All research done at cycle 30 --- 8 dupes with high learning --- pros / cons

[ChickenMadness]

Just want to draw everyone attention to this strategy I've been testing. I'm seeing how efficient I can get past this stage of the game. Going for 'all research done at cycle 20' in my next play through and will make a new thread for that in a few days probably.

I already made another thread about this having finished all research at cycle 40. But I've started a new game now and done it a bit more efficiently. I'm very confident you can finish all research at cycle 20-25 with better scheduling and more efficient starting base layout than what I have done in the screenshot, and possibly 3 x +8 learning dupes to begin with. I started with 3 x +5 learning, two of which have research traits.

There is a trade off because you can either go for researching as fast as possible. Resulting in less even distribution of high learning stats among your dupes by the time all research is done.

OR

You can focus on Getting as many of your early dupes to the highest learning stat possible, before all research is done... 

which is what I try to do while balancing research speed as your resources are depleted quite fast (water).

I enjoy having 8 dupes with high IQ. Researching everything quickly is secondary as I want the learning stat experience to be evenly distributed between all my dupes so once a dupe starts to race ahead at 12 - 15 learning I lower their research priority so the low IQ dupes can catch up. I've noticed that when you put the low IQ dupes on research, they get more learning experience because they research slower. So having a dupe with high learning stat researching means you get less bang for your buck in terms of increasing everyone's learning stat. Which is the strongest skill in the game and is also a finite resource. Once all researches are done you can't skill it up anymore.
It means later in the game I'll have many dupes with high stats in everything because high learning increases the rate of stat gain for all skills. It just turns your dupes into monsters it's really OP tbh.

I started with 3 +5 learning dupes. I tried to pick a dupe with some learning stats every time a new one was available from the dupe replicator. I was unlucky and had to reject all the first time (the earlier you get the extra dupes the better). All of my dupes are scientists. 6 out of 9 are all on their way to becoming tenure scientists and thats when I put them into different jobs, to maximise the gaining of other skills through the highest learning stat they can get.

The 4th dupe had night owl. So I started staggering everyone's schedules. I had 3 schedules so that there would be workers awake at all times. This means I could keep 2 toilets without any accidents. And keep my base small and focus on researching. I could have lowered the amount of research stations and super computers to 3 each as well I noticed because by the time I had 9 dupes I would have 3 dupes researching at all times while the rest of the colony was asleep.

Having all dupes awake at the same time is inefficient because you would need 9 research tables to get everyone working at maximum productivity.

Near the start of the game I would stop research for 1 cycle, every 5 cycles. So that the dupes could get all the necessities done, like toilet cleaning, farming and resource collection. Once I had more dupes and staggered schedules I could just alt tab and wait till everything was done though.

The only downside to this strategy is that you seem to run out of water really fast. I'm not sure what the reason for this is. Probably having multiple super computers is really innefficient for water. And also because I delay building latrines, sinks, etc. until after all the research is done.

This is what my base looked like at cycle 31 when I was researching the last thing before the celestial stuff. After that is done I will deconstruct everything and build the base properly, skipping the awkward stages where you build low tech buildings and have to delete them later and rearrange buildings and rooms.

I don't research the beginning of the celestial stuff because in my last game I researched the super computer and novice portions and after I deleted the buildings I had an annoying pop up for the rest of the game telling me to build them again so I could finish researching.


TL;DR
Build bare bones base. 
3-4 each super computers and research stations
Only take dupes with high learning stats.
stagger their schedules so there is never a time when all dupes are asleep. Allows you to build less toilets and research stations etc. increases efficiency.
Make every dupe a scientist. Spam all dupes onto research for high learning stats.
Give them a break every 5 cycles to change toilets and farm ****.
profit.

Pros
All dupes have 10-15 learning at cycle 30
high IQ op.
10+ learning guaranteed for each dupe after they graduate from tier 2 science job.
finish all research at cycle 30.
delete all research stations at cycle 30 and focus on building your end game base skipping the ****ty early buildings

Cons
Uses up water very fast. Must take this into account.
Boring waiting for them to finish research
Having a lot of tenured scientists can mess with their morale but personally it's never been an issue for me. 

pic of base at cycle 31 and jobs board
Meep has 8 learning
All the scientists have 9 learning
All of the tenure scientists 12-13 
I have one dumb dupe next to Meep because they had 0 learning but +8 strength which was too good to skip lol. It was the 2nd to last dupe to enter the base, Meep was last.

Do with this information as you will <3 

[JukedByLife]

While I don't rush this hard for research, I do prefer picking dupes with high learning as they will pick up whatever role I put them in very fast and I can swap them around based on my needs.

[ChickenMadness]

7 minutes ago, JukedByLife said:

While I don't rush this hard for research, I do prefer picking dupes with high learning as they will pick up whatever role I put them in very fast and I can swap them around based on my needs.

Ye I'm mostly doing it for testing purposes to see how hard you can Min max this stuff.

Learning is 100% the best stat in the game for the reasons you just mentioned. It takes no time at all for dupes with high learning to surpass every other dupe in all the other stats.

I kind of see it as an exploit and that needs learning needs to be reworked tbh. After doing this testing I feel like whenever I start a new game I need to make a choice whether I want to play 'normally' Or 'cheat' and get a bunch of super dupes by doing the strategy in the OP. Also the fact that you have to trade 30 cycles of being kinda bored as well lol. It feels like bad game mechanics.

Having one dupe with +5 creativity is also important because it takes ages to increase creativity skill. And +5 is what you need to create masterpiece paintings.

[Fischer_L]

What  lowtech building you skipped? Battery and outhouse... planter boxes?

[JukedByLife]

I agree that learning is a bit OP but I wouldn't put it on exploit level. I too think it should be reworked or nerfed slightly.

As for creativity, you can get +4 from professions easily and I don't tend to use ton's of decor early on (or if I do its briars) so I wouldn't say it's a high priority.

[ChickenMadness]

Ye pretty much the plant boxes, some of the innefficient energy and oxygen buildings.

You can completely skip all of the buildings that require the use of algae. I just build 1 to begin with while i rush research. 
You can save alot of your starting biome resources (that you can't get in any other biome) for late game stuff.
Only downside is that water gets used up very fast by the super computers. In my first playthrough where I finished research at cycle 40 I ran out of water and immediately had to make everyone mine towards the closest ice biome and spam ice sculptures to melt into water lol.

I can build the fire pole really early instead of just ladders.

It makes it much easier to plan out the base. with late game stuff in mind. Like I will build bedrooms 4x3 sized bedrooms instead of a big barracks room for cots. And I can build all of the higher tier decor straight away.

I can skip the mesh hall and get a great hall straight away.

I can setup all the wiring the way I want it straight away. Usually I'm building stuff a bit at a time because I already have a big base and haven't researched the higher watt cables etc. 

Off the top of my head. 

Transitioning from outhouses to sinks and latrines can be awkward if you didn't plan ahead accordingly.

One of hte things I enjoy is building my base as tightly packed and as efficiently as possible so the dupes don't have to walk far. And it's hard to do this without all the research being done beforehand.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Fischer_L said:

What  lowtech building you skipped? Battery and outhouse... planter boxes?

 

20 minutes ago, JukedByLife said:

I agree that learning is a bit OP but I wouldn't put it on exploit level. I too think it should be reworked or nerfed slightly.

As for creativity, you can get +4 from professions easily and I don't tend to use ton's of decor early on (or if I do its briars) so I wouldn't say it's a high priority.

I usually get stress problems if I don't build the high tier decor and great hall, because I make every new dupe that enters the base into a tenured scientist before letting them do anything else they need that 20+ morale lol.

Only reason I try to have a +5 creativity dupe so I don't have to keep deleting the 'quaint' paintings while they train up.

[JukedByLife]

I see that makes sense. I was thinking from a standard game point of view where you wouldn't need such high moral that early.

[Fischer_L]

Hmm... you can pretty much get all the "important" building without research rush pretty early on. Almost all is a second tier research... So your argument about low tech building is null.. at least for me. You can rush research, use all your water and built spom your way, all "usual way" about same time. Expert players always plan their bases ahead, so it's not difficult to upgrade.

The only real benefit is to have several of high learning stat dupes.

[ChickenMadness]

1 hour ago, Fischer_L said:

Hmm... you can pretty much get all the "important" building without research rush pretty early on. Almost all is a second tier research... So your argument about low tech building is null.. at least for me. You can rush research, use all your water and built spom your way, all "usual way" about same time. Expert players always plan their bases ahead, so it's not difficult to upgrade.

The only real benefit is to have several of high learning stat dupes.

I find it difficult to plan the base and visualise it the way I want it to turn out without being able to place everything down and see the blueprints. Usually I count the number of squares wrong and then the room I built 20 cycles ago for future buildings isn't the right size and it's very tedious trying to make everything work lol.

Feels a lot smoother just setting up all the blueprints and getting my main base template built straight away so I can focus on more of the fun stuff.

It's quite boring waiting 30 cycles though.

For example I've got all my transformers in for each floor already for when I build the power plant at the bottom corner of the base.
And I'll have the ventilation system up at about the same time. Food and water aren't an issue during this playthrough because I planned out the research rush more efficiently. I have 2 pools of water left left. So I have a lot of time to get more water in the swamp biomes surrounding my base.
It just feels really smooth after I get past the research rush. (I just realised I don't have a +5 creativity dupe though so I have to wait till I can get all my paintings done lol). 

And yes having a large number of high learning dupes is the main benefit. Because lower level dupes extend the time it takes to research which means more exp gain overall than a single high level dupe that would increase research time exponentially thus lowering net exp gain to the learning stat. Multiple research stations is a 'flat research speed increase' Theres a fixed time where the dupes gain learning exp, every 5 or so seconds no matter their research speed. This is the biggest reason I do this strat, it's just a choice between whether I want alot of over powered dupes or not when I start a playthrough.

This doesn't have to be rushed, but I just want to get it over with so I can delete the research stations and use that space for my base layout. without having to do guesswork and planning in my head lol. It's kind of 'stressfull' for me personally especially when it goes wrong. This way I find relaxing because I just set up everything and press the play button.

[Technoincubus]

Well, learning affects all other skills, so catching up will be very quick

[ChickenMadness]

Another thing is you don't have to rush that hard. You can stop research and just carry on building for a few cycles when you have what you  want.

And you can wait till you have more dupes so you can 'exploit' the thing I mentioned where multiple dupes gain more learning exp than a single dupe..

[Fischer_L]

Hmm.. so you can distributed learning stat gain on all dupes, by rotating them through research job... You dont even need to rush it. Just change your researcher from time to time. It worth a try for my next base...

[ChickenMadness]

5 minutes ago, Fischer_L said:

Hmm.. so you can distributed learning stat gain on all dupes, by rotating them through research job... You dont even need to rush it. Just change your researcher from time to time. It worth a try for my next base...

yes once you have researched all of the buildings you currently want, you would put the lower level dupes onto research that isn't urgent. And you can put your first scientist onto a supply or cleaning job to increase their strength and speed. 

But if you use a low level dupe with a single research station it's going to take a looooooooong time lol. That's why I have multiple research stations. And the faster research time overall from is kind of a by-product.

[Fischer_L]

@ChickenMadness What was your pure learning stat gain (without given when created and job bonuses) and number of dupes?

[ChickenMadness]

This how it is at cycle 40. I'm at cycle 50 now thats the closest auto-save to when i finished research.

I can't remember now what all of the dupe's starting learning stat was apart from the starting dupes and the dupe that had 0 and 8 strength. 

So I will backtrack from their current learning stat at cycle 40 to give you an idea. There is a clear trend. it looks like +3 to each dupe on average

Nisbet started with 0 learning and at turn 40 has 5 learning including the bonus from apprentice scientist. And she was only researching for a few cycles being the second to last dupe to be recruited. So it's very effective imo. Just a few cycles of investment to take a bad dupe to an above average starter dupe. 

Normally when I use a single dupe they are around 24 learning by the time I've done the majority of the research (including tenure scientist bonus etc.). Which is less than these dupes combined. And a single dupe with that much learning is quite useless compared to many dupes with higher than average learning in the long run.

100 cycles is when you really start to see how over powered the dupes become.


So just averaging them since it looks like it's +3 on all dupes (I think meep probably would have been +2 and began with 5 learning)... 9x3 = 27. So it's a 27 overall gain. Not including the bonus they each get from the scientist jobs.
I think it was actually more than this as well because I have 12 dupes right now, I just took the rest out of the screenshot because I wasn't sure when I brought them into the base.

If you're trying this on your next playthrough you could probably test it without the research rush, to see how much gain you get. Probably more than this with a single research station and rotating dupes on it. that's what I would expect.

But you also have to factor in that you would have many tenured scientists vs a single tenured scientist, At the same stage of the game. Which is a huge difference. You don't need to specialise the dupes in anything else to begin with because the only thing you really need is a mining dupe to break out of the starting biome, and you can get that ability without mastering the job. And stress isn't an issue it's been at 0% for the entire game since I have access to all the decor stuff.

Also there are typos rofl in my microsoft paint maths screenshot. 8-5 = 3 for Catalina and Turner **

1 hour ago, Fischer_L said:

@ChickenMadness What was your pure learning stat gain (without given when created and job bonuses) and number of dupes?

 

 

[Sasza22]

I like how it says "current morale:1  mininmum morale: 20".

That strat is only doable on easy mode where you completely ignore the morale aspect of the game. In a normal one you`d have dupes breaking stuff and vomiting around the entire base before you`d get your first tenured scientist.

[ChickenMadness]

6 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

I like how it says "current morale:1  mininmum morale: 20".

That strat is only doable on easy mode where you completely ignore the morale aspect of the game. In a normal one you`d have dupes breaking stuff and vomiting around the entire base before you`d get your first tenured scientist.

Im trying it in a new survival game right now. I'll update. 

I was actually just thinking it was too easy and I wanted to try it with harder settings lol. Reason I restarted, it got boring.

[Soulwind]

I have trouble believing that you set up an oxygen system, refined metal, exosuit forge, docks, power, got to the surface, built a telescope, did the telescope research, etc.

All by cycle 30 without your dupes starving, baking, suffocating, etc.

Without using debug/ sandbox.

[Rebrait]

it´s a nice strats for a speed run, maybe you can build a rocket in the 100 cycle??

[Sasza22]

1 hour ago, Soulwind said:

did the telescope research

Now the space research requires to send rockets as well. Telescope only shows you the destinations. So it`s only possible to do the non interstellar research before going to space.