feralfoo Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 COOLING EXPLOIT AHEAD I've seen many posts regarding the creation of liquid oxygen, so have been playing in debug mode. The following build uses the Borg cube filled with around 5000 kg of existing lo2. The broken pipe will keep breaking if you fix it, but it works fine so can be ignored. The temp sensor is set to -206C, and every time the aquatuner kicks in it drops to about -213C In the pictures the system is handling 1kg/s of po2, with cooling kicking in around twice a cycle for a few seconds each time. It easily handles 2kg/s, I'm going to keep scaling it up to see how much the cube can handle. An interesting observation while messing with this...The insulated Abyssalite tiles start at 20C when added via debug, but they exchange temperature immediately on contact with lo2. This in turn heats large amounts of lo2 back to gas (~5kg/s) and cools the insulated Abyssalite, leveling off at -188.3C. Spoiler Reconfigured to handle 4kg/s And because...why not, 10kg/s May be able to push 15kg/s by stretching the borg cube sideways a few more tiles. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhailRaptor Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 The temperature interaction you are experiencing has nothing to do with the LO2 and everything to do with the placement of your Tempshift Plates. They seem to ignore the normal thermal properties of tiles they are in contact with, thus allowing them to equalize in temperature with Abysallite Tiles and Insulated Tiles extremely rapidly. As long as the temperature difference between affected Abyssalite and the surroundings doesn't exceed 500 C, there should be no "cold leak", so ultimately it's not an issue. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimgaw Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 Just now, PhailRaptor said: As long as the temperature difference between affected Abyssalite and the surroundings doesn't exceed 500 C Is see 500c tossed around a lot recently. Can you explain what exactly happens when delta is at this magical point? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
feralfoo Posted April 21, 2018 Author Share Posted April 21, 2018 8 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said: The temperature interaction you are experiencing has nothing to do with the LO2 and everything to do with the placement of your Tempshift Plates. They seem to ignore the normal thermal properties of tiles they are in contact with, thus allowing them to equalize in temperature with Abysallite Tiles and Insulated Tiles extremely rapidly. As long as the temperature difference between affected Abyssalite and the surroundings doesn't exceed 500 C, there should be no "cold leak", so ultimately it's not an issue. There are no tempshift plates in the storage chamber on the right, yet every single insulated abyssalite tile in contact with lo2 interacted as described, even the far right ones. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabrute Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 there is a long standing bug with liquids bypassing the conductivity of materials if the energy transfer will convert 5kg to a different phase. should I go pull up the old post where I made this claim before and someone proved it with a whole slew of different materials? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhailRaptor Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 44 minutes ago, Grimgaw said: Is see 500c tossed around a lot recently. Can you explain what exactly happens when delta is at this magical point? Its the point at which the game engine no longer rounds the thermal exchange between Abyssalite and other substances down to zero. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
feralfoo Posted April 21, 2018 Author Share Posted April 21, 2018 38 minutes ago, Kabrute said: there is a long standing bug with liquids bypassing the conductivity of materials if the energy transfer will convert 5kg to a different phase. should I go pull up the old post where I made this claim before and someone proved it with a whole slew of different materials? Absolutely @Kabrute please link Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabrute Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 I went all the way back to OC 40 odd pages, couldn't find the specific post in question so its older than occupational upgrade Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flydo Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 4 hours ago, feralfoo said: COOLING EXPLOIT AHEAD I've seen many posts regarding the creation of liquid oxygen, so have been playing in debug mode. The following build uses the Borg cube filled with around 5000 kg of existing lo2. The broken pipe will keep breaking if you fix it, but it works fine so can be ignored. The temp sensor is set to -206C, and every time the aquatuner kicks in it drops to about -213C In the pictures the system is handling 1kg/s of po2, with cooling kicking in around twice a cycle for a few seconds each time. It easily handles 2kg/s, I'm going to keep scaling it up to see how much the cube can handle. An interesting observation while messing with this...The insulated Abyssalite tiles start at 20C when added via debug, but they exchange temperature immediately on contact with lo2. This in turn heats large amounts of lo2 back to gas (~5kg/s) and cools the insulated Abyssalite, leveling off at -188.3C. Reveal hidden contents If you really want to play with liquid oxygen, I advise you to use normal tile but make a vaccum wall instead, cause like you see insulated wall (despite of the fact you made it with abysalitte) conduct heat and make some trouble. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
feralfoo Posted April 21, 2018 Author Share Posted April 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Flydo said: If you really want to play with liquid oxygen, I advise you to use normal tile but make a vaccum wall instead, cause like you see insulated wall (despite of the fact you made it with abysalitte) conduct heat and make some trouble. Yeah have reworked so the storage chamber is lined with gold tiles which are actively cooled. 2 hours ago, Kabrute said: I went all the way back to OC 40 odd pages, couldn't find the specific post in question so its older than occupational upgrade Thanks for looking Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flydo Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 Really, I suggest you to made a vaccuum wall, i made a tuto about how to construct it Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
feralfoo Posted April 21, 2018 Author Share Posted April 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, Flydo said: Really, I suggest you to made a vaccuum wall, i made a tuto about how to construct it The issue I was seeing before, is when pumping lo2 into the storage chamber, it would immediately turn to gas as soon as it touches any tiles. This is now solved because the tiles are actively cooled. Is a vacuum wall going to solve this? If yes then please link the tutorial and I'll have a look. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flydo Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 No, this don't solve your trouble but you will use less energy to make liquid oxygen (and trouble will take less time too) and also avoid to cool down thing next to it. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
feralfoo Posted April 21, 2018 Author Share Posted April 21, 2018 22 minutes ago, Flydo said: No, this don't solve your trouble but you will use less energy to make liquid oxygen (and trouble will take less time too) and also avoid to cool down thing next to it. Thanks for posting the link. Since this is a debug build its really easy to build a double wall with vacuum in the middle. I have a few questions though: Can you explain how using the vacuum wall will ultimately use less energy. Keeping in mind I still want the storage chamber to be actively cooled, so the lo2 stays liquid. The vacuum wall prevents heat from moving, but using insulated abyssalite tiles (or just plain abyssalite) also does this. Why would a vacuum wall be better, once again keep in mind I don't want the liquid turning to gas, hence having the inner wall actively cooled? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flydo Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 40 minutes ago, feralfoo said: Since this is a debug build its really easy to build a double wall with vacuum in the middle. I sometimes use debug, but but most of the time I make my system in real game to answer this question: Can I do it in real game? 40 minutes ago, feralfoo said: Can you explain how using the vacuum wall will ultimately use less energy. Keeping in mind I still want the storage chamber to be actively cooled, so the lo2 stays liquid. If you have a storage 9x9 in abysalite, you will have 32 tile in direct contact with outside and 4 corner (I don't know precisely how to count them but i think it count as two tile when the room and wall is at temperature of liquid oxygen) so 40 tile exchange (made calcul easiest) Abysallite have 0.00001 (W/m)/K (i supose m is for tile) with your inside at -210 °C and outside at +30 °C, 240*0.00001*40=0.096 W so about 0.1 J/s, it's quite few but for long term use, i already had some trouble (liquid oxygen room cooling really down the outside). With vaccum wall they become 0 J/s (pipe, wire don't transfert heat). So if your active cooling shutting down in your case liquid can transform in gaz, with vaccum wall if it's liquid form it's stay liquid (Calcul was made when all the tile be at the liquid temperature, at the beggining you don't have so much heat transfer) 40 minutes ago, feralfoo said: The vacuum wall prevents heat from moving, but using insulated abyssalite tiles (or just plain abyssalite) also does this. Why would a vacuum wall be better, once again keep in mind I don't want the liquid turning to gas, hence having the inner wall actively cooled? Like I say, insulated abyssalite tiles (plain abyssalite prevents heat i think) transfer a very little amount of heat, you could think that is not important but i already use a liquid oxygen system for few hundred cycles and i see trouble appear: _Outside cooling down _ liquid transform in gas without active cooling (or if the cooling is too small for the room) I know it's really a very little point of thermodynamics, but i really remenber my trouble at the beggining of the game Just take care with the vaccum wall at the temperature of your pipe, it's could be annoying to have a pipe break inside this kind of wall. I made this kind of system at the beggining of the game, i don't try it again since, It could be interesting to made the both system at the same time and make it work for a long term use to see precisely the difference. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
feralfoo Posted April 21, 2018 Author Share Posted April 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, Flydo said: I sometimes use debug, but but most of the time I make my system in real game to answer this question: Can I do it in real game? Nowhere in this post did I ask you for advice on doing something in the real game vs debug. If thats what you like to do, please create your own topic. 8 minutes ago, Flydo said: If you have a storage 9x9 in abysalite, you will have 32 tile in direct contact with outside and 4 corner (I don't know precisely how to count them but i think it count as two tile when the room and wall is at temperature of liquid oxygen) so 40 tile exchange (made calcul easiest) Abysallite have 0.00001 (W/m)/K (i supose m is for tile) with your inside at -210 °C and outside at +30 °C, 240*0.00001*40=0.096 W so about 0.1 J/s, it's quite few but for long term use, i already had some trouble (liquid oxygen room cooling really down the outside). With vaccum wall they become 0 J/s (pipe, wire don't transfert heat). So if your active cooling shutting down in your case liquid can transform in gaz, with vaccum wall if it's liquid form it's stay liquid (Calcul was made when all the tile be at the liquid temperature, at the beggining you don't have so much heat transfer) Is your point here that the abyssalite tiles will eventually heat up from the outside environment? If yes then you could have just said that. Also if yes, you are quite literally talking about tens of thousands of cycles, if not more. I'd rather more compact builds using abyssalite tiles thanks. Sorry but you have not convinced me that using a 3 tile wide vacuum wall here is of any practical advantage. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flydo Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 3 hours ago, feralfoo said: Is your point here that the abyssalite tiles will eventually heat up from the outside environment? If yes then you could have just said that. Also if yes, you are quite literally talking about tens of thousands of cycles, if not more. I'd rather more compact builds using abyssalite tiles thanks. Sorry but you have not convinced me that using a 3 tile wide vacuum wall here is of any practical advantage. I know that i will probably not convinced you. The trouble is not really for the inside but for the outside loosing heat and finish by freeze the water i use outside. It's a long time ago, i could probably made a better one now Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
feralfoo Posted April 21, 2018 Author Share Posted April 21, 2018 5 hours ago, Flydo said: The trouble is not really for the inside but for the outside loosing heat and finish by freeze the water i use outside. It's a long time ago, i could probably made a better one now Interesting, this sounds like the perfect setting for some experiments. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flydo Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 14 hours ago, feralfoo said: Interesting, this sounds like the perfect setting for some experiments. Please share me your results Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoma_Nosme Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 Would double abysalite walls help? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1028603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
feralfoo Posted April 24, 2018 Author Share Posted April 24, 2018 On 4/23/2018 at 2:22 AM, Yoma_Nosme said: Would double abysalite walls help? Double wall yes, but not double abyssalite. The inner wall is gold, so the cooling chamber pre cools the storage chamber walls before you start pumping lo2 in there. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1029173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasuha Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 On 4/21/2018 at 8:46 AM, PhailRaptor said: As long as the temperature difference between affected Abyssalite and the surroundings doesn't exceed 500 C, there should be no "cold leak", so ultimately it's not an issue. Are you sure it's 500 C? I had a gold volcano build with tempshift-plated coolant pool kept around 4 C and the abyssalite tiles around it are all around 9 C, that would suggest the difference is rather about just 5 C. That might turn to be an issue if the abyssalite tile has tempshift plates on both sides. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1029193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhailRaptor Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 16 hours ago, Kasuha said: Are you sure it's 500 C? I had a gold volcano build with tempshift-plated coolant pool kept around 4 C and the abyssalite tiles around it are all around 9 C, that would suggest the difference is rather about just 5 C. That might turn to be an issue if the abyssalite tile has tempshift plates on both sides. I have not tested it, that was a number that multiple people have cited as being the temperature gradient for Abyssallite to have a thermal exchange rate that was relevant. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1029572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
feralfoo Posted April 27, 2018 Author Share Posted April 27, 2018 Because why not, 10kg/s May be able to push 15kg/s by stretching the borg cube sideways a few more tiles. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1030403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technoincubus Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 what is borg cube? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/90031-more-fun-with-lo2/#findComment-1030405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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