himmatsj Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 So I am currently playing an Expert Ironman run (fingers crossed!), and am using Faust + Brimstone combo. However, I would like to know, how exactly does Brimstone function? The 10% probability, is it for any and all deamon "activations" (meaning, one in every 10 deamon activated will be reversed)? So, effectively, where Faust has a 20% chance to initiate a random deamon, Brimstone has a 10% probability to "cancel" this deamon and instead reward you in some way? Which in turn means, Brimstone's effective probability of installing a successful deamon is then reduced to 18%? Also, I am pretty sure the game already has a hidden reversing daemon value right? I recall seeing the green icons for daemon reversals before, though extremely rarely. Any idea what this value is? And another question. Do daemon reversals only grant you power and AP related stuff? Or can they give you cash etc? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberboy2000 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 You are correct. Brimstone works on all daemons. The game's default reversal probability is 10%, so Brimstone doubles that chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leonseye Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 There is a base chance to reverse a Daemon, though I am not positive what this percentage is. It seems to be around 5%, but that's just as a guess, though. Brimstone adds 10% to this pre-existing chance. As for Daemon reversals, there are: Attune - Decrease program PWR cost by X for X number of rounds.Order - Increase all agents' AP by X for X number of rounds.Fortune - Gain X Credits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider1011 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 your analysis of brimstone is correct as afaik. not worth it to run the combo unless you want the achievement or like the challenge. and I'd take Central since her augment is far stronger that the increased reverse chance of brimstone. no idea what the base reversal chance is unfortunately. you can get money from daemon reversals. I thinks the possibilities are AP increase, PWR reduction and cash. would be cool if you could get a reverse Blowfish. that's why I always use spare PWR at the end of the mission to hack identified non-Felix daemons. the chance may be small but the PWR is gone anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
himmatsj Posted June 9, 2015 Author Share Posted June 9, 2015 You are correct. Brimstone works on all daemons. The game's default reversal probability is 10%, so Brimstone doubles that chance.Is this certain? The 10% base value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
himmatsj Posted June 9, 2015 Author Share Posted June 9, 2015 your analysis of brimstone is correct as afaik. not worth it to run the combo unless you want the achievement or like the challenge. and I'd take Central since her augment is far stronger that the increased reverse chance of brimstone.no idea what the base reversal chance is unfortunately.you can get money from daemon reversals. I thinks the possibilities are AP increase, PWR reduction and cash. would be cool if you could get a reverse Blowfish.that's why I always use spare PWR at the end of the mission to hack identified non-Felix daemons. the chance may be small but the PWR is gone anyway.Yes, I am taking it for the achievement. Just a question...if I get lock pick later on, Brimstone will still retain its probability right?I'm currently using Central and International for my run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberboy2000 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 local monst3rReverseOdds = reversalOdds or 10 if sim:nextRand( 1, 100 ) < monst3rReverseOdds and self:isNPC() then monst3rReverse = true end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leonseye Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Yes, I am taking it for the achievement.Just a question...if I get lock pick later on, Brimstone will still retain its probability right?I'm currently using Central and International for my run. Yes, most of us who use Brimstone religiously (though I use Seed + Brimstone, but I understand you're going for the achieve : ) pick up more efficient programs to actually use and just keep Brimstone there for the passive reversal chance. When it comes to late Endless games, that reversal chance comes in VERY handy. Especially against Fractal 2.0... ...as an aside, if you have Central, Fractal 2.0 basically becomes infinite PWR for the entire mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
himmatsj Posted June 9, 2015 Author Share Posted June 9, 2015 Yes, most of us who use Brimstone religiously (though I use Seed + Brimstone, but I understand you're going for the achieve : ) pick up more efficient programs to actually use and just keep Brimstone there for the passive reversal chance. When it comes to late Endless games, that reversal chance comes in VERY handy. Especially against Fractal 2.0... ...as an aside, if you have Central, Fractal 2.0 basically becomes infinite PWR for the entire mission. Is Faust too difficult for the purposes of an Ironman run? I thought I'd just take the challenge and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider1011 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 it's not impossible but you can get a daemon at any time. and the wrong daemon at the wrong time can screw you over and possibly end your run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leonseye Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Is Faust too difficult for the purposes of an Ironman run? I thought I'd just take the challenge and see. Well, it's not that it's too difficult, and I had a good long run using Faust that was plenty fun.. It's just that there are really much better alternatives in Seed or Fusion, especially if you have a team built for it, imo. Central + Monst3r's gun + Brimstone means you can install a Daemon at any time that you choose for 5 PWR and a higher chance at reversal for all Daemon's. Add Seed or Fusion on top of this and you have infinite PWR, pretty much. Or simply the fact that Fusion or Seed have a guaranteed 3 PWR per turn as compared to Faust's 2 PWR and a chance at Daemons that drain credits or PWR, lock out Incognita entirely, raise your Alarm LVL by 3-4 segments, lower your AP, and fill your level w/ Elite Enforcers. Sometimes all at the same time, lol. Like I said, I had fun using Faust for a while and the random factor keeps you on your toes. It's great if you want to challenge yourself. But in the end, it can end up really screwing you over just for PWR generation that is actually worse than other, safer choices. In the end, it turned out that it was really Brimstone itself that I really liked from those runs, and there's absolutely no shortage of Daemons on Endless (hello Fractal 2.0) anyway. So now I usually go w/ Seed + Brimstone for my starting lineup. However, if your aim is to make your run as hard as possible, I don't think your lineup would be complete w/out Faust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wormerine Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I did expert ironam using brimstone, faust, central. Frankly it went smoother then expected. Yeah, sometime I got annoying daemon which complicated things, but more often than not it either didn't really matter or it got reversed. And extra power provided by Central made it worth I think (I one point I had double raise of programs cost and was still doing just fine.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMV Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 would be cool if you could get a reverse Blowfish.Hey, now. That's illegal in 37 states. that's why I always use spare PWR at the end of the mission to hack identified non-Felix daemons. the chance may be small but the PWR is gone anyway.Cool, insight there. I'll be doing this too from now on. You should also camp the final room a long as you can to generate the power to hack those daemons. They inadvertently added a reason to camp the elevator, after taking out the "20 power to start" reason back in Beta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacovf Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Or simply the fact that Fusion or Seed have a guaranteed 3 PWR per turn as compared to Faust's 2 PWR Fusion PWR generation is 1.75 PWR/turn, and it requires a big upfront investment. Fusion only breaks even with Power Drip by turn 9. Faust generates more power than Fusion, and does not require that upfront investment. Whether Faust's slightly higher PWR generation and free pseudo-Abacus v2.0, compared to Fusion, is worth the 20% chance of a demon per turn is of course a matter of debate, but the quite higher PWR generation itself is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leonseye Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Fusion PWR generation is 1.75 PWR/turn, and it requires a big upfront investment. Fusion only breaks even with Power Drip by turn 9. Faust generates more power than Fusion, and does not require that upfront investment. Whether Faust's slightly higher PWR generation and free pseudo-Abacus v2.0, compared to Fusion, is worth the 20% chance of a demon per turn is of course a matter of debate, but the quite higher PWR generation itself is not. You're forgetting that I said that you have to build specifically for it. Like Central + Monst3r's gun is a guaranteed free 5 PWR when needed, completely cancelling out Fusion's 5 PWR investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider1011 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 your build doesn't change the math behind fusion. you can also take Power Drip and get the 5 PWR from central. also you'll always get the PWR every turn from Power Drip or Faust except when you're full. if you use Central + Monst3r's gun and you get a Paradox daemon installed you can't cast Fusion for 3 turns. also knocking a guard out has it's own disadvantages and the gun has a fairly long cooldown as well. I see the synergy but I'm not convinced it's worth it. central is on of the strongest characters for Endless and she's good for offseting Fausts daemons. but Monst3r, I don't think it's worth taking him. except for challenge purposes of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leonseye Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 your build doesn't change the math behind fusion. you can also take Power Drip and get the 5 PWR from central. also you'll always get the PWR every turn from Power Drip or Faust except when you're full. if you use Central + Monst3r's gun and you get a Paradox daemon installed you can't cast Fusion for 3 turns. also knocking a guard out has it's own disadvantages and the gun has a fairly long cooldown as well. I see the synergy but I'm not convinced it's worth it. central is on of the strongest characters for Endless and she's good for offseting Fausts daemons. but Monst3r, I don't think it's worth taking him. except for challenge purposes of course. Well, we can agree to disagree, as I find the 5 PWR that Fusion costs to be entirely negligible when you have very easy ways to make up this deficit almost immediately. However, I do agree that using Monst3r is not worth taking long-term, which I never said was the case. I only mentioned his gun, not him specifically. Monst3r's usefulness wanes almost entirely at mid-game when you no longer care about the discount he gets from Nanofabs and should be promptly replaced at that point, imo. That really has no bearing on using his gun, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
himmatsj Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 Ok, so I decided to do a Expert Ironman run w/o Faust+Brimstone (I used Fusion + Lockpick), and I managed to do it! Yay! Used Prism and International as my starting agents. I think using this combo really makes you super-safe on the power side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacovf Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Well, we can agree to disagree, as I find the 5 PWR that Fusion costs to be entirely negligible when you have very easy ways to make up this deficit almost immediately. If you have a build for which 5PWR is negligible, I don't think your choice of starting PWR program really matters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxwell1234 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Since this thread has become debates about PWR generating programs, does nobody here like Seed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leonseye Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Since this thread has become debates about PWR generating programs, does nobody here like Seed? Oh, I've become a Seed believer, I think that Fusion was just a point of contention since it actually costs 5 PWR. But I pretty much always use Seed right now after having tried it on suggestion from one of the posters in a different thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMV Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I love Seed. My biggest problem with it is when I play without it now, I forget that I actually have to pay for stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Settemio Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 would be cool if you could get a reverse Blowfish.I am 99% sure you can. It can't reduce the Alarm Level, but it can turn the tracker back by 1 to 4 points if you're that far into the current Alarm Level. I believe it's happened to me once out of the whole time I've been playing, but I could be confusing it with my time playing Early Access versions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberboy2000 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I am 99% sure you can. It can't reduce the Alarm Level, but it can turn the tracker back by 1 to 4 points if you're that far into the current Alarm Level. I believe it's happened to me once out of the whole time I've been playing, but I could be confusing it with my time playing Early Access versions. No. There is exactly three reverse daemons. Attunement, order and fortune.If you need proof:local REVERSE_DAEMONS ={ "order", "attune", "energize",} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Settemio Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 No. There is exactly three reverse daemons. Attunement, order and fortune.If you need proof:local REVERSE_DAEMONS ={ "order", "attune", "energize",}Alright, I guess it was something else. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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