Why boss hp scaling doesn't work (in dst)

[Hi.]

I've seen many people over the years talk about boss hp scaling in dst and while it would be nice, it just wouldn't work. For example, if there are 12 people on a server and some people want to go fight dragon fly, there is a high chance that most people wouldn't help because they either dont know how to or don't want to. There are many more problems along with the fact people can just leave the server mid fight or run away from the boss.

Now even if they somehow figured out a way to scale the boss' hp based on nearby players rather than the total amount of players in the server there is still the problem that some people could just show up to the boss and not help causing someone to solo deerclops with 8,000 hp. (I assume that this hp scaling system would also be really clunky and hard to make work)

That's just why I think it wouldn't fit im sure the devs have a more logical explanation.

[Jussatoon]

Boss-scaling also usually works under the assumption that everyone, for the most part, is playing the same character, so that their power-levels are relatively the same. 

For Don't Starve Elsewhere, this is likely because, from what we've seen from the trailer, every character featured pretty much fights the same way. If there are more characters included in the future, they'll likely be reworked to be more simplified. 

For Don't Starve Together, every character has varying degrees of power, to the point where scaling based on player amount wouldn't work. Even if they figured out how to scale based on each character involved, that's not likely to work either since skilltrees allow you to customize however you want, and you can't expect everyone to be playing the most optimal loadout. 

[YouKnowWho142]

I've said it before, but i think it can work as a toggleable option that is disabled by default. I've started playing with an hp scaling mod recently, not a mod that lowers hp (since all boss hp feels balanced for solo), one that increases hp so that bosses can have more hp and can actually stand up to more than 2 players without instantly dying. Skill trees feel great as a solo player, but in a group the maximum power is now just so high that there isn't any boss in the game that can keep up with 3 or more competent players.

You're right though, it operates under the assumption that everybody is participating in every boss fight together. For a public server especially that isn't at all reasonable. For me and my friends' sort of playstyle though where we always come back together for bosses having higher boss hp would be really nice, though it's not something I'd feel bad about if they never added it seeing as I'm just using a mod to do it anyways.

[Ridley]

My suggestion for boss scaling has always been focused on DPS output, inspired from the Dragonfly stun mechanic. If the player(s) hit an high threshold for DPS, then the boss enrages/panics and changes tactics/stats a bit. As a reward for pushing a boss into a more dangerous form, you get extra loot to share with other players. 

I think I heard WARBOT actually has some version checking DPS and enraging? I never see it myself since I only fight it alone and without crazy damage.

Anyway, people tell me my idea punishes them for trying to speedrun. I would put the DPS threshold higher than a normal Wolfgang can achieve so that wouldn't be a concern. Gunpowder can create a momentary jump in DPS, but if explosive damage is treated as a special exception, then I think that would that work out fine.

[Wawchik]

2 hours ago, Jussatoon said:

Boss-scaling also usually works under the assumption that everyone, for the most part, is playing the same character, so that their power-levels are relatively the same. 

For Don't Starve Elsewhere, this is likely because, from what we've seen from the trailer, every character featured pretty much fights the same way. If there are more characters included in the future, they'll likely be reworked to be more simplified. 

For Don't Starve Together, every character has varying degrees of power, to the point where scaling based on player amount wouldn't work. Even if they figured out how to scale based on each character involved, that's not likely to work either since skilltrees allow you to customize however you want, and you can't expect everyone to be playing the most optimal loadout. 

Would Wes be an exception if they did somehow figure out a way to perfectly scale bosses? Because, you know, he's picked for how weak he is. I just don't see the issue here, like sure, 5 Wes's would be way weaker than 5 Wolfgangs, but scaling off of power levels completely removes any reason to pick Wolfgang for example, since the boss is just gonna be scaled higher, which was mentioned a lot under Mike's post as well

[Jussatoon]

33 minutes ago, Wawchik said:

Would Wes be an exception if they did somehow figure out a way to perfectly scale bosses? Because, you know, he's picked for how weak he is. I just don't see the issue here, like sure, 5 Wes's would be way weaker than 5 Wolfgangs, but scaling off of power levels completely removes any reason to pick Wolfgang for example, since the boss is just gonna be scaled higher, which was mentioned a lot under Mike's post as well

I think @Ridley's take on boss-scaling would be the best way to go about it. The only issue I can see with it is the possibpossibility of a boss being close to dead, if not dead already, by the time it detects the damage threshold, which could maybe be solved by the boss temporarily obtaining high enough damage reduction until the damage subsidies. 

[AliceShiki]

3 hours ago, Hi. said:

For example, if there are 12 people on a server

... The vanilla server cap is 6 though?

And yeah, like, I think it was discussed at length already in multiple threads about all the problems that enforced HP scaling would create... It wouldn't be a good idea. Hence why I agree with YouKnowWho142 that it should be something that is optional and disabled by default... Then it would work.

3 hours ago, Jussatoon said:

Boss-scaling also usually works under the assumption that everyone, for the most part, is playing the same character, so that their power-levels are relatively the same. 

For what it's worth, I think this assumption is actually unnecessary.

Like, yeah, someone may be playing Wolfgang, someone may be playing Wes and someone may be playing Wendy... Okay, that doesn't really create a problem. The boss can still have 3x HP and like... Wendy and Wolfgang will naturally contribute more than Wes, and that's fine, that would also happen with the baseline HP.

There are a lot of problems with enforced HP scaling (hence why I think it should be optional), but I don't think the Power Level of different party members being different is a real issue. It's just a part of the game, lower damage characters will contribute less and that is absolutely fine.

[YouKnowWho142]

3 hours ago, Jussatoon said:

For Don't Starve Together, every character has varying degrees of power, to the point where scaling based on player amount wouldn't work. Even if they figured out how to scale based on each character involved, that's not likely to work either since skilltrees allow you to customize however you want, and you can't expect everyone to be playing the most optimal loadout. 

The problem is that different characters having different amounts of dps is an inherent part of each of their kits. Higher dps characters should not be punished for just having a higher dps, it's just what they do and how they are intended to play. Giving bosses buffs such as damage resistance and attack scaling because a Wolfgang's damage output is much higher than Wilson or Woodie or Wormwood defeats the purpose of Wolfgang's high damage. We should not be trying to put the higher dps characters on the same level as the lower dps characters through punishing their high damage output because it diminishes the role and design they have built for themselves. It's okay for a dps focused character to deal more damage in a fight than other characters, that's the point.

[Pumking7]

3 hours ago, Hi. said:

That's just why I think it wouldn't fit im sure the devs have a more logical explanation.

I've always Klei just didn't want to go through the hassle and now its very late to try and make it work. Skill trees and character reworks caused the issue of power being more imbalanced between characters.

However I think an equally valid point is that out of most players that play DST most don't know how to optimize skill trees and make the most out of their kit. Due to each character having 2 massive updates all of this seems like information overload to just learn one character, let alone with a roster of 19 (20 if you like Wonkey). If a server has regular players using OP characters with skill trees I don't think it would change the power level too much, or maybe I underestimate the power of DST players too much? Also if skill trees existed this doesn't mean most players would not know which skills or strategies are optimal as DST isn't very intuitive like that, which is especially true for figuring out boss fights.

I do hope Don't Starve Elsewhere either doesn't have bosses whose health is too bloated or plays around with health scaling as I see this as Klei's chance to be more experimental and less heavy on "team focused goals" which always end up being bosses.

[Mike23Ua]

I just killed Celestial Champion, it took three real world days of continuous playing, learning its attack & kite patterns, and ultimately the most important part: Having a second person join my world as Wolfgang to insta nerf its health bar to Half.

I need you to understand just how many times we actually died and rolled back over the span of three real human days.. there are so many problems with this game right now… this fight was NOT Fun.. it was slightly more do-able with a second player in my world to nerf the CC health by half just by breathing in its direction.

But OTHER factors go into play too such as: When CC try’s to run away from the player in Phase 3 you can actually catch up to and hit it when another player causes it to “Flee” into your direction.

I would NEVER be able to kill this thing Solo… It feels good to finally have “Lunar Affinity” Skills unlocked, but does Klei actually expect anyone who plays the game mostly Solo to ever realistically reach this point of the game by themselves?

Sure I guess it’s Do-able if you have a lot of knowledge about the game, or bring a bunch of late game items to help, and a TON of healing items (or your just really good at not getting hit) but the skill threshold required is far too high for the “casual player” 

I also Colossally screwed myself and my friend over during this fight by crafting both Commander Helms AND Battle Helms (for some unknown god awful reason when your commander helms break it does not Auto Equip the inventory full of regular Battle Helms you have in 8 of your inventory slots maybe Klei should make that a QoL for Wigfrid players? ♥️) essentially: As soon as the commander helms broke (which the fight is so fast and chaotic that you can’t really see what’s going on unless you’ve spent THREE DAYS rolling back failure attempts then finally notice it) we were armorless and quickly killed even though we had complete inventory’s full of the lesser Helmets.

But one of the easiest things that could make fighting raid bosses in single player more manageable is if the bosses did not recover health and you can chip away at them at your own pace (retreating to recoup if needed)

Because when there’s 3 or more players there is no boss 😂😎

[Bumber64]

4 hours ago, Hi. said:

there is still the problem that some people could just show up to the boss and not help causing someone to solo deerclops with 8,000 hp.

They could also head to your base while you're fighting and start hammering and burning stuff.

[reddocc]

The only thing I would personally like to happen when fighting bosses in multiplayer is that every player in range of the boss gets a blueprint for their exclusive recipes, just like when you complete the archives puzzles everyone gets the recipes.

[MrsBoris]

3 hours ago, Ridley said:

My suggestion for boss scaling has always been focused on DPS output

Players will probably start memorizing the timing to stop hitting the boss, so it doesn't "enrage", if the meta strategy is to stop interacting with the boss to avoid its enrage mechanic it will be unhealthy. Now if its just a flat damage reduction after certain dps thresholds its no problem

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

I just killed Celestial Champion

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

but does Klei actually expect anyone who plays the game mostly Solo to ever realistically reach this point of the game by themselves

Yes cuz wolfgang is a free character and his double dps makes the fights much easier for solo players (and moving the statues), since the objective is killing him once for the affinities. Yes! Picking a better character for your objective is not cheesing, its a basic game mechanic! If the player refuses to play wolf, they are refusing to do the optimized strategy and they don't actually want to kill celestial champion they just want to complain and expect the game to bend to their will.

Wolfgang exists, so solo players can do twice the dps to bosses.

ANYWAYS congrats in killing celestial champion, enjoy the affinities

Edited Tuesday at 01:43 AM by MrsBoris

[Tranoze]

My way of hp scaling. - Boss resistant dmg

Boss will now remember all damage player dealt before boss Boss resistant dmg.
Player with highest damage so far wont receive Boss resistant dmg
Any attack wasn't made by player with highest damage so far will be reduced by amount of player fighting the boss, include summons.
 

That it. If any player help for small amount, they will only deal a fraction of their damage, thus boss hp scaling, and this type of scale will never over perform solo boss fight because player with highest damage doesnt get damage reduce by boss hp scaling.

If a helper deal more raw damage than the MVP, then they become mvp and now they deal max damage.

If 100 player fight boss, only the strongest player deal 100% damage, the rest 99 deal 1% damage, thus total time is about double the speed.

[Ridley]

1 hour ago, MrsBoris said:

Players will probably start memorizing the timing to stop hitting the boss, so it doesn't "enrage", if the meta strategy is to stop interacting with the boss to avoid its enrage mechanic it will be unhealthy. Now if its just a flat damage reduction after certain dps thresholds its no problem

Well the goal is to provide a challenge to groups who melt the boss, without punishing inefficient teams or those just looking to just get by. I don't know how we can make bosses more interesting to fight in larger and more efficient groups if we worry about if they will even like bosses having a resistance to being outright melted.

My problem with flat damage reduction is that there is no visual indication for it. You would also be dulling your weapons on it when there is already and extra cost in equipping everyone for a fight.

[Mike23Ua]

24 minutes ago, Ridley said:

Well the goal is to provide a challenge to groups who melt the boss, without punishing inefficient teams or those just looking to just get by. I don't know how we can make bosses more interesting to fight in larger and more efficient groups if we worry about if they will even like bosses having a resistance to being outright melted.

My problem with flat damage reduction is that there is no visual indication for it. You would also be dulling your weapons on it when there is already and extra cost in equipping everyone for a fight.

This isn’t just about DST, it also applies to the not yet released DSE. With DST the game has been around for like 11 years now so honestly unless people have JUST NOW started playing it… they accept that this is just how DST is and they either get exceptionally good at the game, or bring a group of friends so they don’t have to be so good. But this is mostly for extremely late game, or optional raid bosses you can straight up ignore… or never even know how to summon. DSE however is a brand new not yet released game, and while we have only seen one trailer for it… it at least appears that “bosses” will stalk the player and won’t just be optional encounters shoved in some obscure corner of the world somewhere.

It’s important that we discuss the (mostly optional) bosses of DST now…. So that the game won’t be unplayable when they aren’t so optional when DSE launches.

[Cassielu]

We should not assume that player character are the only things that cause damage to the boss.

The battles between mobs and even the battles between bosses are important components of DST. Not to mention the environmental damage such as fire.

Edited Tuesday at 03:52 AM by Cassielu

[Jussatoon]

Honestly, the more counter-arguments like the one above me are brought up, the more it becomes apparent that adding something like boss-scaling isn't as simple as people like to believe it is.

I think a more plausible approach is acknowledging all the reasons why boss-scaling is commonly requested, then account for those reasons in DSE so that boss-scaling won't be neccessary. For DST, more detailed settings for bosses should be implemented, and people shouldn't be so adverse to customizing their experience to their liking. 

Edited Tuesday at 03:54 AM by Jussatoon

[Captain_Rage]

1 hour ago, Ridley said:

Well the goal is to provide a challenge to groups who melt the boss, without punishing inefficient teams or those just looking to just get by. I don't know how we can make bosses more interesting to fight in larger and more efficient groups if we worry about if they will even like bosses having a resistance to being outright melted.

My problem with flat damage reduction is that there is no visual indication for it. You would also be dulling your weapons on it when there is already and extra cost in equipping everyone for a fight.

This is already in the game! Klei introduced this with planar damage and planar protection. xD It was not well met at all in general. That being said, Klei absolutely did the right thing even though most players seem extremely confused and misinformed about planar damage mechanics and the idea behind them.

This system favors hitting the boss at consistent rates rather that a flat out high damage per hit, and the challenge the bosses are usually built around is providing small time frames in which the player is safe to stand and deliver hits.

[Ridley]

1 hour ago, Captain_Rage said:

This is already in the game! Klei introduced this with planar damage and planar protection. xD It was not well met at all in general. That being said, Klei absolutely did the right thing even though most players seem extremely confused and misinformed about planar damage mechanics and the idea behind them.

This system favors hitting the boss at consistent rates rather that a flat out high damage per hit, and the challenge the bosses are usually built around is providing small time frames in which the player is safe to stand and deliver hits.

The flat damage reduction being discussed here was a different mechanic that would theoretically kick in when a DPS threshold was met. The boss would have not have this special armor in most cases, compared to the ever present planar protection that has scaling protection. 

I actually like planar protection compared to other games' boss armor. There is a sound effect of a dull weapon hit when using non-planar weapons on a planar enemy, ways to measure how much damage you deal to planar enemies, and planar protection is a consistent amount across all enemies.

It still doesn't address boss melting however. Planar protection doesn't scale to multiple players hitting a boss, since two players still have twice the damage output (ideally) of one player. The same concept applies to the windows of opportunity a boss may provide for receiving damage.

[Edible Coal]

the solution would be really simple here, some item that boost boss health and drops would be enough to do the trick

if the group of 5 enjoy a 5x hp afw that drops 5x the loot , then the option is always there

you could also do it solo ( wurt moment ) if you like

it incentives player without making it mandatory