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hatem

Door Trick / Overwatch Exploit

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hatem    30

Basically when you know guards are going to find you soon you place an agent in front of the door they're going to come in. They open the door and you close it over and over until the rest of your agents escape/ complete the objective. Then you just escape with the last agent. This works until the kill on sight bug kicks in and you have to revive the agent.

It's kinda hard to stop using this in game because it's so powerful but I really do feel the game gets boring and wish it was limited somehow.

I think this idea from another post I made about clean up missions could be used to limit this exploit.
 

Now that I think about it, The whole clean up cost could be just replaced by cleanup missions / high profile, low profile points.
 
Each agent could have a "profile" meter that keeps going up each time he/she:

  • shoots someone
  • is spotted by a camera
  • is caught by security while hacking a console
  • is seen by a guard (overwatch)
  • anything else that could leave a trace
And when it reaches a certain point you have to do one of the following:
  • stop using the agent for a few missions until his profile goes back to low
  • use the agent anyway but if a guard sees him he's getting shot on the spot no chance of escape
  • do a clean up mission to get the agents profile back to low
the locations of the clean up missions could depend on how the agent wasn't keeping a low profile:
  • A hospital where they take the guard bodies for post mortem examination (killing too many people)
  • A camera backup data center (getting spotted on camera too much)
  • A digital forensic science lab (getting caught by security hacking consoles)
  • Investigation agency (getting spotted by guards)
Ultimately all of this is done to encourage us to play more stealthily but we should still have the option to play in our own style.
I don't think the 50$ clean up cost is pushing us enough to do that, but limiting our agents might.

 


I think this could work because each time the guard opens the door the agent's meter would go up and you really don't want the meter to fill up if it means you're unable to use said agent in the next mission / said agent would be killed on sight (hence not allowing him to use the door trick again).

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jimwinsor    8

I don't really see one agent holding up one guard this way much of an exploit, seeing as you can do the same thing by KOing a guard, then dragging his body around (with the extra added advantage of some mobility).

 

Now if more than one guard was coming through a door, maybe, but how often does that happen?

 

Conceptually, this can be seen as an agent holding the door shut, which to me doesn't seem wholly unrealistic. The solution, then, would be to change the guard AI to seek a way around when this happens.

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GeorgeStorm    8

I don't really see one agent holding up one guard this way much of an exploit, seeing as you can do the same thing by KOing a guard, then dragging his body around (with the extra added advantage of some mobility).

 

Now if more than one guard was coming through a door, maybe, but how often does that happen?

 

Conceptually, this can be seen as an agent holding the door shut, which to me doesn't seem wholly unrealistic. The solution, then, would be to change the guard AI to seek a way around when this happens. 

I was assuming it could be used on multiple guards.

 

Even with the one, if the agent was holding the door shut, the guard would then start shooting through the door I would imagine, or find a way round.

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Yarrr    19

Well it's an exploit considering you're exploiting their poor AI. You just enter a neverending cycle between opening and closing said door. It can be handy if you're waiting for a cooldown on a Disruptor so you can get past for instance.

Is not easy to fix either. If the door closing action causes a reaction shot, you can just step to the side, out of vision, and then close. The only way I could see would be for the guard to be able to blow the door of its hinges if this happens.

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Palpetinus    839

Kinda confused where the strategy/exploit line is on this one too.

 

(Yes I am admitting i don't know, it happens :-) )

 

It's simple. A is agent. _ is door, G is guard. If they stand like that:

 

G

_

A

 

Then the guard will always open the door and go into overwatch in their turn. Once it's your turn again you can close the door, making the guard lose sight. In the guard's turn he will attempt to follow the agent, opening the door. He immediately spots the agent again and we're in the same situation once more. Close the door, repeat.

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Palpetinus    839

Another post because another type of answer!

As a fix, I would suggest making a door unable to close if a guard opened it in the previous turn and is still standing at the door. Because really, a trained guard won't let anyone close a door into his face :grin:

 

 

Oh I got it, I mean I don't know if it's strategy or exploit. 

 

Dammit, excuse the misunderstanding then.

I'd say exploit. Everything that can stop an enemy infinitely without any risk (beside a bug) shouldn't exist, imo.

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hatem    30

I think it's an exploit because you can KO all the guards for that matter and drag them to a room with one door / an area of the map you already explored with one door leading to the other area of the map and just leave one agent standing there. you can easily explore the entire map that way until additional guards come in the elevator. Sometimes they come on the other side of the door in the area you already explored.

 

for example:

post-445506-0-92095400-1411492294_thumb.

  1. your agents KO 2 guards and drag them to the blue room
  2. the pink agent hold the guards in that room
  3. the purple agent KO the guards in the purple room and drags them to the green room
  4. the pink agent then stands where the gray arrow points and locks all 4 guards
  5. the purple agent explores the purple areas and anywhere they lead 
  6. the purple agent finds a guard knocks him out and leaves him there
  7. the pink and purple agents move to the orange room now locking 5 guards behind..

this becomes a lot easier if you have more than 2 agents. you simply KO guards leave them behind and lock the door moving one room at a time.

 

I'm not sure if I explained it well but it pretty much means you'll never get caught. I'll try to post a screenshot from the game demonstrating this later. 

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WillySunny    10

Well, if the guard behind the guard behind the door saw the agent and go overwatch, I thought if you just close the door, it still wouldn't cancel the effect?

 

so when the guard by the door opened up, the guard behind him should fire?

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JimThePea    53

Perhaps alarmed guards could kick open doors or shoot through doors if the last known position of an agent is directly on the other side of that door, KOing or killing any agent there.

 

Anything that can kill an unseen agent on the guard turn has the potential to cause grief, but maybe there could be something similar to an interest point that tells players (on any difficulty) that on the guard turn you don't want to be on the other side if that door.

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hatem    30

Perhaps alarmed guards could kick open doors or shoot through doors if the last known position of an agent is directly on the other side of that door, KOing or killing any agent there.

 

Anything that can kill an unseen agent on the guard turn has the potential to cause grief, but maybe there could be something similar to an interest point that tells players (on any difficulty) that on the guard turn you don't want to be on the other side if that door.

 

I feel like you should still be able to use this trick but not infinitely.  I don't think the guards shooting thought doors is a good idea because it would change the gameplay too much (do we get to shoot guards through doors too?). 

 

I like how the alarm level makes you not wait around and take risks more, but when you really need to just wait a turn you can. I feel that this is how this should be handled. the gameplay should remain exactly the same but it would cost you something to just stand behind the door. Not raising the alarm per se but something similar maybe?

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JimThePea    53

I feel like you should still be able to use this trick but not infinitely.  I don't think the guards shooting thought doors is a good idea because it would change the gameplay too much (do we get to shoot guards through doors too?). 

 

I like how the alarm level makes you not wait around and take risks more, but when you really need to just wait a turn you can. I feel that this is how this should be handled. the gameplay should remain exactly the same but it would cost you something to just stand behind the door. Not raising the alarm per se but something similar maybe?

 

I get your point about it changing gameplay but that's kind of the point, the gameplay is already changed because if it's the difference between clearing a level and dying, you might use this exploit and it removes a lot of gameplay.

 

I'm not suggesting that shooting through doors is a great idea, but just because something changes the gameplay to remove an exploit doesn't mean it wouldn't be an improvement in itself. I'm sure there's going be a few gameplay-changing adjustments before the game leaves beta, just like the removal of interest points in the last update.

 

When I think of costs for doing something, I think AP, PWR and money, it doesn't make sense to lose any of those for standing behind a door, you always have to bear in mind the gameplay implications, but the options still come down to what's going to make sense for a guard to do in that situation. In my opinion, the penalty has to be contextual, it has to involve the guard by the door and/or the agent on the other side.

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hatem    30

I get your point about it changing gameplay but that's kind of the point, the gameplay is already changed because if it's the difference between clearing a level and dying, you might use this exploit and it removes a lot of gameplay.

 

I'm not suggesting that shooting through doors is a great idea, but just because something changes the gameplay to remove an exploit doesn't mean it wouldn't be an improvement in itself. I'm sure there's going be a few gameplay-changing adjustments before the game leaves beta, just like the removal of interest points in the last update.

 

When I think of costs for doing something, I think AP, PWR and money, it doesn't make sense to lose any of those for standing behind a door, you always have to bear in mind the gameplay implications, but the options still come down to what's going to make sense for a guard to do in that situation. In my opinion, the penalty has to be contextual, it has to involve the guard by the door and/or the agent on the other side.

 

I agree... 

 

Well then I go back to my original idea of having some kind of meter for each agent that goes up when they're seen. and if it fills up then they're getting shot in the next overwatch immediately. It seems like a contextual enough penalty. You're not keeping a low profile, you're showing your face to everyone, they put you on high alert and orders are given to shoot on sight anyone matching your description. 

The meter can go down every couple of turns as long as you're not seen. 

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I don't consider this an exploit. Sure it is an effective way to avoid/stall guards but it also requires an agent to do practically nothing for the time that you are using it. You pay for it because time continues to pass (usually bringing more guards to you that you will have to eventually deal with) and you are not using said agent to explore, get loot, or work towards mission objectives. I use this trick often so I might be biased, but there are definitely times where you literally have to use this trick or your agent will get shot. 

 

As far as I understand it, the idea that guards can't shoot you unless they are in overwatch is to portray that your agents are elite. Your agents are better trained than the guards, hence they can shoot first in a situation of equal discovery, and can move to cover faster than the guard can shoot them as long as cover is close.

 

I think your profile idea is interesting and creative, but has no spot for it in this game. The guards don't have to recognize you to know that you aren't allowed in the building. If you are not a guard you are not allowed in the building, they don't need to see you three times prior to know that you should be detained/dealt with.

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jimwinsor    8

Yeah the example above is a dream scenario, where guards and rooms randomly align to make it possible. So, I don't see it as an exploit, but rather, a golden strategic opportunity that will reward a good player who spots it.

 

Like I said before, conceptually, I see the whole opening/closing door situation as your agent holding the door shut and/or preventing the knob from turning, which if we assume the doors are bulletproof, is not a wholly unrealistic thing to imagine.

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hatem    30

shalem and banks block the doors

post-445506-0-34700600-1411590125_thumb.

 

internationale, banks and deckard block the doors

post-445506-0-06558900-1411590121_thumb.

 

internationale, deckard and shalem block the doors

post-445506-0-59606700-1411590115_thumb.

 

deckard and shalem stay and close the doors on guards while the rest of the team gets in the elevator.

post-445506-0-71602200-1411590110_thumb.

 

deckard goes to the elevator, shalem gets shot on purpose and banks drags him to the elevator. (the only way to get all 4 agents and the hostage as far as I know).

post-445506-0-89559100-1411590104_thumb.

 

 

I don't think there's a way to lose playing this way and for me that qualifies as an exploit

 

Edit: you can also see that you don't need more than 2 agents to block the doors in most cases but I block with more just in case. also, this was a relatively bad map for this exploit since the hostage was on one end and the elevator all the way back near the spawn room which meant I had to go back where I came from and couldn't just block the guards from one way, but its still perfectly doable.

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hatem    30

I don't consider this an exploit. Sure it is an effective way to avoid/stall guards but it also requires an agent to do practically nothing for the time that you are using it. You pay for it because time continues to pass (usually bringing more guards to you that you will have to eventually deal with) and you are not using said agent to explore, get loot, or work towards mission objectives. I use this trick often so I might be biased, but there are definitely times where you literally have to use this trick or your agent will get shot. 

 

As far as I understand it, the idea that guards can't shoot you unless they are in overwatch is to portray that your agents are elite. Your agents are better trained than the guards, hence they can shoot first in a situation of equal discovery, and can move to cover faster than the guard can shoot them as long as cover is close.

 

I think your profile idea is interesting and creative, but has no spot for it in this game. The guards don't have to recognize you to know that you aren't allowed in the building. If you are not a guard you are not allowed in the building, they don't need to see you three times prior to know that you should be detained/dealt with.

 

You're right about the opening/closing door situation. I didn't see it that way before. I thought it was like "hands in the air" kinda situation which I guess doesn't make much sense since they always shoot the next round. 

 

Yeah the example above is a dream scenario, where guards and rooms randomly align to make it possible. So, I don't see it as an exploit, but rather, a golden strategic opportunity that will reward a good player who spots it.

 

Like I said before, conceptually, I see the whole opening/closing door situation as your agent holding the door shut and/or preventing the knob from turning, which if we assume the doors are bulletproof, is not a wholly unrealistic thing to imagine.

 

In the drawing I was merely trying to illustrate the idea behind the exploit. you can see in the screenshots above that I can do it with any map even a less than Ideal one.  

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Nwardezir    3

deckard goes to the elevator, shalem gets shot on purpose and banks drags him to the elevator. (the only way to get all 4 agents and the hostage as far as I know).

 

Usually, I let the "hostage" go first and use elevator, alone. Next turn, elevator is closed, busy and the turn after, elevator is back, doors open and I take it with my 4 agents.

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hatem    30

Usually, I let the "hostage" go first and use elevator, alone. Next turn, elevator is closed, busy and the turn after, elevator is back, doors open and I take it with my 4 agents.

 

Cool! I didn't know you could do that I always assumed from the "Are you sure you want to leave X behind?" dialog that the elevator works only once.

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JimThePea    53

Great to see some pictures of it in action, there's definitely a problem here, it's easily done once you know how and it doesn't require a particular layout, I wonder if there's any levels it can't be done on.

 

Shutting a door in a guards face to escape, ducking behind a desk to escape, outdrawing a guard when they already had a gun pointed at you = Very cool, very spy

 

Closing a door on a guard over and over and over = Very boring, very stupid

 

Back to ideas for fixing this, I think Exophthalmos is right in saying that guards already know you shouldn't be there and elite agents should have faster reflexes than guards. I also think anything that makes it possible for guards to spot you and kill you in the same enemy turn is just going to piss people off. As the profile idea applies to more than just excessive doorplay, you could end up with players that have just gotten into a sticky situation, as we all do, being punished further by having to completely avoid being seen by alerted guards.

 

I would prefer something simpler like the idea of the agent trying to keep the door closed while the guard is shoulder bashing it, once it starts, a countdown appears, if your agent moves then the door will open on the next enemy turn, but if they are still there when the countdown ends, the door opens and they're toast.

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mruhlin    0

Probably a fairly simple fix to this would be to say that when a guard is standing next to a door and looking through it, you can't close it.  He's right there, holding it open.

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jamesl    173

We've been talking about this a lot in the office. Keep the discussion going, but we're planning on trying out a few possible balance changes here in an attempt to get a good mix of elegance in our solution to this exploit. 

 

Some things we're considering trying (some inspired by this thread): guards holding open doors, guards kicking down doors if you close them in their face, etc. 

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I still contend this is a non-issue. While I get the opportunity to use this "trick" often in my games I choose to do so rarely. In almost all situations you will pay a price for doing so, sometimes the price is worth it, most of the time (imo) it isn't.

 

While I appreciate the effort that went into your example with all the screenshots, from what little i can gather that is a scenario (a zoomed out incognita screenshot would have been very helpful) you could easily have won just knocking guards out and having a couple agents pin 2 each. Throw paralyzer into the mix and it is even easier. You could also have tucked deckard aside from the elevator a bit, escaped with 3 plus prisoner and than cloaked to win. When your agents are that decked (heh) out you don't need a door gimmick to win. Heck I once escaped an elevator having left 8 unconscious guards just outside of it.

 

I dunno, maybe I am in the minority here. Maybe I'll make a conscious effort to try and "abuse" the trick and see if I feel it helps my runs.

 

It is nice to see some Klei presence on the forums. I would especially like to see it in the bugs forum, even if it's just a quick acknowledgement that they have seen the report and a quick sentence on the status of the bug. 

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