Ixenzo Posted November 21, 2019 Author Share Posted November 21, 2019 100 kg/tile naphtha and 10 kg/tile supercoolant, naphtha is on top. Notes: oxygen is created in the top right tile of the electrolyzer and pushed into the air tile to go to the bottom chamber. Hydrogen is created in the top right left tile, and is pushed up the ladder tile to collect up top. During electrolyzer's operation naphtha tiles slowly lose mass, and upon reaching a limit the leftmost naphtha tile is replaced with oxygen. The remaining naphtha tile has a mass of 39.9kg in all five cases. The leftmost electrolyzer has a wall to the left, and is still working, however currently (some time after the other five died) it has a total 192.5 kg of naphtha. At some point the rightmost electrolyzer had trapped an oxygen tile at ladder and a hydrogen tile was moving between the electrolyzer's top left tile and the air tile to the right of that. It seemed like it was deleting massive amounts of oxygen. Vacuumed the affected tiles and it ran fine until the naphtha ran out. Same thing as above, but with 10 kg/tile of water and pwater. The water tiles were deleted very quickly. The leftmost electrolyzer has 28.9 kg total of water on the top layer. Questions: where did the extra water come from? What makes the solid wall to the left seemingly reduce mass of some liquids, but create others? Moreover, how does this wall help run the electrolyzer for much longer and possibly permanently? Why equalize the temperature the gases with metal tiles, oxygen will get cooled a few degrees but hydrogen will go up to ~56? If it's for the generators, fine, but for LH2 it's just extra heat to remove. Quote During electrolyzer's operation naphtha tiles slowly lose mass Same with the water tiles. They're slowly depleted until the leftmost tile is gone. I think it's the hydrogen spawning in that tile destroying gram-scale amounts of water that didn't escape to the right tile. This slowly erodes the mass until there is enough hydrogen to resist water flowing back, hydrogen gets pushed up by the oxygen pressure from the left airflow tile (the oxygen air flow tiles of a neighbouring electrolyzer). The wall of the leftmost electrolyzer prevents this from happening, though I still don't know where did 7.5 kg of naphtha go or where did extra water come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAKCORE Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Ixenzo said: 100 kg/tile naphtha and 10 kg/tile supercoolant, naphtha is on top. Notes: oxygen is created in the top right tile of the electrolyzer and pushed into the air tile to go to the bottom chamber. Hydrogen is created in the top right tile, and is pushed up the ladder tile to collect up top. During electrolyzer's operation naphtha tiles slowly lose mass, and upon reaching a limit the leftmost naphtha tile is replaced with oxygen. The remaining naphtha tile has a mass of 39.9kg in all five cases. The leftmost electrolyzer has a wall to the left, and is still working, however currently (some time after the other five died) it has a total 192.5 kg of naphtha. At some point the rightmost electrolyzer had trapped an oxygen tile at ladder and a hydrogen tile was moving between the electrolyzer's top left tile and the air tile to the right of that. It seemed like it was deleting massive amounts of oxygen. Vacuumed the affected tiles and it ran fine until the naphtha ran out. Same thing as above, but with 10 kg/tile of water and pwater. The water tiles were deleted very quickly. The leftmost electrolyzer has 28.9 kg total of water on the top layer. Questions: where did the extra water come from? What makes the solid wall to the left seemingly reduce mass of some liquids, but create others? Moreover, how does this wall help run the electrolyzer for much longer and possibly permanently? Why equalize the temperature the gases with metal tiles, oxygen will get cooled a few degrees but hydrogen will go up to ~56? If it's for the generators, fine, but for LH2 it's just extra heat to remove. Same with the water tiles. They're slowly depleted until the leftmost tile is gone. I think it's the hydrogen spawning in that tile destroying gram-scale amounts of water that didn't escape to the right tile. This slowly erodes the mass until there is enough hydrogen to resist water flowing back, hydrogen gets pushed up by the oxygen pressure from the left airflow tile (the oxygen air flow tiles of a neighbouring electrolyzer). The wall of the leftmost electrolyzer prevents this from happening, though I still don't know where did 7.5 kg of naphtha go or where did extra water come from. I had similar run-ins with the rooms where I could pump all my excess gasses into, if the vent only had a single tile block on both sides instead of two high, mass of the liquid used in front of the vent would get deleted slowly, this could be a new thing since the recent updates. To get around this, have two tile spacing / high walls on either side of the vent or just more tiles of liquid on either side of the vent instead of single high tiles on either side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakomaru Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 I'm pretty sure you're right about the mechanism. That's the same way that bead pumps can destroy mixed gas. I'll upload a save when I can with some working cases and see if you are cursed. (I meant for you to put 10kg of supercoolant on the top tiles.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakomaru Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 Indeed. I cannot find any issues with mass deletion in the build as described. As you may be able to tell from the image, we have 20kg of total supercoolant on the top. The machine outputs all at once in this configuration - one time per second. This is unlike the common understanding of its function of outputting 5 times per second in a plus shape. When it outputs, it places hydrogen on the top left and displaces the supercoolant to the top right. It also outputs the oxygen above the top left at the same moment. The next frame 5kg of the 20kg of supercoolant flows back. The remaining 15kg of supercoolant then becomes 12.5, 11.2, 10.6, 10.3, then again 20 when another two tiles of gas are ejected. No mass deletion is occuring in this configuration for me. You can delete the top metal tile. I just used it to understand the system better. By the way, water on the top works just as well. We can tell that the sim has more than 5 ticks per game second because the 20kg and 15kg occur in the same 1/5th second tick. Perhaps when you are lagging heavily, these ~20fps subticks are omitted, which might be able to cause problems. For example, if your 20kg remains 20kg for the full 1/5th second, your hydrogen might be able to swap with oxygen. See what happens with this save file for you @Ixenzo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Mandor Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 16 hours ago, Ixenzo said: Hydrogen is created in the top right tile, and is pushed up the ladder tile to collect up top Are you sure about top-RIGHT tile? As far as I can see it appears at top left tile, and oxygen appears in a "circle of 1 tile radius" better known as a cross pattern. Everything after that depends heavily on amount of processor power and offscreen optimisation. In perfect scenario all oxygen appears just above hydrogen. After that liquid just pushes hydrogen to the left, and everything works fine. If you put hydrogen above and oxygen to the left, as on your picture, – than here will be many strange processes, attempting to move gases and liquids in confined space. Some of them, for example diagonal gas movement, delete minor quantity of liquid. Some of them (attempt to rearrange two gases and liquid, with same liquid nearby) cause minor amount of liquid to teleport left Also, if we have not enough processing power, all kinds of optimisation and attempts to skip some ticks, cause mysterious results. So, best design is to put hydrogen to the left, and oxygen on top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixenzo Posted November 22, 2019 Author Share Posted November 22, 2019 4 hours ago, Prince Mandor said: Are you sure about top-RIGHT tile? Top left, top left, didn't catch it, thanks. 8 hours ago, nakomaru said: I meant for you to put 10kg of supercoolant on the top tiles Um, it sinks either way. I even looked up the molar masses on the db and sure it was heavier than naphtha. 4 hours ago, nakomaru said: See what happens with this save file Aight, I'll get back to ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakomaru Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 On 11/21/2019 at 10:17 AM, nakomaru said: Naphtha will be different due to the high overflow mass, but most other liquids should perform the same at these masses. 10 minutes ago, Ixenzo said: Um, it sinks either way. I even looked up the molar masses on the db and sure it was heavier than naphtha. It does sink below naphtha. But the comment about naphtha wasn't related to the build. It was a comment on the overflow mass of naphtha, which is much higher than most other liquids so it will not flow at 10kg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixenzo Posted November 22, 2019 Author Share Posted November 22, 2019 12 minutes ago, nakomaru said: It does sink below naphtha I jsut played with your save and for a while I couldn't figure out how do you make supercoolant stay on top of crude until it just started to stay on top on its own no matter how I delivered it in the pit. What manner of witchcraft is this? Speaking of the save: Supercoolant's gone, both tile at once. Observed it slowly lose mass. I have an idea what might be affecting the whole thing, though, need to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakomaru Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 Crude should sink due to 500 vs 250 molar mass. But I checked with 10kg/tile of water and it works just as well for me. Since we get different results: Have you tried disabling all mods? Are you on windows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Mandor Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 21 minutes ago, Ixenzo said: I jsut played with your save and for a while I couldn't figure out how do you make supercoolant stay on top of crude until it just started to stay on top on its own no matter how I delivered it in the pit. What manner of witchcraft is this? Speaking of the save: Supercoolant's gone, both tile at once. Observed it slowly lose mass. I have an idea what might be affecting the whole thing, though, need to check. Why you again have hydrogen on top? Can you pause/unpause game to see exactly what happens. Or possibly it is just luck, if you start in vacuum, and hydrogen have enough computation time to exchange places with oxygen, it float up at first tick, and you will have this broken situation with hydrogen on top. Also, if by some optimisation oxygen spawns not in top of cross, hydrogen also can go up. What happens, if you prime this system with oxygen on top and hydrogen at bottom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixenzo Posted November 22, 2019 Author Share Posted November 22, 2019 On 11/22/2019 at 7:27 PM, Prince Mandor said: Why you again have hydrogen on top? The direction of gases depends on the design, particularly the placement of air and solid tiles. Priming is not required, it works from vacuum. Just as I thought, I have found the culprit. Without it, the test save was properly running on alt+z for two hours. The culprit is: Spoiler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakomaru Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 He did prime the system with oxygen on the top and hydrogen on the bottom, because that's the way it is on my save. The reason why hydrogen is on the top in that image is simply because the water lock has been destroyed. Congratulations Ix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixenzo Posted November 23, 2019 Author Share Posted November 23, 2019 17 hours ago, nakomaru said: He did prime the system with oxygen on the top and hydrogen on the bottom, because that's the way it is on my save I've built both designs and had them properly autoseparate from vacuum. If there are airflow tiles to the right, the oxygen spawning in the top right tile moves to the right and ends up wherever the airflow tiles lead. If the airflow tiles are to the left, the hydrogen spawning in the top left tile will move there and end up wherever the tiles lead. One can pick which way they want the gases to go. Edit: it seems like this was due to the culprit. Without it, you must prime the chambers if you want the hydrogen to go below. Without priming, hydrogen goes up and oxygen down, from vacuum. So, as long as you don't need hydrogen in the bottom chamber, priming isn't required. Left one was primed, right one was vacuum. I haven't noticed any gas mixing with or without priming. The displaced water tile flows back immediately after the spawned gas tile moves, so mixing simply doesn't have the time to occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6Havok9 Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Do any of these setups create more of a certain type of gas than they should? Or are they true to the tooltip? I'm tinkering around with some flooded electrolyzers and deoxidizers, but I don't want to end up with free hydrogen/chlorine. Also, any experience with reversed deoxidizers, with chlorine on top? Will they break? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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