Angled or Slide Tiles

[zoarion]

So I have been seeing tons of liquids pooled up in places that they really should not pool up and I thought that if we had angled tiles(Like a tile that has been cut in half diagonally and could be rotated) that liquids could not pool up on at all that would be nice.

This got me thinking even farther and it could also help funnel gases upward or downward faster.

These tiles might also help handle pressures without taking up as much space because everyone knows angular bracing helps hold weight.

Then finally I think it would be amazing if these even allowed us to make slides for faster downward dupe travel times.

[AlexRou]

12 minutes ago, zoarion said:

So I have been seeing tons of liquids pooled up in places that they really should not pool up and I thought that if we had angled tiles(Like a tile that has been cut in half diagonally and could be rotated) that liquids could not pool up on at all that would be nice.

This got me thinking even farther and it could also help funnel gases upward or downward faster.

Sadly the problem is not the shape of the tiles, unless you have liquid dropping from directly above a angled tile it won't make any difference, even then I'm not sure that would work with the current simulation. The problem is the fluid simulation itself.

10 minutes ago, zoarion said:

These tiles might also help handle pressures without taking up as much space because everyone knows angular bracing helps hold weight.

Not going to happen purely with angled tiles, it needs the equivalent physics simulation.

11 minutes ago, zoarion said:

Then finally I think it would be amazing if these even allowed us to make slides for faster downward dupe travel times.

This too needs more work than simply adding a angled tile.

 

Just adding angled tiles is not enough for the results you are hoping for, it requires a ton of mechanic and design changes. Since improving the fluid simulation would negate your reason for angled tiles in the first quote we can discard it. But the other 2 could be interesting, however I just don't feel like they add anything that's worth the work involved to make them work well. Maybe if you developed those ideas further or if someone have a better idea that adds more to the gameplay...

[thewreckedangle]

i was just saying to myself the other day its a shame there aren't angled tiles.

if nothing else, it would look nicer than the hard minecraftian edges we have right now

[zoarion]

1 hour ago, AlexRou said:

Just adding angled tiles is not enough for the results you are hoping for, it requires a ton of mechanic and design changes.

I believe It is easier than you are thinking. The game already has everything it needs to implement this as is. It would be like a regular tile but;

1)  One half of the tile would work like a Mesh tile and you would not see this part in the game

2)  The other half would work like a regular tile but if the angled side is up then instead of increasing move speed by 50% it could increase downhill and decrease uphill speeds or not allow you up at all maybe?

3)  Then to make it look like they are sliding down the slide, when dupes hit the + 100% move speed they go into the fall animation or some new animation if you want to get picky.

4)  Finally for the angular bracing factor, this tile could just withstand the same force as a regular tile even though it takes half the materials or something.

[AlexRou]

8 minutes ago, zoarion said:

I believe It is easier than you are thinking. The game already has everything it needs to implement this as is. It would be like a regular tile but;

1)  One half of the tile would work like a Mesh tile and you would not see this part in the game

2)  The other half would work like a regular tile but if the angled side is up then instead of increasing move speed by 50% it could increase downhill and decrease uphill speeds or not allow you up at all maybe?

3)  Then to make it look like they are sliding down the slide, when dupes hit the + 100% move speed they go into the fall animation or some new animation if you want to get picky.

4)  Finally for the angular bracing factor, this tile could just withstand the same force as a regular tile even though it takes half the materials or something.

That will not work at all, the game deals only with full squares. To have it deal with half tiles would mean reworking the simulations and pathfinding. Sure you can have dupes moving faster but they will be standing on the full tile height, I am not even sure they are capable of changing the collision to be a half tile easily. Then there is the issue of fluid display so they have to tweak the renderer too.

The last point would not be balanced, if they take up half materials and have full properties then people will just use half tiles everywhere without care. 

[zoarion]

5 minutes ago, AlexRou said:

That will not work at all, the game deals only with full squares. To have it deal with half tiles would mean reworking the simulations and pathfinding. Sure you can have dupes moving faster but they will be standing on the full tile height, I am not even sure they are capable of changing the collision to be a half tile. Then there is the issue of fluid display so they have to tweak the renderer too.

The last point would not be balanced, if they take up half materials and have full properties then people will just use half tiles everywhere without care. 

I still feel like your still over complicating things;

1)  The physics in this game are not exact, the way liquids and gases move around the asteroid is ridiculous, you would have to be high to think its exact. 

2)  I have a degree in graphics programming and I don't see where there would be any issues with fluid display when it is already not functioning properly as is, hundreds of gallons of water would not pool up on a 1-2 foot wide flat piece of rock or climb up a wall, which it does everywhere!

3)  There are plenty of objects in this game that aren't squares or tiles, lots being smaller than squares/tiles which have their own collision handling and it would not be that difficult to implement another...

4) Of course there would be building requirements that would keep people from using half tiles everywhere, like if placed by themselves they have 25% the strength of a regular tile but when backed up against another full strength, this is very easy error handling stuff...

5)  It doesn't have to be 50% of the building materials exactly it could be 60-75% or something. It could easily be argued for more than 50%...

Lastly this is an idea I think people would like, help make it happen or don't but we don't need someone who is not one of the game's programmers telling us what can and can't be done. Add to the idea, improve it, find ways to make it work or we don't need your help, shooting an idea down is not helping...

[Whispershade]

Unfortunately gasses and liquids have no momentum. And there is no evidence the the simulation accommodates anything less than full tile movement of gasses or liquids. You appear to be making the understandable assumption that because things operate a way in the real world it must be modelled in the physics you know in the game. Unfortunately it is not true.

I say this not to tell you your idea is wrong or bad, but to understand what you are asking for is more complicated than you realize. As long as you understand what you are asking for, you can make your case from that position.

[Lifegrow]

23 minutes ago, zoarion said:

I still feel like your still over complicating things;

1)  The physics in this game are not exact, the way liquids and gases move around the asteroid is ridiculous, you would have to be high to think its exact. 

2)  I have a degree in graphics programming and I don't see where there would be any issues with fluid display when it is already not functioning properly as is, hundreds of gallons of water would not pool up on a 1-2 foot wide flat piece of rock or climb up a wall, which it does everywhere!

3)  There are plenty of objects in this game that aren't squares or tiles, lots being smaller than squares/tiles which have their own collision handling and it would not be that difficult to implement another...

4) Of course there would be building requirements that would keep people from using half tiles everywhere, like if placed by themselves they have 25% the strength of a regular tile but when backed up against another full strength, this is very easy error handling stuff...

5)  It doesn't have to be 50% of the building materials exactly it could be 60-75% or something. It could easily be argued for more than 50%...

Lastly this is an idea I think people would like, help make it happen or don't but we don't need someone who is not one of the game's programmers telling us what can and can't be done. Add to the idea, improve it, find ways to make it work or we don't need your help, shooting an idea down is not helping...

No, you're under-complicating things by ignoring a fundamental property of the game. That is the behavioural/state changes of gasses/liquids from tile to tile. This applies to  everything in the current iteration of the game...

How would gas work with these half tiles? Would the floating pocket of 2kg of oxygen that's previously floated around 50 full sized tiles suddenly lose half of it's mass and simply squeeze itself into half the space as it floated by? You're approaching this from a blinkered stance.

Also - this sort of nonsense :- "Lastly this is an idea I think people would like, help make it happen or don't but we don't need someone who is not one of the game's programmers telling us what can and can't be done. Add to the idea, improve it, find ways to make it work or we don't need your help, shooting an idea down is not helping..."

Well lets just say this kind of attitude doesn't go down well on the community forums as a rule of thumb... The idea was not being shot down, Alex was generously explaining why it simply wouldn't work with the current simulation.

[AlexRou]

I am not saying it can't be done, I am saying it takes a lot of work and your ideas are pretty weak to begin with. I am not trying to shoot down your ideas, I am just pointing out the problems I see with it so you can try to either debunk them or fix it.

Not everyone needs to agree with you, having someone against your ideas shows the devs the other side of the story so they can better decide. Also by having a chance to counter the arguments against your ideas mean your idea is clearer to the devs and maybe improve it in some areas.

Since you seem to be unyielding then I will take my leave here as I have said my peace.

[0xygen]

 

4 hours ago, AlexRou said:

Then finally I think it would be amazing if these even allowed us to make slides for faster downward dupe travel times.

this is easiest one, just let it "Run speed +50%" like Farm tile

 

[zoarion]

All I was saying is only a Dev can say if its easy or hard, doable or not. We don't know how hard it is to implement because we are not the Devs. I think it would be easy but I would love to hear the Devs opinion on how hard it would be to implement, not so much the regular forum goer's tho. I would like everyone's opinion of the idea itself tho or even ways to improve upon it and you are entitled to your opinion just not on something you don't know...

1 hour ago, Lifegrow said:

How would gas work with these half tiles? Would the floating pocket of 2kg of oxygen that's previously floated around 50 full sized tiles suddenly lose half of it's mass and simply squeeze itself into half the space as it floated by? You're approaching this from a blinkered stance.

Then with gases its a pretty easy math problem, each square can only interact with at most 8 other squares, the ones directly touching that square. So there would never be any sudden lose of half it's mass. It would always equalize among the other 8.  If there is a half square then the gases can only occupy half of that squares space, it will still be the 2kg of oxygen. So say you suddenly put one angled tile down; 1kg worth of oxygen would then get spread out among that remaining half a square and the other 8 squares of 2kg oxygen. Making the pressure in those 9 squares now approx. 2,117.6 g of oxygen. Then they would equalize farther and farther until equalization was reached in the room. It will always move around in equal portions with respect to the path of least resistance but this is all already in the game. Covered by the games existing gas movements or so I would assume. One of the reasons I say it would be easy to implement...

[Lifegrow]

52 minutes ago, zoarion said:

Then with gases its a pretty easy math problem, each square can only interact with at most 8 other squares, the ones directly touching that square. So there would never be any sudden lose of half it's mass. It would always equalize among the other 8.  If there is a half square then the gases can only occupy half of that squares space, it will still be the 2kg of oxygen. So say you suddenly put one angled tile down; 1kg worth of oxygen would then get spread out among that remaining half a square and the other 8 squares of 2kg oxygen. Making the pressure in those 9 squares now approx. 2,117.6 g of oxygen. Then they would equalize farther and farther until equalization was reached in the room. It will always move around in equal portions with respect to the path of least resistance but this is all already in the game. Covered by the games existing gas movements or so I would assume. One of the reasons I say it would be easy to implement...

I think you missed the key point from what I was saying. We're talking about a game that's currently based on variables per tile - "TILE" being the key word here, as in a fixed container of measurement - a constant size, from which the entire scale of the simulator is based off of. 

I used 2kg as an example as it's the amount of oxygen per tile that would cause a vent to over pressurise. Your solution of having the mass simply "disperse" into surrounding tiles falls down because of this. You can't simply have a rule that says "If Packet X of gas, enters angled tile A - then disperse 50% of Packet X into the surrounding tiles of tile A." It doesn't work like that. Let's follow your train of thought and imagine that one of the surrounding tiles - now at an increased pressure of ~2,117.6g of oxygen moves onto your angled tile, 50% of it's mass is dispersed. And then another slightly larger packet repeats the process. And another one, and so on and so on, etc. Owing to the highly random nature that packets move - you can't guarantee that your previously halved mass will "find it's way back home" - what you'd essentially be doing is applying very clumsy maths, to an incredibly convoluted problem. You'd have also just created a bug that allows a base to over pressurise, simply by having gasses come into contact with an angled tile. 

This is why the community will comment if you suggest something that yes, you may have enjoyed in another game, but when you apply it to a simulator like ONI and say something like "I believe It is easier than you are thinking. The game already has everything it needs to implement this as is. It would be like a regular tile", well that tends to provoke a discussion from people who maybe also have a background in coding/games dev. 

Again, I too am not saying this is an impossibility, nor am I saying it isn't something that i'd probably quite like for my own colonies - I'm merely stating that to imply something is simple, whilst at the same time demonstrating a lack of understanding of the current game, well that's generally not very insightful.

[0xygen]

I think Dev will need to divided all tiles into 4 Triangles, and each triangles need to be calculated what occupies. it makes Angles tile can be rotate or mirrored.

Game become alot heavier?

[Kasuha]

8 hours ago, zoarion said:

I still feel like your still over complicating things;

The argument isn't that it's impossible to implement. The argument is that it would be a lot of work for very little effect. Devs certainly considered sloped tiles early in development and the fact that we don't have them is because they decided that they are not worth the effort.

Dupes would have to have animations for traversing them, standing on them, sleeping on them.

Liquids would have to have graphics for staying on the tile while sticking or not sticking to other neighbor tiles.

The physics engine would need to work with special tile that can only contain half of normal amount of standard ambient element.

It would have to be defined what happens when the tile gets entombed in sand. There would have to be graphics for that. It would have to be defined what happens when that tile gets deconstructed while entombed. There would have to be animation for that sand motion.

All of that and more for the benefit of duplicants being able to traverse one tile height difference slightly faster.

[AlexRou]

After sleeping on it I thought I should give you solutions that can be implemented now with little more effort than the artwork.

If all you want is faster walk speed in one direction then they can add travelators, those flat escalators that don't go up or down. For faster downward travel maybe add a fireman's pole.

If you want blocks that take up less materials but are as strong as or stronger than current blocks, then add new materials that are stronger and a way to change how much material you use which affects strength.

Both of these completely removes the need for partial tiles and can be implemented with little to no adjustment to the system.