Improved Swamps + Less Reliance on Rabbit Meat

[vorpalmusic]

The swamps are probably the least compelling places in the game as of now. There is very little in the way of resources and they are filled with very dangerous tentacles. I think I may have something that could be a partial solution to this problem, and another problem at the same time.

It has been observed by many that there is too much reliance on rabbit-hunting, and if all the posts can be believed the devs have even implemented some punishments for eating too many rabbits. The problem is not with the rabbits, however; the problem is that other types of meat are not rewarding enough. Birds are very unrewarding because they are essentially the same as rabbits but require silk to trap. Turkeys must be chased half way across the world and drop almost nothing (I think there should be a more fun way to kill turkeys too...sleeping darts probably work but are way too costly to be worth it).

What if fish could also be used as fertilizer? I have only created two randomized worlds so far, but in both the Beefalo and the Pigs were extremely far from my starting point, which means farming seemed nearly impossible to me until I learned to survive for like 30 days.

Right now, I avoid the swamps at all cost but if fish could be used as fertilizer as well as being eaten, I would make regular fishing trips and I would consequently rely less on constant rabbit killing.

This is just one tiny adjustment, however. I think the swamps need more than this--some other resources or any kind of reason to go there at all, and I think there needs to be a more compelling reason to hunt birds as well.

Any thoughts?

[Ora]

I disagree that there is no reason to visit a swamp. Firstly, many useful items require reeds to construct. Secondly, tentacles drop the tentacle spike which is currently the most powerful weapon in the game. They are stationary and rather easy to dodge or just plain avoid if you are paying attention. Tentacles also do not respawn at the moment, so once you've cleared one it's gone forever. Finally, frogs are easy as pie to kill and give you frog legs, which when dropped into a crock pot with fillers gives you either kabobs or a froggie bunwich. The froggie bunwich restores quite a lot of health AND hunger, right up there with honeyed ham. I have actually developed a habit of hunting frogs for their meat to make into sandwiches. So, we have three reasons to enter swamps: Reeds, frog legs, and tentacle spikes.

[DJoyzM]

I feel that the swamp is good as it is o.o But being the most dangerous biome currently is kinda not challenging at all lol

I pretty much rely on crops instead of Jackalopes once I get the farm going

[Ora]

I personally never relied on jackalopes. I would whack them when I got a chance early game, yeah, but with the frequency that I found seeds and berries, I never really needed to hunt. I did have a bit of a freakout when I learned about Krampus, but that was mostly because at the time with what I knew I thought it was outrageous to punish people for hunting in a game about survival.

[genocide]

I only ever relied on rabbit meat for the first 4-7 days. After that, i went to Beefalo. Beefalo drop a ton of huge pieces of meat, and not just morsels. If you hunt beefalo for a full in game day, you can usually survive off of the meat for 2 weeks of in game time.

[Chesska]

My thoughts?

I got by fine eating seeds and berries until I got a crock pot at which point I stewed my seeds and berries with carrots and monster meat.

My suggestion for you?

Spiders.

Spider Dens are fairly plentiful and each spider drops monster meat. Cooking it in the crock pot removes the poisonous effects and if you dampen it with petals it can even heal you.

The issue here isn't with the game, in my opinion.

[vorpalmusic]

"The issue here isn't with the game, in my opinion."

I don't need suggestions on how to survive; it's trivially easy to survive forever after exploring the game for about a day (a real day, not an in-game day).

I'm trying to say that the swamp is not a compelling location to be in--the least of all possible biomes. The best response I've seen here listed only three reasons to go there, and all are basically "higher-level" reasons--even the frog hunting, because it's not better than any other food until you have a crock pot.

The "meadows" biome is overflowing with diversity and possibility compared to the swamp. Because of farming, foraging, rabbits, birds and bees it would be simple to never leave the meadows at all. In fact, I've once passed 60 days without ever once leaving the meadow and then quit from boredom--wouldn't it be great if the other biomes were equally compelling?

I've seen a comment from the devs that we will never have houses because people will turtle and that goes against the spirit of the game. But everyone here just builds a farm and turtles. The reason is because there is not enough diversity of possibility in the other biomes.

Has anyone here actually made a real base in the swamp? Ever?

How about the rocky biome? I'm not talking about a semi-permanent outpost where you mine for a week and then drag it back to your real base. The rocky biome is lacking diversity as well.

[vorpalmusic]

Just to be clear, I think this game is amazing, possibly the best $12 I've ever spent on a video game, and I realize it's not finished.

I'm just putting out some suggestions, like everyone else here.

[Enchanter]

I agree completely with this. Right now it's like:

*Sees a swamp*

"No thank you..."

I think there should be an extremely necessary resource found in swamps. A player can live without reeds, tentacle spikes, frog legs, and fish for the entirety of their lives, but I think this should not be.

Something that every player would want... something that, when named, would immidietly bring up swamps...

Crocodiles? My idea is getting a tad off topic, but crodociles seems very fitting for a swamp. Although I have no idea how they would be implemented, as the ponds as so tiny and crocodiles are so large.

Perhaps fishing would cause a chance for a crocodile to burst up and chase you on land? Crocodile hide is very tough (*hints at armor*) and their teeth are pretty sharp (*hints at weapon*).

[mobius187]

The swamps are probably the least compelling places in the game as of now. There is very little in the way of resources and they are filled with very dangerous tentacles. I think I may have something that could be a partial solution to this problem, and another problem at the same time.

Right now the swamp if a dangerous biome because of the tentacles, but I wouldn't have it any other way because it makes the swamp biome that much different than other biomes. Right now the swamp have two resources not found in any other biome, the ponds (for fishing) and the reeds, required for papyrus/bird cage and blow darts. The fact that reeds only grow in swamps gives me another reason to travel there, but not stick around.

It has been observed by many that there is too much reliance on rabbit-hunting, and if all the posts can be believed the devs have even implemented some punishments for eating too many rabbits.

Right now hunting too many rabbits draws the wrath of the Krampus, mostly because you now kill the rabbit by hand even with traps.

The problem is not with the rabbits, however; the problem is that other types of meat are not rewarding enough. Birds are very unrewarding because they are essentially the same as rabbits but require silk to trap.

Is this an issue? I don't know. I have tons of silk that I harvested from spiders thanks to the pig man village I constructed near them. So for me it's no real concern, and besides, you also get feathers useful for blow darts and the feathered hat.

Turkeys must be chased half way across the world and drop almost nothing (I think there should be a more fun way to kill turkeys too...sleeping darts probably work but are way too costly to be worth it).

The smart option is to build your base camp near the edge of an island and re-plant the berry bushes along the edge. That way when the Gobbler appears you can easily pin it to the edge of the island and kill it. The sleeping dart works too, but you don't need it if you follow my advice.

What if fish could also be used as fertilizer?

Why only fish? In another thread about adding rot to the game it was suggested that all rotted foods could be repurposed as fertilizer.

I have only created two randomized worlds so far, but in both the Beefalo and the Pigs were extremely far from my starting point, which means farming seemed nearly impossible to me until I learned to survive for like 30 days.

The maps are created randomly. For me the beefalo were one island over, while the pig men were the farthest.

Right now, I avoid the swamps at all cost but if fish could be used as fertilizer as well as being eaten, I would make regular fishing trips and I would consequently rely less on constant rabbit killing.

I would still visit swamps for the reeds. Not to mention killing a tentacle will net you a spikey stick. While it takes me longer I usually kite spiders into tentacles to get them to do my job for me.

This is just one tiny adjustment, however. I think the swamps need more than this--some other resources or any kind of reason to go there at all, and I think there needs to be a more compelling reason to hunt birds as well.

Personally I don't need compelling reasons to visit any biome. Some biomes could, and maybe should, not be hospitable to us. I mean, look at the real world. There are lots of places people wouldn't want to live, so why can't there be biomes like that in Don't Starve? Places that are just plain horrible... but you have to pass through them to get to other places or because there's a resource only found there.

"The issue here isn't with the game, in my opinion."

Fair enough. We all have suggestions, and I'm sure we'll all find both points that we agree, as well as disagree, on.

I'm trying to say that the swamp is not a compelling location to be in--the least of all possible biomes. The best response I've seen here listed only three reasons to go there, and all are basically "higher-level" reasons--even the frog hunting, because it's not better than any other food until you have a crock pot.

Frogs are another reason. So we have ponds (fish), reeds, frogs (frog legs), and tentacles (spots/spikey stick). I think that's a lot of unique reasons to visit the swamp. I mean, these are all the reasons I go there, even though the tentacles make it dangerous.

The "meadows" biome is overflowing with diversity and possibility compared to the swamp. Because of farming, foraging, rabbits, birds and bees it would be simple to never leave the meadows at all. In fact, I've once passed 60 days without ever once leaving the meadow and then quit from boredom--wouldn't it be great if the other biomes were equally compelling?

You can farm on almost any biome... although I haven't tried to in the swamp. The same is true for foraging, with certain resources varying depending on the biome. For example berry bushes and saplings are common in forests and meadows, but not grasslands. While the opposite is true for grass. I could go on, but I'm sure you know that every biome has its pros and cons.

You are free to make suggestions on new biomes or changes to existing biomes. Let us know what you think.

I've seen a comment from the devs that we will never have houses because people will turtle and that goes against the spirit of the game. But everyone here just builds a farm and turtles. The reason is because there is not enough diversity of possibility in the other biomes.

There has to be more reasons to explore or travel the distance to other biomes. The irony here, the swamp is one of the few biomes I go out of my way to travel to so I can collect spikey sticks and reeds. Funny, right?

Has anyone here actually made a real base in the swamp? Ever?

Nope, and that's why I have to travel there. It gives me a reason not to just stay in my base camp where I have everything else, but the resources provided by the swamp. In fact, we need more places that have resources unique to a biome that we cannot simply "replant" at a base camp. I mean, you can't replant reeds so you have no choice but to travel to the swamp to harvest them.

How about the rocky biome? I'm not talking about a semi-permanent outpost where you mine for a week and then drag it back to your real base. The rocky biome is lacking diversity as well.

Well the rocky biome has the Tallbirds and boulders. Hence the rocky aspect of it. But feel free to make some suggestions. How do you think the biome could be improved?

[vorpalmusic]

Even though I rely primarily on rabbits for food, I have never once invoked the Krampus. I had to do an image search to know what you guys were talking about.

I'm not trying to say that the swamp should not be dangerous, that would be fine, but it's not even dangerous--the tentacles are stationary and log suits protect the occasional slip-up. The thing is, it's not interesting enough to be worth the annoyance of constantly avoiding tentacles...not to me anyway. None of the reed-produced items interest me, I've found it easy enough to kill everything in the game with a spear so have never even tried to obtain a spike tentacle, fish are not worth the effort (in my opinion) and frogs are so spread out that the legs also hardly interest me.

I'm only going to the trouble of explaining myself at this point because some of you are going to such great lengths to explain how this is a non-issue. But I suspect Enchanter and I are not the only players who feel like swamps could use some devly love.

I have listed a few ways here and elsewhere about how I think it could be improved. Make fish more worth the time sink and the expenditure of silk. Make ponds larger to vary the nearly uniform landscape and make frogs more plentiful around them. Add some kind of vegetable that can be picked, like dragon fruit, for instance, to match carrots in the meadows.

The rocky biome, now that we're discussing it, could use even more work. The tall birds are extremely cool, but how about some small animals like lizards and some kind of rocky vegetable or plants to be harvested. Aloe, for instance, maybe with healing properties, minor but better than 1 point flowers...

Diversity could only enrich the game and create more possibilities.

At any rate, I suspect a lot of diversity is coming in the next three months regardless of what anyone here says. I only learned today that there is THAT much development time left. In all likelihood, these biomes are unfinished and a lot of things will be added all over the place.

(At which time you guys can all tell the devs to delete that stuff, since apparently we don't need any of it ;P )

[mobius187]

Even though I rely primarily on rabbits for food, I have never once invoked the Krampus. I had to do an image search to know what you guys were talking about.

The Devs updated it so the Krampus doesn't appear as Soon, if you stagger your bunny-eating ways. Or at least that's how I read it.

The thing is, it's not interesting enough to be worth the annoyance of constantly avoiding tentacles...not to me anyway.

Well, to each his own is all I can say. Some things bother me that don't even bother other people.

None of the reed-produced items interest me, I've found it easy enough to kill everything in the game with a spear so have never even tried to obtain a spike tentacle, fish are not worth the effort (in my opinion) and frogs are so spread out that the legs also hardly interest me.

Have you tried the pan flute? I use it from time to time to deal with multiple Gobblers, should two or more spawn while harvesting berry bushes. It's a great way to deal with them.

I'm only going to the trouble of explaining myself at this point because some of you are going to such great lengths to explain how this is a non-issue. But I suspect Enchanter and I are not the only players who feel like swamps could use some devly love.

Well since the game is in Beta you are certainly free to add suggestions on how to improve swamps. let us know what you come up with and we'll discuss your ideas.

I have listed a few ways here and elsewhere about how I think it could be improved.

That was fast!

I'm responding to this post as I read it...

Make fish more worth the time sink and the expenditure of silk.

In what way? I would prefer if you didn't just point to something and declare it "broken" and then not offer any solution. How can it be broken if we have nothing "better" to compare it to? For me fishing works just fine, as I have silk up the wahzoo. Is that how it's spelt? Wahzoo? Meh.

Make ponds larger to vary the nearly uniform landscape

Agreed. I would like the ponds to be larger and more natural.

make frogs more plentiful around them.

Sure, why not? Right now each pond spawns one frog per day.

Add some kind of vegetable that can be picked, like dragon fruit, for instance, to match carrots in the meadows.

Right now the carrot is the "starter food" placed near the player when they start the game so they have a better chance of surviving. That's why the carrots are uncommon the farther you travel from the starting area. That said, I wouldn't mind more wild fruits or vegetables. What about potatoes?

The rocky biome, now that we're discussing it, could use even more work. The tall birds are extremely cool, but how about some small animals like lizards and some kind of rocky vegetable or plants to be harvested. Aloe, for instance, maybe with healing properties, minor but better than 1 point flowers...

Sure, why not lizards? And a plant that has medicinal properties wouldn't be bad.

At any rate, I suspect a lot of diversity is coming in the next three months regardless of what anyone here says. I only learned today that there is THAT much development time left. In all likelihood, these biomes are unfinished and a lot of things will be added all over the place.

Please keep in mind that most players want new content, but the way you presented your argument was almost like a complaint, "The swamps are broken! They suck!", so other forums members who didn't agree argued with you over that fact. Now if you had come in with suggestions on how to improve swamps then I could see things as having moved along more smoothly. I for one am always interested in new ideas. Whether I agree with them all is open to debate, but then, those are my opinions.

[vorpalmusic]

Please keep in mind that most players want new content, but the way you presented your argument was almost like a complaint, "The swamps are broken! They suck!", so other forums members who didn't agree argued with you over that fact. Now if you had come in with suggestions on how to improve swamps then I could see things as having moved along more smoothly.

>> >>

I never declared anything broken, nor sucky, and I suggested that fish could also be used as fertilizer, like manure can. Lacking immediate ideas on further ways to make the swamps as compelling as the meadows, I tried to politely open the subject to group discussion.

I get the strong impression that you haven't really read what I wrote from the way you describe it.

[mobius187]

I get the strong impression that you haven't really read what I wrote from the way you describe it.

No, you most certainly did not declare it, but to me there was a negative tone present, shown with your comment: "The swamps are probably the least compelling places in the game as of now...". I was just trying to indicate to you why some forum members might have disagreed with you, and it having nothing to do with your suggestions.

If you'll note I provided responses to all your suggestions in the previous page, so yes, I did read your initial post.

[vorpalmusic]

"I was just trying to indicate to you why some forum members might have disagreed with you, and it having nothing to do with your suggestions."

No, you explicitly said that I didn't make any suggestions, and suggested that's why it came off as a complaint to you.

"Now if you had come in with suggestions on how to improve swamps then I could see things as having moved along more smoothly."

Twice.

"In what way? I would prefer if you didn't just point to something and declare it "broken" and then not offer any solution."

It's ok though. I don't really think this discussion is productive.

Edited December 19, 2012 by vorpalmusic

[Ora]

I can't help but feel someone in this thread is being a little overly defensive.

[mobius187]

No, you explicitly said that I didn't make any suggestions, and suggested that's why it came off as a complaint to you.

I believe it was my use of the word "argument", which was incorrect. It must have been late and in my mind I only recalled the negative tone of your initial post. As such, I'll apologize if I offended you. After all this is derailing your thread. Let's focus back on your suggestions.

It's ok though. I don't really think this discussion is productive.

True. We should focus on your suggestions. Perhaps you could tell us more about why you feel using fish as fertilizer works? As I understand it manure is highly under-utilized now that farm plots do not need it between harvests.

I can't help but feel someone in this thread is being a little overly defensive.

It happens, but even so, I should avoid derailing other people's topics.

[vorpalmusic]

Mobius, thanks for your comments.

At this point I think the same ideas are being more productively discussed by greater numbers of people in the Seeds, Wild Plants, and Farming thread.

http://forums.kleientertainment.com/showthread.php?4405-Seeds-Wild-Plants-and-Farming-Overhaul-Suggestion

[mobius187]

Mobius, thanks for your comments.

At this point I think the same ideas are being more productively discussed by greater numbers of people in the Seeds, Wild Plants, and Farming thread.

http://forums.kleientertainment.com/showthread.php?4405-Seeds-Wild-Plants-and-Farming-Overhaul-Suggestion

Ah yes, I also discovered that thread and found it to be filled with lots of interesting suggestions.

[jujubomber]

Turkeys must be chased half way across the world and drop almost nothing (I think there should be a more fun way to kill turkeys too...sleeping darts probably work but are way too costly to be worth it).

I agree, fun ways to kill is always fun. How about an item: a mask that looks like a Gobbler Face, which you can then use along with any weapon of choice and do a ritual dance to attract the Gobblers to you in a trance. Then your character will slice/stab/strangle the Gobbler at the end of the dance though strangling would give naughty points.

What if fish could also be used as fertilizer?

That could work. Additionally, you could maybe create Oil from the fish? Use it as another source of fuel? Cooking ingredient? (Fry up some bacon, turn potatoes into Fries, eat all the fatty foods away from civilization)And burn it off before you get a heart attack or something.

Maybe use it as a trap ingredient?

Add some kind of vegetable that can be picked, like dragon fruit, for instance, to match carrots in the meadows.

I agree with having a pickable crop native to the swamp biome, but I don't think it should be dragon fruit. It's a type of cactus so I think a desert type biome would be more suited. Other crops on the other hand...Rice could be added maybe?

The rocky biome, now that we're discussing it, could use even more work. The tall birds are extremely cool, but how about some small animals like lizards and some kind of rocky vegetable or plants to be harvested. Aloe, for instance, maybe with healing properties, minor but better than 1 point flowers...

Yeah, I found the rocky biomes to be a bit boring (unless escaping from angry Tallbirds after raiding their nests.) Aloe sounds good, not sure if they normally grow in that type of environment but for now I'll say yes to that. Also I'm all for the addition of lizards. Maybe a giant centipede as well?

I believe I commented on everything I wanted?

[mobius187]

I agree, fun ways to kill is always fun. How about an item: a mask that looks like a Gobbler Face, which you can then use along with any weapon of choice and do a ritual dance to attract the Gobblers to you in a trance. Then your character will slice/stab/strangle the Gobbler at the end of the dance though strangling would give naughty points.

Well right now we already have the blow darts (sleep variety) and the pan flute. If you use either on the Gobbler it immediately falls asleep. From that point using a spear on it is a one-hit kill.

I agree with having a pickable crop native to the swamp biome, but I don't think it should be dragon fruit. It's a type of cactus so I think a desert type biome would be more suited. Other crops on the other hand...Rice could be added maybe?

Agreed, the dragon fruit commonly grows in tropical climates with moderate rain (as per wikipedia). I did however spend a few minutes searching for something that could grow in a swamp biome and came up with a few "edible" options: Watercress, Blackberries, Lotus Root, Cranberries, and maybe even Asperagus.

Maybe a giant centipede as well?

Wouldn't a giant centipede be best suited for a jungle/tropical biome?

In terms of suggestions, I believe MilleniumEarl suggested in another thread that a "giant rock turtle" could exist in this biome. It would do nothing all day except sleep, until the player tried to "mine" it (since it's shell appears to be a boulder) at which point it would awaken and attack the player.

[jujubomber]

Well right now we already have the blow darts (sleep variety) and the pan flute. If you use either on the Gobbler it immediately falls asleep. From that point using a spear on it is a one-hit kill.

Awww, so no watching Wilson do a silly dance then?

In terms of suggestions, I believe MilleniumEarl suggested in another thread that a "giant rock turtle" could exist in this biome. It would do nothing all day except sleep, until the player tried to "mine" it (since it's shell appears to be a boulder) at which point it would awaken and attack the player.

Sounds pretty cool. Could be a snapping turtle of sorts? It would give the turtle extra range since I expect it would be super slow.

[mobius187]

Awww, so no watching Wilson do a silly dance then?

If you want silly dances just hang around the pig men long enough...

Sounds pretty cool. Could be a snapping turtle of sorts? It would give the turtle extra range since I expect it would be super slow.

Sure, why not?