Petroleum Generator, heat, and math

[Carnis]

2 hours ago, WanderingKid said:

… I'll be back when I can adjust the design and test if that's the confusion.

Thanks for clarifying about the duplicant temp units, indeed the 200 modifier is gone, good riddance.

*

This thermoregulator that you have here is running 50% uptime, I had one like it. It works as is:

1) it takes a packet of hydro from the loop

2) it waits for the loop to process 1 tick, so it has a free pipe segment.

3) it cools hydro and pushes It into the loop.

*

If you add some empty pipe segments after the radiator, for instance by deleting the first 2 outgoing pipes, and snaking your gaspipe:

output-south-east-north-LOOP

then you have 3 free segments, where the processed gas can go, then the thermoreg will run 100% uptime, pretty sure it will also overheat then, so then you need tempshifts behind the regulator, or that + wheezes. Then your generator system should start cooling, as long as you don't have epic thermal mass in a large pW pool waiting.

[WanderingKid]

25 minutes ago, Carnis said:

This thermoregulator that you have here is running 50% uptime, I had one like it. It works as is:

1) it takes a packet of hydro from the loop

2) it waits for the loop to process 1 tick, so it has a free pipe segment.

3) it cools hydro and pushes It into the loop.

I know the stagger you're talking about.  That's not happening here.  You can test it if interested in a modified version that's confirming the cooling results.  There might be a stagger point if/when it gets down to target temp using automation, but since it's continuously running for this test, that's not a concern.  The other one didn't have stagger problems either.  You typically get stagger if you fill the system while it's running, then don't turn off the valves/remove the bridge before the system switches to one square further in the pattern while it catches up on the bridge side of the system.

That's how I mostly get the stagger result, the system itself is fine, it's the timing of when the bridge is used or not.

 

 

Sandbox 1 - Petro Cooling.sav

[The Flying Fox]

So, I briefly glanced through this thread so my apologies if this was already touched on, but @WanderingKid the thing that your design is missing that I believe someone was leaning towards is the heat of the petroleum, but that was partially dismissed.

 

But that is actually part of the problem, at least, the problem that I ran into in one of my older bases. (From last year, in fact.)  Here, I'm keeping all of these generators just above the freezing point of polluted water with just those 4 Wheezeworts.  (And if I remember correctly, the wheezes didn't work all the time, in fact.  Only most of the time, so there was some spare cooling to be had. Although the hydrogen gens ran a little warmer and the petro/natural gas generators didn't run all the time either.  So, kinda a wash.)

 

In any case, the heat of the petroleum is important because the petroleum generator has some storage in it.  If I recall correctly, it's either 20 or 50 KGs of petroleum and, as we know, the contents of storages can interact temperature wise with the environment around the building. (But not the building itself directly.)  So, yeah, imagine 20-50 KGs of petroleum sitting in the generator fresh from an oil refinery at around 75C will definitely throw off your results.

 

The fix is to throttle the petroleum into the generator so that very little petroleum sits in the generator at any one time, only what the generator needs to keep running.  So, less then 2KG/s feeding into it while it's running. That is what that 3 valve setup I have leading to the generator is for in the picture above.  These days I use an accurate valve setup idea that I got from @AnotherBoris for more precise throttling of gases and liquids.

[Slvrsrfr]

To all here, this has been a fascinating thread, I will need to re-read it certainly, but a question comes to mind about temps, buildings, and input resource temps. Something I have wondered about is if I build a coal plant with cold iron, and fill it with cold coal, will it stay somewhat chilled briefly. Say to charge a 4-5 deep large battery bank? Then either disassembled, or disabled. Would the combustion temps be clamped slightly because of the materials? I realize the window would be brief, but would it function as I assume? I appreciate any advice.

I assume this would bleed over into Nat Gas gen. which is my next step, but I'd like to better understand the principals at hand. Is there a bottom threshold at which the NatGas Gen will sustain combustion? I'd like to to input cool substances i.e coal, natgas, hy to keep the machinery running cooler. Thanks!

[Carnis]

One More thing, If you Make The generator out of iron, it Will heat & cool slower.

I think The actual heat output is More than 20kW because, 75% of the heat is absorbed by the generator, then the outputs come out at generator temp, so If it heats at specific heat of gold amalgam, The output can become very hot pW very cheaply.

[WanderingKid]

14 hours ago, The Flying Fox said:

In any case, the heat of the petroleum is important because the petroleum generator has some storage in it.  If I recall correctly, it's either 20 or 50 KGs of petroleum and, as we know, the contents of storages can interact temperature wise with the environment around the building. (But not the building itself directly.)  So, yeah, imagine 20-50 KGs of petroleum sitting in the generator fresh from an oil refinery at around 75C will definitely throw off your results.

It certainly can, and it's the very arbitrary value of 19.6 kg.  In my tests I was using a batch of petroleum I had spawned in sandbox at 20C, and was still climbing heat into the 60-70C range with where I was placing the cooling loop.  The new loop and cooling placement doesn't have the same issues.  I'm quite sure if I start bringing 300C petro into the generator and it sits there that my cooling system is going to have a time of it trying to cool down.

Regarding the valve system, that's only useful while the petrogen is running.  Once it stops, even the 2kg feed will eventually fill the pipe and keep it filled from then on.  It could probably be done with some element sensors and a liquid cutoff to keep it at the 2kg feed but the reservoir in the generator can't be detected.  Once the system fills to 19.6 kg, it's filled forever unless you start getting into some significant automation to run the generator for a certain period of time before it's allowed new petroleum and safety measures to make sure that timer doesn't run you out of petroleum and leave you there forever.

13 hours ago, Slvrsrfr said:

To all here, this has been a fascinating thread, I will need to re-read it certainly, but a question comes to mind about temps, buildings, and input resource temps. Something I have wondered about is if I build a coal plant with cold iron, and fill it with cold coal, will it stay somewhat chilled briefly. Say to charge a 4-5 deep large battery bank? Then either disassembled, or disabled. Would the combustion temps be clamped slightly because of the materials? I realize the window would be brief, but would it function as I assume? I appreciate any advice.

I assume this would bleed over into Nat Gas gen. which is my next step, but I'd like to better understand the principals at hand. Is there a bottom threshold at which the NatGas Gen will sustain combustion? I'd like to to input cool substances i.e coal, natgas, hy to keep the machinery running cooler. Thanks!

I have a test case using kilns in that particular discussion instead of the generator, but the results I'd expect to be roughly the same.  For a brief bit the coal keeps the temperatures down, but eventually the ambient heat takes over as the coal gets used up.  Using a sweeper and incredibly cold coal can offset this somewhat, but the kiln is just a beast.

NatGas can be burnt at any temperature above where it turns into liquid methane, there is no lower bound.  This is why many, including me, load up the geysers with a couple of wheezeworts and use it as a cooling system before it's shoved into the generator.

10 hours ago, Carnis said:

One More thing, If you Make The generator out of iron, it Will heat & cool slower.

I think The actual heat output is More than 20kW because, 75% of the heat is absorbed by the generator, then the outputs come out at generator temp, so If it heats at specific heat of gold amalgam, The output can become very hot pW very cheaply.

Doesn't the same idea apply though, that if you cool down the generator cheaply you get much more expensive cooling out of the PH2O?

[Slvrsrfr]

as I failed to mention in the reply earlier, which I overlooked(it was quite early), I had/have no intention of derailing the thread. As you were, please continue. It's just the subject had been brushed upon, and I blurted, which is typical. But I do appreciate the response. I hope you won't mind I copy/pasted your point for me as a reference. The discussion is excellent, you guys, please carry on! Don't mind me, I'll try to keep it to a minimum.

[The Flying Fox]

6 hours ago, WanderingKid said:

...

Regarding the valve system, that's only useful while the petrogen is running.  Once it stops, even the 2kg feed will eventually fill the pipe and keep it filled from then on.  It could probably be done with some element sensors and a liquid cutoff to keep it at the 2kg feed but the reservoir in the generator can't be detected.  Once the system fills to 19.6 kg, it's filled forever unless you start getting into some significant automation to run the generator for a certain period of time before it's allowed new petroleum and safety measures to make sure that timer doesn't run you out of petroleum and leave you there forever.

...

Ahh, but you miss that I called it an Accurate Valve.  This is for a reason.  This is the result of me flicking the atmo sensor off several times.  Basically no petroleum buildup inside the petroleum generator.  The petroleum generator does not add to its storage while it's off, so some packets of petroleum do build up in the pipe.  (Basically the packets that were already in the pipe before the shut-off valve shuts off.) 

 

 

There is only a slight lag between 1 to 2 seconds of the shut-off valve going off to when the throttled liquid valve stops flowing.  The excess packets drain away from the liquid valve towards that lower bridge and, since the input of the top bridge is directly on the line, it can't put anymore liquid into it when the loop backs up.  The result is that a simple filter gate with a 1 to 2 second delay on it heading to the shut-off valve is more then enough to keep the storage of the petroleum generator nearly always empty.

 

This can also work for the natural gas/hydrogen generators as well, but their storages are pretty tiny in comparison that it's generally not worth it.

[trukogre]

@wanderingkid   Ah, understood.  Totally makes sense, I think my frustration with pipes in general was blinding me a bit.

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

On 2018/9/13 at 9:23 AM, Carnis said:

There is a x 200 hidden modifier.

No business with 200 multiplier.

On 2018/9/13 at 12:14 PM, Carnis said:

IMO generator deletes input temperature and outputs @generator temp.

Partly right. Don't forget petrol is first stored in building and then be consumed. So petrol will first transfer its heat to generator and then be deleted. However, it doesn't mean cool petrol is a good idea.

If you don't mind a short pause,@The Flying Fox's solution is great.

If you mind, just make your cold source more powerful.

On 2018/9/13 at 1:05 PM, psusi said:

On 2018/9/13 at 9:23 AM, Carnis said:

How hot are the tempshift? Delete them. Radiant pipes & buildings do not interact with tempshifts at all.

I'm pretty sure that is not true.  I have used tempshift plates to increase the heat transfer between thermo regulators and radiant pipes, and between radiant pipes and ice in a cold biome

It is true.

On 2018/9/13 at 5:24 AM, WanderingKid said:

Now, here's my confusion.  In theory, almost another 60% of the heat gained by the generator is theoretically covered by the thermo regulator, in 33.2kBTU - 20 kBTU.  The leftover price of 12 kBTU (roughly) for our Thermo Generator should either be being distributed to additional area around the petro generator, or be recycled into a colder start point on its next loop.   However, this is not happening.  I've heat positive, and I can't figure out what I'm missing.

Heat balance only means your system won't become hotter and hotter, but doesn't mean your heat source will as cold as your cold source.

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Summary

Anyway, the simplest solution is make your cold source more powerful.