DST Caves review and suggestions for tweaks

[XirmiX]

NOTE: I have not explored the whole of caves, but I know quite a bit to give my review on them.

 

When I first entered caves it seemed that Chester can't be taken there, so I had to take whatever that he had on him on me, which filled up my inventory, even though I had Krampus sack. When it started leaking, I was happy to see the animation changed, it looked much better, however there was still an occasional heavy leaking, which doesn't really make sense because caves stop the water from getting in quite the bit, so I'd be okay with the light leaking, but not with the heavy one. Glad that water isn't falling 100% of the time though, so that's good (I went in during Spring, so yeah, not 100% of the time). On my journey I found some glow berry plants. I knew that actual glow berry plants were added, so I mostly switched between tam/eyebrella and battle helmet when approaching one. I harvested something called Lesser Glowberry I think. It was disappointing for me to find out that they had no use whatsoever except eating and glowing, which takes up 15 of your sanity anyway. And kind of a bug that I found is that the light dragged behind me while I walked, though this might just be because I didn't have prediction off. I found two biomes full of mushtrees, one with red, the other with blue. The blue one is what I loved the most. In all honesty, a bunch of blue mushrooms can save your life and even sustain you there, so if you were to have a caves-only server, these mushrooms in high amounts could fill your stats almost if not fully up to max!

 

At some point a Depth Worm attack occurred. I was late game and so like 5 Depth worms attacked me. My friend was early game, though he also got 5. It might have been that only 1 or 2 were his and the rest were mine though they aggroed on him. Either way it was impossible to fight them. I just read up on wiki that they do trigger tooth traps, but having tooth traps around every single entrance would be kind of a drag. It's impossible to fight as many as they were even with multiple players. Since each player boosts up the number of worms that come after you, it just becomes impossible and eventually your cave world might become overpopulated with them and luring out 1 of them would be pretty much impossible. And I'll say, me and my friend were prepped, we had jerky for health, battle helmets and log suits for armour and tentacle spikes as weapons. I'd suggest that, for the sake of multiplayer, in this case that Depth worm health goes up perhaps but the numbers should definitely be down, so that there's at the maximum 3 of them after you, because now that the caves have been changed, you won't find Rock lobsters here and there (I have yet to find ONE)!

 

In terms of crafting, it seems fine for the most part. Science machine and Alchemy engine (if you had a caves-only world) could easily be built after 1 or 2 earthquakes and same with crock pots so meatballs is something you will probably rely on apart from blue and perhaps green mushrooms as well. The problem would be that certain items, which are pretty much vital for survival, or more precisely seasonal survival would be impossible to make if you tried to survive there without having an overworld. Things like the floral shirts & summer frests (because there's no cactuses nor birds down in the caves), beefalo hats & winter hats (because you have no way of getting beefalo wool), breezy & puffy vests (no koalefants and puffy vests also require beefalo wool), pig skin (no pig houses down there), no way to get hound's teeth (no hounds, duh).

 

My suggestions are:

1) Make the amount of mushtrees and mushrooms scarser, say by a half. If one gets burnt, then the whole place eventually could and that would be bad as there is no way to get waterballoons for the mushtrees. Perhaps x2 less abundant in their said biomes? And may be same for mushrooms because the blue ones can make your stats go all the way up if you get enough of them and the amount of them that you find in a single biome or in a single area of the said biome will just make it all easy for you. It'll be like a paradise in terms of stat managing.

2) Make Depth worms drop Hound's teeth, and for that sake rename the item to Beast's tooth.

3) Have more craftables for the Bunny puffs, so perhaps some winter clothing out of those would be nice, which would be great if you have a Caves only world and don't have to live off of thermal stones.

4) Have some berry bushes and/or carrots or perhaps some other type of vegetable and/or fruit specific to caves at the beginning (spawn and entrances) so that you don't live on the edge of hunger before finding blue mushtree biome.

5) Have a way of getting renewable gears, because I think there are ancient clockworks, however because there are no tumbleweeds, gears would become non-renewable.#

6) I'm not sure, though I don't think Slurpers breed, so the amount of belts of hunger is limited, which is an item that could be very useful in caves considering the scarsity of food for biomes other than blue mushtree biome.

7) Make Lesser glowberries a way to at least refuel the moggles. I'd suggest that depth worm Glow berries should provide more durability to moggles since you only need 1 glowberry for them anyway (say 66%) and the small glowberries could give it like 10 or so percent on durability.

 

There's still problems with being able to make a Houndius shootius, so Ancient guardian would be pointless to kill unless it's for fun and the pig skin problem, though that isn't so important as you can get rain hats and rain coats in caves if moles fall down during earthquakes and there's tentacles and reeds and you have a wickerbottom.

 

What do you guys think of my ideas and perhaps you too have problems with the way caves are integrated as only-caves right now or simply with a several things that are in place?

[StaypuftMMM]

Any critique I would have depends on whether Klei expects cave to be survivable at day 1 for most players or a later game option (as typical in single player).  

 

If the intention is to make it similar to single player then it is currently too easy down there.  Less mush trees (more spaced out to prevent a "forest fire" as you mentioned) is a good idea.  However, I don't think Klei should invent ways to obtain resources that can be found on the surface.  If you want those items then go to the surface and get them.  Again, this is if the purpose of caves is to be similar to single player.

 

edit: spelling/grammatical

 

[Ipsquiggle]

What do you guys think of my ideas and perhaps you too have problems with the way caves are integrated as only-caves right now or simply with a several things that are in place?

 

Thanks, XirmiX, this is some great feedback! I'll be breaking this down into items to investigate.

 

Any critique I would have depends on whether Klei expects cave to be survivable at day 1 for most players or a later game option (as typical in single player).  

 

If the intention is to make it similar to single player then it is currently too easy down there.  Less mush trees (more spaced out to prevent a "forest fire" as you mentioned) is a good idea.  However, I don't think Klei should invent ways to obtain resources that can be found on the surface.  If you want those items then go to the surface and get them.  Again, this is if the purpose of caves is to be similar to single player.

 

edit: spelling/grammatical

Yes, we're investigating making them survivable without an overworld. This would probably become a different preset, so you can have your "hard caves" or "survivable caves" as you see fit. For now we're just playing with different balances. For example, I really like the well-lit blue mushroom biome, so I'd be more inclined to lower the drop rates of mushcaps rather than lessen the trees, but that's not a promise, we'll see how the balance ends up playing out.

[Lumina]

However, I don't think Klei should invent ways to obtain resources that can be found on the surface.  If you want those items then go to the surface and get them.  Again, this is if the purpose of caves is to be similar to single player.

 

 

 

We're still making it so that "caves only" is viable, please keep trying and let us know what the biggest pain points are! Definitely starting flint is one of the problems...

 

So i suppose they are trying to make it at least possible without going on the surface.

 

I don't know if the solution is to give surface item, but at least, it will be better with some way to manage cold, heat and rain a little more finely than just with fires.

 

Earmuffs are possible, earthquake drop rabbits.

You needs bones shards to make the rain coat and rain hat. Moleworm are dropped by earthquake too, there is tentacle.

Maybe earthquake in winter could drop some ice ? Will allow creating ice cube and eating ice to cool you a little.

 

You will have nitre (earthquake) and grass so you could make endothermic fire.

 

 

(Arg, i answered too slowly :'( )

[XirmiX]

Thanks, XirmiX, this is some great feedback! I'll be breaking this down into items to investigate.

Yes, we're investigating making them survivable without an overworld. This would probably become a different preset, so you can have your "hard caves" or "survivable caves" as you see fit. For now we're just playing with different balances. For example, I really like the well-lit blue mushroom biome, so I'd be more inclined to lower the drop rates of mushcaps rather than lessen the trees, but that's not a promise, we'll see how the balance ends up playing out.

How about simply spacing out mushtrees and increasing the light radius of them? That could work too!

Oh, I just realized that farms and seeds can't be obtained either! I guess guano farms could be a thing, but where would you get seeds? Perhaps you could plant mushtree spores to grow mushtrees in the guano farms? So that mushrooms could become mobile or something and those guano farms would only be for growing mushrooms in them, hence they'd be smaller.

@Lumina nobody uses Ice cubes because they're extremely bad and need rebalancing, though Ice would be needed. Nice idea with ice dropping down into the caves though

[Toroic]

I don't think it's very important to have the caves be fully survivable starting out as all characters. Woodie could probably make it work, and maxwell certainly can, but everyone else might have some trouble.

The majority of servers will either run a surface only game, or have both.

Caves and ruins should both be on the same map. I know the nightmare cycle is already active, I saw a rift open while my sanity was high. Ruins are why anyone goes into the caves other than rabbit hutches and moggles. There are gears and a host of other unique items that could be brought back to the surface.

Bad players wander in and die enough already, and there isn't as much freedom to explore in the ruins because you can't move around without consuming resources.

[Shian]

If there's one thing I'd like changed I'd like there to be a "X has gone Spelunking.", "X has gone to the Overworld." message in the same way that we get "X has joined/left/died."

 

Also possibly a way to see which players are in which world, because right now we can only see the players for the world we're in. It would be good if once we open the scoreboard we could toggle between the Caves and Overworld.

[NotStarvnMarvn]

On caves only:

2 things, 1. I have found rock lobsters! 2. On day 29 worms attacked me and i had gotten 6. WTF? Cave worms have high hp and dmg and are very hard to take out when they are in one random cluster. Please somehow make the worms easier or something like that, its impossible to fight 6 going solo. Getting 6 worms on day 29 seems like its a little too much on a day as low as that. It just me at the time so it wasn't player amount that jacked them up.

 

Little tidbits about caves only:

No farms, almost 0 berries (maybe make them a little more common?).

Can't get tooth traps.

No giants or minibosses (except treeguards).

No birds/eggs!

Is there even wormholes?

Rock lobsters and bunnies are only source of meat, good luck wigfrid!

And yes, no flint lying around.

[Lumina]

Rock lobsters and bunnies are only source of meat, good luck wigfrid!

 

 

Not exactly true. You could obtain moleworm and rabbit, in the earthquake, and you could find pond (not frozing in winter as far as i can tell), so it could help, even if it's probably not enough.

[Toroic]

Caves were meant to be a more difficult area, for a well-prepared character coming down from the surface (usually with a stack of jerky if they're going to the ruins) 

 

Caves themselves don't have many advantages that would make you want to make a base there, except for privacy.  Sanity isn't really a problem despite the dark due to how many greens there are, lightbulbs are all over, and while the most plentiful food is mushrooms, sometimes that's all you need.

 

I would agree that worm attacks are far more obnoxious than hound attacks, and their numbers per player are far higher than single player, which according to the wiki starts with 1 worm every 12 days and ends with 3 worms every 5 days at day 150.

[Lumina]

Caves were meant to be a more difficult area, for a well-prepared character coming down from the surface (usually with a stack of jerky if they're going to the ruins)

 

But Klei seems to want "Cave Only" server to be playable and, i suppose, fun. So there is probably some change to bring, allowing you to start in cave and survive without the surface.

 

It would always be better to have cave AND surface but you should be able to manage to survive only with a cave, so it's important to list all the things that make it impossible/tedious.

 

Rather than more berries, i would love to see more "cave specific" plant. Thinking of it, i've don't see any cave banana for the moment.

 

 

I've seen some bones shard, so you could make some rain coat/hat but it seems to be a kind of set piece/specific biome, it could be hard to find in "normal" time.

 

[StaypuftMMM]

 

Thanks, XirmiX, this is some great feedback! I'll be breaking this down into items to investigate.

 

Yes, we're investigating making them survivable without an overworld. This would probably become a different preset, so you can have your "hard caves" or "survivable caves" as you see fit. For now we're just playing with different balances. For example, I really like the well-lit blue mushroom biome, so I'd be more inclined to lower the drop rates of mushcaps rather than lessen the trees, but that's not a promise, we'll see how the balance ends up playing out.

 

Thanks for clarifying that for me.  Since there are possibly two versions of how the caves will be presented I will keep that in mind as I check them out.  

 

Currently, as is, they seem to be pretty good for survivability (haven't spent too much time down there yet).  Forgot to mention, I think they look great.  Really like the staircases as well as the aura/glow from all the vegetation. 

[StaypuftMMM]

On caves only:

2 things, 1. I have found rock lobsters! 2. On day 29 worms attacked me and i had gotten 6. WTF? Cave worms have high hp and dmg and are very hard to take out when they are in one random cluster. Please somehow make the worms easier or something like that, its impossible to fight 6 going solo. Getting 6 worms on day 29 seems like its a little too much on a day as low as that. It just me at the time so it wasn't player amount that jacked them up.

 

Little tidbits about caves only:

No farms, almost 0 berries (maybe make them a little more common?).

Can't get tooth traps.

No giants or minibosses (except treeguards).

No birds/eggs!

Is there even wormholes?

Rock lobsters and bunnies are only source of meat, good luck wigfrid!

And yes, no flint lying around.

 

Depth worms and spiders are also great sources of meat.  

 

The biggest potential issue I see is the inability to have a bird/eggs (as you suggested).  

Whenever I base in the caves, I know/expect to lose out on some of the creature comforts of the overworld.  However, turning monster meat into eggs is really important (even playing as Webber in singleplayer).  

[NotStarvnMarvn]

OH! You cant make any sanity-boosting clothes other than the top hat. That means no garland, tam 'o shanter, hibearnation vest, or dapper vest. Anyone else think that the winter/summer clothes gone are a huge one too (except thermal stone)? I also forgot to mention gears! No gears!!

 

My biggest one: Again, depths worm. As of day 25-32(ish), unplayable.

[Toroic]

OH! You cant make any sanity-boosting clothes other than the top hat. That means no garland, tam 'o shanter, hibearnation vest, or dapper vest. Anyone else think that the winter/summer clothes gone are a huge one too (except thermal stone)? I also forgot to mention gears! No gears!!

My biggest one: Again, depths worm. As of day 25-32(ish), unplayable.

Gears are found in the ruins, green mushrooms can manage sanity.

[Lumina]

But ruins will be a hard place, and a late-game place, too. So could you really expect people to wait until they are able to reach ruin (and fight monster) to have a fridge ?

[1v0]

I will write a short review for caves . 

So far I really love how mushrooms have become a big thing all the mushtree forests and all of it . I suspect there will be even more mushroom themed content . That begin said I hope there will be mushroom themed enemy too that roams the mushforest xD and adds more danger . They really expand the game and me and my friends have started to play DST again  (like playing it all day xD) .

[NotStarvnMarvn]

Are ruins even in yet?

[Ridley]

In single player, I hated the awful Depth Worms. They do a big chunk of damage, camp near the entrances, and are aggravating to fight. I dealt with them by making them fight Rock Lobsters, but I still had kill the worms myself because they would keep the lobsters in defense mode. I don't think I would want to attempt surviving in the caves in less those worms get a tweak in the system.

 

Do the worms tunnel through all forms of turf? If they couldn't go through certain types of turf, I could at least make a base at the entrance. Still doesn't solve the problem of those worms never going away, you can't walk over them so eventually they would block up narrow passages.

[XirmiX]

I have found areas of small swamps in the caves, but haven't explored them exactly. Was curious whether there are Tentapillars in DST caves because I have yet to find one!

[NotStarvnMarvn]

Answering some questions: 

Tentapillars? I am pretty sure there are none but idk for sure.

Rock lobsters? Yes. Yes! YES!!

Ruins? I think they aren't in yet.

Nightmare fissures? Yeah, they are still there.

 

I'm still looking into this ill update it in a few.

 

Update:

 

No tentapillars.

No ruins.

You CAN get chester on caves only!!!
There are slurpers (but really really super-duper rare).

No gears. Period.