Delete opportunity for duplicants shuffle

[Fenixix]

Why even introduce random stats and traits if people can shuffle untill they get what they want. I understand that KLEI may have plans for this in the future but if they don't i suggest different approaches: 
1. deleting random traits and attributes whatsoever so that all dupes start clean and 0 attributes. (and for the sake of progression feeling state the limit so that players have that strive to get to it. in other words 3 simple digits and sign - 0/10). This makes shuffle not needed
2. taking away the possibility of shuffle. This makes random attributes and traits a thing.

Atm this mechanic only produce frustration with shuffling. Don't add this mechanic jsut for the sake of RPG feeling aka progression feeling. The progression feeling is already in the game in a form of discovering new materials and developing technologies. It's a simple evolution in rpg genere. At first we had diablo 2 with that boring points you could put into your stats (strenght, agility etc.) but now we have diablo 3 with much more interesting version of progression where you can choose one of 3 effects for a skill. Occupation update is cool with the priority feaatures it gives AND also that more itneresting progression - the perks that you get at certain milestones. For instance firm material mining, no debuffs in exosuit etc. I am all for attributes but what making attributes RANDOM actually add to the game? I think it would be more satisfying if you start from 0 and then slowly progress towards the maximum rather than getting random attributes. What are your thoughts guys? Any ideas to expand this topic?

[blash365]

You'd be surprised how many people would debate your stance on the "better" diablo 3 progression system.

[Fenixix]

1 hour ago, blash365 said:

You'd be surprised how many people would debate your stance on the "better" diablo 3 progression system.

Maybe it's bad example but anyway, what do you think about the idea of deleting it or making shuffle impossible?

[blash365]

Random starting stats create different "roles" that certain dupes are suited for.

This encourages players to think about how to employ their dupes (do i start with a digger or a farmer? do i want someone who learns fast or runs fast? etc.). I think it is a better concept that uniformly 0 on every stats.

The mere fact that you are saying yourself that you are constantly reshuffling, should tell you that you are also making decisions based on those stats.

[zerat]

At the very least, some sanity checks would need to be added if this was done. You could, for instance, get three dupes who can't dig, among other disastrous combinations.

[Oozinator]

11 hours ago, Fenixix said:

1. .
2. .

[Fenixix]

57 minutes ago, blash365 said:

Random starting stats create different "roles" that certain dupes are suited for.

This encourages players to think about how to employ their dupes (do i start with a digger or a farmer? do i want someone who learns fast or runs fast? etc.). I think it is a better concept that uniformly 0 on every stats.

The mere fact that you are saying yourself that you are constantly reshuffling, should tell you that you are also making decisions based on those stats.

Good arguments. You say that i shuffle for certain things and that is a decisionmaking, okay but the thing is that i will shuffle untill i get the stats that i need so what is the point to make it shuffable and not just let me do it with few clicks? maybe give me 10 points at the beggining and i will put them where i want. It deletes this unfun shuffling between what stats i got on my dupes and what i want to get. Seems to me as a useless process(i mean specifically the area between what i got and what i want, i will get to what i want anyway so why make is so troublesome with shuffling and not jsut giving me other ways to do it). You can say taht okay it works for attributes but what about negative\positive traits? well, for htat to work you need to make dupes unshuffable or at least make it so that traits are unshuffable.

46 minutes ago, Oozinator said:

I would feel bad recieving such an answer but i like bears.

[blash365]

The shuffling makes you decide:

do i like this stats or do i want to continue for better stats (which could be worse for quite a few shuffles). that is - at least on some level - decisionmaking and forces you to a certain extend not to use the same stats in every game.

It is also quite easily implemented (randoming stats is already there, now we only need a button, done). So unless you have a really good alternative, i'd say keep the first 20 seconds of the game as they are and focus on the rest of it.

[TheExceed]

The shuffling allows players to play how they want to play. Everyone has their own way of starting and their own process of deciding whether dupes are appropriate or not for them. Removing them would push people down the same exact path. If all dupes were shuffle-able. Then I would agree but its only the first three dupes. Really isn't that big of an issue. Maybe a setting for some to disable it.. but then again the player just needs to pick the first dupes they get so a setting wouldn't matter since both situations would be voluntary. I think leaving it how it is, is the best course of action.

[Fenixix]

42 minutes ago, TheExceed said:

The shuffling allows players to play how they want to play. Everyone has their own way of starting and their own process of deciding whether dupes are appropriate or not for them. Removing them would push people down the same exact path. If all dupes were shuffle-able. Then I would agree but its only the first three dupes. Really isn't that big of an issue. Maybe a setting for some to disable it.. but then again the player just needs to pick the first dupes they get so a setting wouldn't matter since both situations would be voluntary. I think leaving it how it is, is the best course of action.

All dupes are shuffable. After first three initial dupes when you are "inside the game" you just need to reject all dupes and wait for new ones. My suggested system (on which i do not insist, just an idea) does same. It allows players to play how they want. As mentioned previously: do i want to start with farmer + diggers or just diggers or whatever else.
 

1 hour ago, blash365 said:

The shuffling makes you decide:

do i like this stats or do i want to continue for better stats (which could be worse for quite a few shuffles). that is - at least on some level - decisionmaking and forces you to a certain extend not to use the same stats in every game.

It is also quite easily implemented (randoming stats is already there, now we only need a button, done). So unless you have a really good alternative, i'd say keep the first 20 seconds of the game as they are and focus on the rest of it.

For the most part, as i understand it, you repeat your previous comment, same answer, read comment above. As for not to use the same stats in every game would be a good argument but i don't think that the fun you get from diversity in a form of +6 digging skill duplicant in one playthrough and +8 digging skill duplicant in another is a good trade off for a shuffling struggle(because it does not provide any noticeable difference in a fun you are getting).

[TheExceed]

6 minutes ago, Fenixix said:

All dupes are shuffable. After first three initial dupes you just need to reject all dupes and wait for new ones. My suggested system (on which i do not insist, just an idea) does same. It allows players to play how they want. As mentioned previously: do i want to start with farmer + diggers or just diggers or whatever else.

Sure you can keep rejecting but that again is how some people wanna play. I have seen someone pick a dupe every 3 cycles. Like I said, I think right now is the best set up for allowing people to play how they want. With some randomness thrown in.

[Fenixix]

18 minutes ago, TheExceed said:

Sure you can keep rejecting but that again is how some people wanna play. I have seen someone pick a dupe every 3 cycles. Like I said, I think right now is the best set up for allowing people to play how they want. With some randomness thrown in.

I think golden middle is to make it optional. I am a type of person that will shuffle untill i get what i want so i would rather have an option enabled for manual attribute assignment. If you are a type of person that prefer to deal with random stats and think it's very fun you can just leave it as it is and not shuffle for diver's lungs or +8 to attribute if you want. I am just saying that there are players that shuffle for good attributes and since it's inevitable that they will get the stats they want from the shuffle what is the point to get through that process whatsoever and save time. Let people to distribute points as they want. You can leave traits randomized still.

[TheExceed]

2 hours ago, Fenixix said:

I think golden middle is to make it optional. I am a type of person that will shuffle untill i get what i want so i would rather have an option enabled for manual attribute assignment. If you are a type of person that prefer to deal with random stats and think it's very fun you can just leave it as it is and not shuffle for diver's lungs or +8 to attribute if you want. I am just saying that there are players that shuffle for good attributes and since it's inevitable that they will get the stats they want from the shuffle what is the point to get through that process whatsoever and save time. Let people to distribute points as they want. You can leave traits randomized still.

If you want to edit your attributes then just use the geyser and dupe edit side that was created. You upload your save and can change your dupes stats, traits and jobs and can change geyser type and all relative stats.

[Smuch]

It could be a fun option for people who have mastered the game would love an extra callenge, same way some games have ironman  ut it certainly shouldn't be the default.

[Juicearific]

Realistically? There's no reason to get rid of shuffles. If I create a world, and I don't get the starting dupes... I'll just make it again? It's just a more annoying reshuffle. You could give a limited amount of reshuffles, but once again - wouldn't I just create a new round to reset my reshuffles? There's no major benefit to it. Just leave it as is - if you really want to challenge yourself, don't reshuffle.

[blash365]

16 hours ago, Fenixix said:

(because it does not provide any noticeable difference in a fun you are getting).

You forgot to add "... to me". Because clearly you are just talking about your personal taste and not objective facts.

And since we are down to taste, you might have noticed that alot of other people have different tastes. Some of which have contrasted your taste in this thread.

If you look around the interweb, you will find that tons of games can be reduced down to the fact that you are getting a +1, +2, +3 version of the item you are already wearing. Nothing changes, just one little number, sometimes too small to be even noticable. Still many enjoy this "progression". diablo i (even in franchises we like the digit increase) - you know, the game you mentioned - comes to mind here.

By questioning randomized dupe stats, because you dont see any enjoyment in that progress, you question an entire DOMAIN of games that has been around - be it on harddrives or pen and papers - for almost 50 years.

 

There is also a gambling aspect to it, which has been around for quite some longer time than 50 years.

 

 

To make things easire:

How to you want to play? On a conceptual level.

And what is preventing you from doing so in the current system?

 

On second thought: Maybe a way of compromise is an option here. (note that i might branch an extra thread of this idea, if i get positive feedback. i dont want to highjack your thread)

Once players reach certain "goals" in oni, they unlock some boons for future bases (like Prison architect allowing you to keep your networth for your next prison).

Possible goals (achieving goals might imply not being allowed to do save-loading exploiting):

• reach cycle <insert very high number>
• reach cycle <insert moderate number> without any dupes dying
• have a colony with <insert high number> dupes
• unlock the entire tech tree

All should be achievable with moderate effort (to prevent frustration), but require at least some planning (see armello unlocks).

Naturally they could all be linked with steam achievements.

 

Possible boons to unlock:

• 4th starting dupe
• allowing to manually assign dupes/feets of some (not all!) of your starting dupes
• unlock tier 1 technology from the start

[Fenixix]

9 hours ago, Juicearific said:

Realistically? There's no reason to get rid of shuffles. If I create a world, and I don't get the starting dupes... I'll just make it again? It's just a more annoying reshuffle. You could give a limited amount of reshuffles, but once again - wouldn't I just create a new round to reset my reshuffles? There's no major benefit to it. Just leave it as is - if you really want to challenge yourself, don't reshuffle.

I also suggested the system where you have 10 points(or whatever amount the balance demands) that you can manually distribute as an option to avoid that reshuffle.

[Fenixix]

1 hour ago, blash365 said:

You forgot to add "... to me". Because clearly you are just talking about your personal taste and not objective facts.

And since we are down to taste, you might have noticed that alot of other people have different tastes. Some of which have contrasted your taste in this thread.

If you look around the interweb, you will find that tons of games can be reduced down to the fact that you are getting a +1, +2, +3 version of the item you are already wearing. Nothing changes, just one little number, sometimes too small to be even noticable. Still many enjoy this "progression". diablo i (even in franchises we like the digit increase) - you know, the game you mentioned - comes to mind here.

By questioning randomized dupe stats, because you dont see any enjoyment in that progress, you question an entire DOMAIN of games that has been around - be it on harddrives or pen and papers - for almost 50 years.

 

There is also a gambling aspect to it, which has been around for quite some longer time than 50 years.

 

 

To make things easire:

How to you want to play? On a conceptual level.

And what is preventing you from doing so in the current system?

 

On second thought: Maybe a way of compromise is an option here. (note that i might branch an extra thread of this idea, if i get positive feedback. i dont want to highjack your thread)

Once players reach certain "goals" in oni, they unlock some boons for future bases (like Prison architect allowing you to keep your networth for your next prison).

Possible goals (achieving goals might imply not being allowed to do save-loading exploiting):

• reach cycle <insert very high number>
• reach cycle <insert moderate number> without any dupes dying
• have a colony with <insert high number> dupes
• unlock the entire tech tree

All should be achievable with moderate effort (to prevent frustration), but require at least some planning (see armello unlocks).

Naturally they could all be linked with steam achievements.

 

Possible boons to unlock:

• 4th starting dupe
• allowing to manually assign dupes/feets of some (not all!) of your starting dupes
• unlock tier 1 technology from the start

I understand what are different tastes. I think it's objectively no difference in fun you get from playthrough with +6 of the stat and +8. Give me an example of the game that give you +1\2\3 to main stat. In those kind of games that you mention you don't just get +to stat you get enterily new item that give you that stat and it's different feeling because there is a whole process of getting that item involved. in our case it's shuffle, what is more fun?

I am not questioning randomized dupe stats i am saying that having randomized stats AND reshuffle is frustrating for players that do shuffle for beter stats, since they will inevitable shuffle for good stats and get them anyway why not make the process easier and give points to distribute among dupes or any other systems which does not involve reshuffling. You can make this optional. For these players trait system is non existant because you can shuffle for good traits anyway so bad traits are non factor in the game and give no gameplay. To avoid that you may take away shuffle completely. I am bringing up this problems and suggesting what may be solutions but other solutions are also welcome.
Gambling effect is a thing ofcourse but as you said yourself there are different tastes(which is not always a good argument since it can be used both ways).
Don't know for bonuses in future games BUT many people enjoy achievements(amount of players that "hunt" achievements in World of Warcraft) and that system have chances to be implemented. It's fairly easy to create achievement system and they don't have all to be easy. There may be all difficulty levels achievements.
How do i want to play on conceptual level? I don't know. I will understand when i see the game's gameplay(as Steve Jobs said: "people don't know what they want untill they see it" = )  I am not expecting anything and just wait what developers ideas get us to. In this thread i only questions what i think can be upgraded and it is the shuffle system.

[blash365]

51 minutes ago, Fenixix said:

Give me an example of the game that give you +1\2\3 to main stat.

The entire ad&d franchise.

51 minutes ago, Fenixix said:

as Steve Jobs said: "people don't know what they want untill they see it"

Steve Jobs also lets poor people work in factories in which they get poisoned by chemicals and then sells their product for exorbitant sums of money.

If you want to take him and his customers as role models, feel free to do so.=)

[Fenixix]

52 minutes ago, blash365 said:

The entire ad&d franchise.

Steve Jobs also lets poor people work in factories in which they get poisoned by chemicals and then sells their product for exorbitant sums of money.

If you want to take him and his customers as role models, feel free to do so.=)

Let's go through thought experiment. If person that tortured and killed 2 billion people comes up with cure for cancer it is still cure for cancer. Extrapolate (i hope i used the word correctly). In other words a completely bad person can say smth and you should process it without thinking about the person. For example if you are on a lecture and the lecturer have an annoying voice\accent, have awful clothes and you decide to pay attention to that instead of what he says and leave.Or if a guy comes up with a solution but noone wants to hear him cuz he is homeless. You may miss alot of good information with that mindset. It was your guess that i take him as a role model. I do not. But i admit some things he said i consider smart and use the formulations sometimes.

[blash365]

Sugarcoating the words "people are too dumb to know what they want (but you do)" is not smart. It's arrogant and borderline narcistic.

[Fenixix]

3 hours ago, blash365 said:

Sugarcoating the words "people are too dumb to know what they want (but you do)" is not smart. It's arrogant and borderline narcistic.

No that is not what i was trying to say. When i am going to buy clothes i can not tell what i will buy before i actually go to the market and see what is there. This is because universe carry more information than you carry inside you and that is always the case. This is what i meant. The thing is when people type something they have one thing in mind and not always you can cause same ideas you had to pop in their minds while they are reading. That is why we need to ask for clearification if we are not certain. I did not mean any of what you said. It doesn't even matter what words mean to you when you read them as what person was thinking while typing them. Communication is like that. You have idea then you convert it into words and you hope that while reading someone will have same idea as you did but that not always happen.

[Juicearific]

13 hours ago, Fenixix said:

I also suggested the system where you have 10 points(or whatever amount the balance demands) that you can manually distribute as an option to avoid that reshuffle.

Sure, but to what point? There's even less variety than there is now. If something like that is added, I'll just always put the points in the same distribution every game (which is all on one dupe and all into research, btw, then I'll get rid of the other two later probably). Why put in effort to end up with a system that is less unique? as it stands, you reroll for a bit and it's like a gamble that's free. Do I want to keep my +4 research, who also happens to be +2 digging and +2 construction? Or do I reroll for someone with +6 learning? etc.

I don't want it to change because I think it's fine the way it is.

[Fenixix]

11 hours ago, Juicearific said:

Sure, but to what point? There's even less variety than there is now. If something like that is added, I'll just always put the points in the same distribution every game (which is all on one dupe and all into research, btw, then I'll get rid of the other two later probably). Why put in effort to end up with a system that is less unique? as it stands, you reroll for a bit and it's like a gamble that's free. Do I want to keep my +4 research, who also happens to be +2 digging and +2 construction? Or do I reroll for someone with +6 learning? etc.

I don't want it to change because I think it's fine the way it is.

You get +10 points to distribute for each dupe. The number is random it's just for the idea explanation purposes. You say "Sure, but to what point? There's even less variety than there is now. If something like that is added, I'll just always put the points in the same distribution every game (which is all on one dupe and all into research, btw, then I'll get rid of the other two later probably)." You just always put the points in the same distribution or you always shuffle for same attributes. It's similar but having points deletes that pointless shuffle. It is pointless cuz i get what i want anyway. How is it that that system brings less variety? Especially if it's optional. You can use the points or just let the game distribute them randomly as usual. About always putting points into the same thing again and again. There is always a META(most efficent tactic available, in other words if you do things this way you are more efficent) in EVERY GAME. After some time after release the game gets solved and ofcourse some routes are more efficent than others so if you are that kind ofp layer that always strives for most efficiency you will always go that route. It does not change from changing this system. You say gamble is free, it's not it is a waste because it is not fun and i will get to what i want anyway inevitable so what is the point to go through all that shuffling anyway.. As for this small differences in difference playthroughts like +2to this+2 to this, The difference in the fun you get what that little differences in stats between your playthroughts is not worth imo and nonfeelable.

[Dirmagnos]

Fully customizable dupes from rpg-lite system that is used in various 4x games. 100(100 points instead of 10 allows for much more flexible "pricing" of stats and perks) points and then spread them however you like. Positive perks cost points, negative perks give points. Same with selection of interests and skills. Different traits/skills cost different amount of points and every next skill level costs more to make investing everything in one skill ill-advisable.

Also with option to use current system, where points are assigned randomly. Each its own.

And pls save it "but current random system is so much better". Its not. My least favorite part of the game is to reroll dupes at beginning for 10 minutes and then save scum later in game to get one of new arrivals to have stats that are of interest to me. And if i dont save scum i may never get all but one dupes to have "uncultured" trait. And i want it.

"Why not use use dupes that game generates ?" Why not eat **** ? Why use dupes that i consider to have inferior stats, while there is clear possibility to get those that fit my gameplay style much better ? They are mentally retarded as is, i dont need any extra "difficulty" from them having poor stats on top of it.

With current system it is possible to get if not perfect fit, but close enough to what player wants, with rerolls and save scumming. But it adds an additional, completely pointless and irritating, step in between.