Spoiler

since Charlie isn't really "shadow or monster" Charlie anymore and is the Queen of the constant she looks human too, I suspect that she could be using puppets to attack us at night. Think of it, she's the current puppet master, like Maxwell was using puppets to greet us in the singleplayer game. Plus doesn't it also make sense? if she is still the nightmonster, and lets say the survivors are scattered around the map can she really be at many places at once just to attack them at the same time? It would make sense in the singleplayer version, because you were all alone. But now something's fishy... again lets not treat this as game mechanics and theories conflicting, it will get even more complicated. 

What do you think?

[Lucenix]

1 minute ago, Charlie Dark said:

Man... the theorizing... I also like your theories, Plus I have an other theory, a bit out of topic but wanna give it a listen?

I just write for fun really... and to see what everybody else is thinking, so no I don't mind listening at all!

2 minutes ago, Charlie Dark said:

 

  Hide contents

since Charlie isn't really "shadow or monster" Charlie anymore and is the Queen of the constant she looks human too, I suspect that she could be using puppets to attack us at night. Think of it, she's the current puppet master, like Maxwell was using puppets to greet us in the singleplayer game. Plus doesn't it also make sense? if she is still the nightmonster, and lets say the survivors are scattered around the map can she really be at many places at once just to attack them at the same time? It would make sense in the singleplayer version, because you were all alone. But now something's fishy... again lets not treat this as game mechanics and theories conflicting, it will get even more complicated. 

What do you think?

It's a good explanation of the mechanics and it makes total sense! The shadow puppets might be magic that Maxwell learned through the Codex Umbra, making them almost exclusive to him (as he still is able to make them), but regular puppets, more like projections (Maxwell's perfect body greating us like you said), could be one of the new abilities of Queen Charlie, now that she's sitting on the Nightmare Throne. In regular Don't Starve, she could just stalk us around and as soon as night fell prepared to attack.

Now you put me thinking... what do you think of this?

Spoiler

Charlie's Shadow half has to have some set of abilities, like controlling regular shadows (the ones on the Nightmare Throne for instance when she freed Wilson). I always imagined her being able to merge with darkness, unmaking herself into like a cloak of pure shadow and basically teleporting through the Constant wherever she wanted as long as it was dark. She could also feel when someone is fully inside the darkness, like the Queen of the Shadows she is, so she could strike (she bites) anyone, anywhere. When Maxwell was on the Throne, he was stuck there, he couldn't even get up, so he could only project himself. Charlie has more control over the Throne, so it would be... well... cooler if she could roam around freely. Also, that could even be one of her perks as a playable character... or something similiar, free teleportation is broken.

 

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

1 minute ago, Lucenix said:

I just write for fun really... and to see what everybody else is thinking, so no I don't mind listening at all!

It's a good explanation of the mechanics and it makes total sense! The shadow puppets might be magic that Maxwell learned through the Codex Umbra, making them almost exclusive to him (as he still is able to make them), but regular puppets, more like projections (Maxwell's perfect body greating us like you said), could be one of the new abilities of Queen Charlie, now that she's sitting on the Nightmare Throne. In regular Don't Starve, she could just stalk us around and as soon as night fell prepared to attack.

Now you put me thinking... what do you think of this?

  Hide contents

Charlie's Shadow half has to have some set of abilities, like controlling regular shadows (the ones on the Nightmare Throne for instance when she freed Wilson). I always imagined her being able to merge with darkness, unmaking herself into like a cloak of pure shadow and basically teleporting through the Constant wherever she wanted as long as it was dark. She could also feel when someone is fully inside the darkness, like the Queen of the Shadows she is, so she could strike (she bites) anyone, anywhere. When Maxwell was on the Throne, he was stuck there, he couldn't even get up, so he could only project himself. Charlie has more control over the Throne, so it would be... well... cooler if she could roam around freely. Also, that could even be one of her perks as a playable character... or something similiar, free teleportation is broken.

 

Yes, she was given a "Free reign" and has much more control over the shadows than Maxy... Plus her powers could be growing more and I like your theory again, but 

Spoiler

even if she can teleport, could she really be that quick and teleport miles away to attack the survivors separately at the same time? Believe me, she's surely using puppets. It's just a theory, but I want to think that it could be a reality. And... the same theory got likes from one or two developers when I first posted it in an other thread.

 

[Lucenix]

Just now, Charlie Dark said:

Yes, she was given a "Free reign" and has much more control over the shadows than Maxy... Plus her powers could be growing more and I like your theory again, but 

  Hide contents

even if she can teleport, could she really be that quick and teleport miles away to attack the survivors separately at the same time? Believe me, she's surely using puppets. It's just a theory, but I want to think that it could be a reality. And... the same theory got likes from one or two developers when I first posted it in an other thread.

 

Yeah that's true, she would need to split up, and we've seen Maxwell pull off puppets before so it isn't a stretch. Adding up to that, she has a lot more control over the Throne, so her puppets probably are stronger.

Your theory holds up really strongly and is probably the truth... but the idea of being a shadow creature and teleporting in the dark is so coooooool...I don't think the Shadow-Half would want to give up her job as night patrol... she liked it too much!

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

2 minutes ago, Lucenix said:

Yeah that's true, she would need to split up, and we've seen Maxwell pull off puppets before so it isn't a stretch. Adding up to that, she has a lot more control over the Throne, so her puppets probably are stronger.

Your theory holds up really strongly and is probably the truth... but the idea of being a shadow creature and teleporting in the dark is so coooooool...I don't think the Shadow-Half would want to give up her job as night patrol... she liked it too much!

Hopefully one day... we'll get to free her somehow, and as you showed in the quotes "Make your jokes... I'll be seeing you soon..." - Charlie                                                                                                                                                                                  

I wonder what this means... does she want to see Maxy and the survivors in person?

[Lucenix]

1 hour ago, Charlie Dark said:

Hopefully one day... we'll get to free her somehow, and as you showed in the quotes "Make your jokes... I'll be seeing you soon..." - Charlie                                                                                                                                                                                  

I wonder what this means... does she want to see Maxy and the survivors in person?

I wish we can... or even maybe if freeing her is no longer an option at least plead to her humanity and try to bring her back, so she can help us undo all the harm They have done.

Now... you asked a really, really good question. What does she mean by her quotes directed at Maxwell, especially the one you showed, and "her plan" with Winona. I think there is a rabbit hole here waiting for us to dig it up. The problem I see and will have to research before being able to have a satisfying enough theory to answer you is the context of the quotes, as they have been removed ever since.

My gut tells me she's reffering to her "second act", whatever that is. Her New Reign as been established in the first, setting up her character and giving us clues to her Great Plan. I remember a post by Klei that said Charlie enjoyed working in the backstage but was ready for the spotlight... just some things to be prepared first. Wortox, in his deliberate frustrating fashion tells us...

Spoiler

...when the Celestial Tribute is inserted in a celestial fissure...

I think Charlie is ready to take front stage, and it has everything to do with her Triumph and her domination of Gate Realms... We are but her lapdogs, serving a Throne which doesn't tell us what it wants. We will see her, but only after what's to come, after the stage is set... whatever that means... There's still a lot to think about. And noone wants to tell us what the truth is.

Spoiler

 

[Lucenix]

23 hours ago, Charlie Dark said:

Yes, she was given a "Free reign" and has much more control over the shadows than Maxy... Plus her powers could be growing more and I like your theory again, but 

  Reveal hidden contents

even if she can teleport, could she really be that quick and teleport miles away to attack the survivors separately at the same time? Believe me, she's surely using puppets. It's just a theory, but I want to think that it could be a reality. And... the same theory got likes from one or two developers when I first posted it in an other thread.

 

Found this while scouring the wiki pages and I totally forgot about it... Charlie doesn't seem to care about the shadows but cares about you seeing her, so your theory holds up even stronger than before.

Spoiler