Here is another Metal Volcano tamer design

[Steve Raptor]

Hey everyone,

I wanted to share my way on taming metal volcanoes using a fairly simple design.

I would be happy to hear what you think about it.

Here is my way for taming any metal volcanoes using a fairly straightforward method.

Would be happy to hear what you think about it.

[Lifegrow]

By running rails above neutronium/insulated tiles at the bottom, you're technically bleeding lots of heat into those tiles.

Conveyor rails interact with any tiles below them.

[Steve Raptor]

25 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

By running rails above neutronium/insulated tiles at the bottom, you're technically bleeding lots of heat into those tiles.

Conveyor rails interact with any tiles below them.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Still, there are only 3 bit of rails interacting with neutronium, and metal volcanoes don't generate a lot of heat in general for power production, so its a minor issue at best.

Also how come they bleed heat if neutronium has 0 conductivity?

Thanks for pointing this out though, Il keep it in mind for my future stuff.

[Lifegrow]

I just used the neutronium to explain where I meant. If you had ran the build for long enough before making the video, those insulated tiles would have started reaching the solid gold temps, which in turn will start cooking things outside the build.

You're also wasting energy in the cooling/diamond window area for the same reason.

The easiest solution is a 1 tile high vacuum below the lowest conveyor line.

Something I experienced in my last playthrough when handling 1400c igneous. 

 

[Steve Raptor]

32 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

I just used the neutronium to explain where I meant. If you had ran the build for long enough before making the video, those insulated tiles would have started reaching the solid gold temps, which in turn will start cooking things outside the build.

You're also wasting energy in the cooling/diamond window area for the same reason.

The easiest solution is a 1 tile high vacuum below the lowest conveyor line.

Something I experienced in my last playthrough when handling 1400c igneous. 

 

Ah, your talking about transferring heat to the insulated tiles.

I'm aware of that, the implications for this, especially for the case of metal tamers is negligible.

The goal here is to harvest metal, not produce power, so losing heat to the igneous tiles is not a concern really.

For the transfer of heat outside, it impacts very little. First, to get to the point of the insulated tile to heat up to high temperature, it would take like enormous amount of cycles, since the mass output of the metal is low and its getting instantly cooled by the steam.

Even if that happens, the heat transfer with oxygen outside would be extremely slow, since its insulated tile and oxygen, it would take another 2k+ cycles for the oxygen to even get warm.

I have this case happened already in my magma tamer. Magma transferring some heat to igneous rock insulated tiles and going up to 1400 degrees.

The oxygen outside ended up at ~60 degrees in a small radius around the spot, and that was after a very long time.

So while your reasons are very true in theory, in practical manner they don't have any major impact.

 

[Lifegrow]

Just now, Steve Raptor said:

For the transfer of heat outside, it impacts very little. First, to get to the point of the insulated tile to heat up to high temperature, it would take like 5000+ cycles, since the mass output of the metal is low and its getting instantly cooled by the steam.

Even if that happens, the heat transfer with oxygen outside would be extremely slow, since its insulated tile and oxygen, it would take another 2k+ cycles for the oxygen to even get warm.

I have this case happened already in my magma tamer. Magma transferring some heat to igneous rock insulated tiles and going up to 1400 degrees.

The oxygen outside ended up at ~60 degrees at the end, and that was after a very long time.

 

This is entirely untrue  

You should have mentioned it in the video regardless if you were aware of it. This is how accidents happen  

[Steve Raptor]

16 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

This is entirely untrue  

You should have mentioned it in the video regardless if you were aware of it. This is how accidents happen  

Well, I run both this tamer and my magma for 1k+ cycles in different bases for a very long periods of my career in ONI and I never had any funny accidents with this, .

EDIT: looking at my metal volcano tamer, the insulated tile temperature, after 700 cycles is 135 degrees, the oxygen temperature outside is 22C.

The mass of the gold from the volcano is too small compared to the mass per tile of the steam to heat up the tiles, more so with the fact that the gold touch the neturonium directly and not the igneous tiles, the steam mass is far greater then the gold and it will never heat up to anything higher then 130-140 degrees, the turbine destroys the heat much faster the heating of the gold.

Therefore the igneous rock tiles will never heat up to anything above 140 degrees even after infinite amount of cycles.

 

[Lifegrow]

I think you're missing my point.

1 hour ago, Steve Raptor said:

I would be happy to hear what you think about it.

Would be happy to hear what you think about it.

In your scenario, with your gas pressures outside, it may be fine - however, it will cook the external materials over time. Especially if those external gasses aren't being replenished/dispersed into other nearby gasses, i.e. an adjoining build - maybe a turbine build below, something like that etc. Imagine if somebody has a liquid lock below their version of your build filled with a small amount of water for example.

For that reason, I feel that if you were aware of this "feature" of your build when making the video, then you should have mentioned it in case somebody slaps one of these in their base and winds up cooking a load of stuff and not understanding why.

Cycle count is irrelevant - the 700 cycles you've mentioned is misleading, it'd happen in less than 10. The external temperature of anything in contact with those tiles would then begin to change accordingly. 

I'm only saying this because people will see your video and literally copy/paste it into their base. When they do that, and there's a mistake/flaw, it leads to people wasting their time building it, flaming you, spamming the forums, etc etc. It's just not helpful  I saw that glaring mistake straight away, others might not.

That's what I think about it, and I hope you take it on board as feedback rather than an attack.

 

 

[Steve Raptor]

42 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

I think you're missing my point.

In your scenario, with your gas pressures outside, it may be fine - however, it will cook the external materials over time. Especially if those external gasses aren't being replenished/dispersed into other nearby gasses, i.e. an adjoining build - maybe a turbine build below, something like that etc. Imagine if somebody has a liquid lock below their version of your build filled with a small amount of water for example.

For that reason, I feel that if you were aware of this "feature" of your build when making the video, then you should have mentioned it in case somebody slaps one of these in their base and winds up cooking a load of stuff and not understanding why.

Cycle count is irrelevant - the 700 cycles you've mentioned is misleading, it'd happen in less than 10. The external temperature of anything in contact with those tiles would then begin to change accordingly. 

I'm only saying this because people will see your video and literally copy/paste it into their base. When they do that, and there's a mistake/flaw, it leads to people wasting their time building it, flaming you, spamming the forums, etc etc. It's just not helpful  I saw that glaring mistake straight away, others might not.

That's what I think about it, and I hope you take it on board as feedback rather than an attack.

 

 

Not at all! Sorry if I sounded like being offended and going on the aggressive, i'm simply very passionate about the things I create.

Although I do not share your concerns (its why I didn't mention this in the video), I understand where your coming from and I respect that.

I greatly appreciate that you took your time and posted in this thread, a lot of people prefer to stay silent and this hurts the most.

So many many thanks and I will definitely take your feedback to heart.

[biopon]

Lifegrow's comment about the rails over tiles bleeding heat is spot on, even though I don't know if it matters over neutronium in particular. But more importantly I think, you're wasting an insane amount of power aquatuning oil. Oil has about 1/3rd of the SHC of water, and with the 14 degrees fixed cooling, you're only removing 1/3rd of the  DTUs that you would with water. I don't mean to be condescending but you probably don't notice it because gold is by far the easiest, you can practically cool it with an AETN. (But definitely with 2, I've done that.) You'd need major changes to get this to work with iron.

 

[Steve Raptor]

1 hour ago, biopon said:

Lifegrow's comment about the rails over tiles bleeding heat is spot on, even though I don't know if it matters over neutronium in particular. But more importantly I think, you're wasting an insane amount of power aquatuning oil. Oil has about 1/3rd of the SHC of water, and with the 14 degrees fixed cooling, you're only removing 1/3rd of the  DTUs that you would with water. I don't mean to be condescending but you probably don't notice it because gold is by far the easiest, you can practically cool it with an AETN. (But definitely with 2, I've done that.) You'd need major changes to get this to work with iron.

 

True, I'm aware that PW is more suitable for Aqua tuner efficiency due to its heat capacity.

The main reason I went with crude oil is to create a better buffer specifically for copper and iron (not really needed for gold) as I assumed players will build this for iron and copper volcanoes as well.

With crude oil you can create a better buffer for temperature in the heat exchanger and drive it all the way to around -30 degrees without risking freezing it.

This ensures that iron, which has 4x times the heat capacity of gold, will still get cold enough when it exits the exchanger.

The trade off, of-course, is that you pay for it in aqua tuner efficiency by not using PW.

In the big picture metal volcano don't need a lot of cooling and don't consume a lot of aqua tuner power, compared for example to magma volcanoes so its not a big of a difference.

Still,In this design, replacing coolant is easy, you simply de-activate the reservoirs and drain the coolant, then replace it with something else, so no problem there. I should have mentioned this in the video.

I would even suspect that PW might be able to handle all metal volcanoes at the end, I haven't tested it, but crude oil is the safest choice regardless.

Still, you made me very curious, I'm going to check this for iron volcano and see how it goes, i will post my findings when I'm done.

[biopon]

1 minute ago, Steve Raptor said:

I would even suspect that PW might be able to handle all metal volcano at the end

It's simple math. Iron comes out at 2500C, 300g/sec, .449 SHC. This is a long-term sustained DTU of 336,000, about 3/4 of a water-based aquatuner. running 24/7 But this figure doesn't account for the huge spike that you get when the eruption occurs, it's not coming at 300g/s but at 10kg/s. It's over 2x as hot as gold, and has almost 4x the heat capacity, so needs about 8x as much cooling.  Sandbox it, and design for iron, the others are easy mode.  

[Steve Raptor]

14 minutes ago, biopon said:

It's simple math. Iron comes out at 2500C, 300g/sec, .449 SHC. This is a long-term sustained DTU of 336,000, about 3/4 of a water-based aquatuner. running 24/7 But this figure doesn't account for the huge spike that you get when the eruption occurs, it's not coming at 300g/s but at 10kg/s. It's over 2x as hot as gold, and has almost 4x the heat capacity, so needs about 8x as much cooling.  Sandbox it, and design for iron, the others are easy mode.  

The one who needs to handle the spike is the heat exchanger, the iron can keep circulating in the rail loop for as long as needed for it to get to 130C (the temperature where it is re-directed into the exchanger).

In the end, the exchanger receives the iron when its at 130C, this is where the aqua tuner cooling comes in, and not before (that's the steam turbine's job).

So if the heat exchanger can cool all the iron from 130C to around 20C when it exits the system then everything is fine.

[Steve Raptor]

1 hour ago, biopon said:

It's simple math. Iron comes out at 2500C, 300g/sec, .449 SHC. This is a long-term sustained DTU of 336,000, about 3/4 of a water-based aquatuner. running 24/7 But this figure doesn't account for the huge spike that you get when the eruption occurs, it's not coming at 300g/s but at 10kg/s. It's over 2x as hot as gold, and has almost 4x the heat capacity, so needs about 8x as much cooling.  Sandbox it, and design for iron, the others are easy mode.  

Okay I just sandboxed it:

The volcano was iron with 17.4 kg/s output. 

Eruption period: 26 sec every 810 sec.

I used PW for coolant.

Steam per tile was 70 kg per tile (around the same as in my gold volcano in this video).

The only difference I spotted is that the steam in the chamber got up to ~155C, compared to ~135-140C for gold and remained hot for longer period of time, the turbine was a lot more active this time and generated larger amount of heat and power but nothing the aqua tuner couldn't handle (Turbine was operating at 40-50% capacity the majority of time).

The iron spent more time in the loop before cooling to 130C, and after the exchanger the entire batch came out at around 25C,

I did manage to find a flaw in the cooling of the turbine though, since the turbine only receives cooling when the aqua tuner is active and outputs coolant. The turbine lacked the cooling for long period of times due to iron spending more time in the system and overheated.

I solved this issue by replacing 2 insulated pipes with radiant ones:

Spoiler

I updated the video description regarding this.

Other then that it works fine for iron volcano and PW is enough to get the job done.

Thank you very much for pointing the importance of iron volcano, this pointed out the flaw that didn't show itself in the gold one.

 

[DrSugarFreeman]

6 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

I think you're missing my point.

In your scenario, with your gas pressures outside, it may be fine - however, it will cook the external materials over time. Especially if those external gasses aren't being replenished/dispersed into other nearby gasses, i.e. an adjoining build - maybe a turbine build below, something like that etc. Imagine if somebody has a liquid lock below their version of your build filled with a small amount of water for example.

For that reason, I feel that if you were aware of this "feature" of your build when making the video, then you should have mentioned it in case somebody slaps one of these in their base and winds up cooking a load of stuff and not understanding why.

Cycle count is irrelevant - the 700 cycles you've mentioned is misleading, it'd happen in less than 10. The external temperature of anything in contact with those tiles would then begin to change accordingly. 

I'm only saying this because people will see your video and literally copy/paste it into their base. When they do that, and there's a mistake/flaw, it leads to people wasting their time building it, flaming you, spamming the forums, etc etc. It's just not helpful  I saw that glaring mistake straight away, others might not.

That's what I think about it, and I hope you take it on board as feedback rather than an attack.

 

 

Perhaps if you sat a Pincha farm below the area where the heat bleeds out, it can be used to sustain it with minimal worry. Any Polluted Water pumped into the farm could be used as coolant then fed to the plants.

[Grimgaw]

10 hours ago, biopon said:

It's simple math. Iron comes out at 2500C, 300g/sec, .449 SHC. This is a long-term sustained DTU of 336,000, about 3/4 of a water-based aquatuner. running 24/7 But this figure doesn't account for the huge spike that you get when the eruption occurs, it's not coming at 300g/s but at 10kg/s. It's over 2x as hot as gold, and has almost 4x the heat capacity, so needs about 8x as much cooling.  Sandbox it, and design for iron, the others are easy mode.  

The big flaw in your math is that, if you manage to condense the iron, the debris are terrible at heating anything up and thus the spike is negated.

[biopon]

16 hours ago, Grimgaw said:

The big flaw in your math

Fair point, but the liquid iron needs to cool about 700C, or 1/3rd of the way down to the target, before it becomes debris. And you still need to deal with the debris itself, it may not be giving out enough heat to threaten your build, but you still need to deal with it. I don't see how this "negates the spike".

The actual flaw in my math was that I said it was over 2x as hot as gold - I took a long break from ONI so maybe it changed, maybe I misremembered, but both come out at around 2200 degrees now.

[Steve Raptor]

6 hours ago, biopon said:

Fair point, but the liquid iron needs to cool about 700C, or 1/3rd of the way down to the target, before it becomes debris. And you still need to deal with the debris itself, it may not be giving out enough heat to threaten your build, but you still need to deal with it. I don't see how this "negates the spike".

The actual flaw in my math was that I said it was over 2x as hot as gold - I took a long break from ONI so maybe it changed, maybe I misremembered, but both come out at around 2200 degrees now.

Hm, Not sure if you missed but I posted the results of sand boxing it with iron volcano a few comments above.

The purpose of the conveyor loop is to deal with the debris.

[biopon]

10 minutes ago, Steve Raptor said:

Hm, Not sure if you missed but I posted the results of sand boxing it with iron volcano a few comments above.

I did see it, and congratulations! I remember I struggled with an iron volcano when I started playing.