WX78: Please raise the Floor, don't lower the Ceiling

[leo920101]

46 minutes ago, hhhhddh said:

实际上，我不认为阿尔法削弱的影响非常糟糕，160 点生命值和其他削弱虽然损失巨大，但影响不大（我是指基础属性部分，他们对阿尔法技能树的加成削弱得太厉害了），但问题是伽马不够令人满意，所以对阿尔法的削弱就显得毫无意义了。

我非常喜欢β电路，每个电路都非常有趣且实用。我的“主体”使用超光速和超轻电路，我的“战斗主体”使用电力电路，我的“控制主体”使用7倍射程增强电路，我的“毁灭主体”使用夜视和太空电路，我的“喷气孔主体”使用冷却电路。

但伽马值还不够令人满意。音速在多人游戏中很有用，但在单人游戏中作用不大。重新消化对WX来说无关紧要。旋转功能尚未完成，所以我现在不做评价。我不知道，或许[热备]特性应该允许玩家在连接到备用电源时激活它们？ 

阻挡环节既让我充满希望，也让我倍感失望。CD 赛道太长，阻挡时几乎什么都做不了，而且不适合配合电击……我真的觉得它很有潜力成为一条完美的团队支援赛道，或者一条高技巧高回报的赛道。

对于团队而言：它应该能够吸引周围敌人的仇恨，否则敌人会直接攻击你的团队，使阻挡变得毫无意义。

对于高手来说：这个技能应该能在1到2秒内完全格挡伤害。如果在格挡期间格挡成功并退出，则不需要冷却时间；如果持续格挡，则只能提供80%的护甲，并且需要冷却时间（2秒内未受到攻击也需要冷却时间）。这就像某些动作游戏中的完美格挡一样，过早退出会受到惩罚，过晚退出收益较少，如果操作完美，则可以获得一秒钟的无敌时间。

我真心希望 Klei 能让伽马电路更有用，而不是“哦，它们就像额外的免费电路，所以我们不希望它们太有用”，同时削弱其他电路和技能树特权。

 

Why isn’t the nerf to the health circuit that damaging? The first argument on this topic is simple:

 

the primary goal of numerical changes is to build character identity.

 

What identity does a stat layout of 440 health, 100 sanity, 100 hunger even create?

 

Who gets excited about a setup like that?

 

If the α circuits provide no roleplay enjoyment whatsoever, then all this “combining and tuning” becomes nothing but tedious busywork.

 

Players are forced to swap α circuits repeatedly just to compensate for the character’s poor base 100/100/100 stats.

 

What identity does that gameplay create? Who enjoys that kind of experience?

 

The current design is barely any different from simply removing all α circuits entirely and setting the character’s base stats to 200/200/200.

[Sacco]

6 minutes ago, Soul7k said:

with skills yes. without no

yes, that’s still a problem, skills shouldn’t make you super op.

[Jakepeng99]

5 hours ago, ArcAngela said:

Hello, this is a summary of what I will talk about because I will talk big; I would like to go over game and character design, introduce WX-78 to that scene and see how they perform in this topic, and draw conclusions based on what's been done/rebalanced around them.
 

Design, Ceilings and Floors

Starting with the title, what is "CEILING"? In this context I am speaking of characters in a general term; their design, strengths and weaknesses, and how they interact with the game they are in.
The character has a point where they are at their "weakest", which can be defined by their own downsides, unfortunate scenarios, bad luck or even at times the player's skill. In these cases, the player does not have "control" of the game, their actions are not to control the environment they surround themselves in, it's an attempt to even the odds or turn them in your favor.

This is design lingo, when playing you don't "feel out of control of your character", you "feel powerless in the middle of this chaos", or that the situation is dire and you have limited to time to think and limited actions to find footing so you don't die (lose all control or impact you can have as a player on the game).

This "weakest state" can be considered the entry point of a character in sandbox games like DST and sometimes this is their floor; the minimum you need to adapt or put up with to enjoy the character you're playing as. Some people cannot stand certain downsides (i.e: Wigfrid's meat-only diet). But we don't think about their "weakest state" while playing, we think about Wigfrid starving or finding herself without any good food options at a certain point (Lunar Islands, for example).
It is important to note here that Wigfrid's strengths are not nullified at her weakest state, she can be starving and still maintain her identity of combatant.

But I, together with many people, would argue that what really makes you pick a character over others is IDENTITY and their strengths. A character's identity is paramount to why you picked Wigfrid, you didn't pick her for the carnivore fantasy and the copium that comes with it, you picked her because you like fighting, you like combat and you like this party-buffer tough fighter identity she excels at delivering.

When Wigfrid is at her strongest it's when her identity and strengths shine the most; in combat. With her signature weapons, geared up teammates and an inventory full of meat and battlesongs ready to smack a giant. This is mostly why people play her, this is mostly why people find her fun! This is when a character reaches their ceiling; where the player's skill with this character is being rewarded and now the player may enjoy the fruits of their labor.

Here's me fighting Crab King this week when two Rockjaws decided to crash the party and completely throw me and my friend off.
I am Wigfrid, I have no control of this situation, my boat is about to die, I'm getting stun-locked by one of the Rockjaws, my buffs are wearing off, I have no ranged options. This is a great example of chaos where my character doesn't necessarily have downsides nor upsides against this situation but I have to rely on my character's strengths and my personal skill to find a way out of this mess, cause I'm still the viking lady, this is the identity I enjoy playing around and I signed up for this struggle.
 

Now comes WX-78

Where do they fit in all of this...? This is the question I'm sure developers can answer better than me, because to me at their core identity, WX-78 has been the "stat crazy" character. Ever since singleplayer with their 400, 200, 300 stats. Ever since their strange new power became an even stronger crazy lightning buff, and ever since their multiplayer rework where they could now scan the world to avoid every threat (but only one at a time).

Now I admit it, I am a WX-78 player, and I have not played nearly as much as I'd like about them. I love their hatred of all living things, I love playing Archipelago mod with them and boss rushing with randomizers, I love their amazing writing and sass. I never liked how weak the Circuits felt and how much gameplay identity they lacked.

I never felt like I was reaching any fantasy or any identity as a player, this comes after putting up with their weakest point, and strongest. Because at their weakest, WX-78 is losing health every second, hoping to get literally hit by lightning because nothing else from this character will work to save me and all my strengths have been disabled by wetness. It is an unforgiving death sentence that I wouldn't trade that for anything. Because a data-gathering microbe-hating transhumanist non-binary robot feels amazing to play when I "outsmart" a situation by adapting to it perfectly, even if my tools have always been below average.

WX-78 has always had an interesting floor, but very low ceiling that made them uninteresting and unrewarding to play for long.

This skill tree beta has fixed a lot of these issues almost instantly! With Alpha Beta and Gamma distinctions, amplified further with Chassis skills, I feel like I honestly can outsmart situations and plan ahead and be rewarded with overwhelming odds in my favor, and this feels GOOD, this even felt a bit nostalgic like back in singleplayer. I feel like I am being rewarded for being 3-steps ahead of the challenges that are after me, and I equally feel scared the moment I'm caught off-guard and watch my Charge slowly disable every strength I've relied on.

I can confidently say that WX-78 right now with their skill tree has a strong min-maxer multitasker generalist identity, where they don't exactly have specific strengths besides an insane level of adaptability purely focused on raw stats and wits. And downsides that can still effectively disable whatever specializations and plans you may have had.
 

Unfortunately, we lowered the ceiling...

I saw this coming from a mile away; Alpha circuits are now less than decent if not undesirable, you do not get them because you want to make a crazy build, you get them so you can lower how painful it is to have extremely low base stats. I understand the devs warned the community that they'll be tuning down their stats, I also understand that previous circuits were balanced to compete with each other for one single tray of circuits, not 3. But... I am disappointed nonetheless, because instead of nerfing the floor, we nerfed the ceiling, the fantasy of the stat crazy character is underwhelming once again, the identity is less rewarding, once again.

Not once did we consider the floor, not once did we adjust the creatures required or the recipe costs for circuits, not once did we go over what the real problem of Alpha Circuits were and why Health was overwhelmingly more popular than Hunger and Sanity.

Maybe I should've been vocal about my thoughts from the start, but maybe now this holds a little more weight; Please just allow WX-78 to keep their identity as the stat crazy survivor. 550 Health will always look "overpowered" in comparison to anyone else, but in a vacuum, stat increases are boring. You know what isn't boring? IDENTITY. It was never about +40 sanity or the Petals it required, it could be +50, it could be +20, it wouldn't have mattered at all if it did not create or reinforce an identity and thematic that feels fun and rewarding, which currently it doesn't.

We lowered from 125 base stats down to 100, EVERYONE LOVED IT, why? Because this is the floor, WX-78 players don't care about the floor and don't mind if the floor is raised nearly as much as the CEILING! Because we put up with these downsides for the sake of the ceiling, the potential and identity this character can deliver and how it stands out from the other survivors.

Likewise, every buff in this beta compared to current live WX can still be completely shutdown by Wetness, their weakness remains a punishing downside. You can have all 3 arrays of circuits filled to the brim, the moment wetness builds up that's all gone, and if you were relying on these circuits you're gone as well.

People loved 30% Armor with +500 Health because it held synergy with other circuits like Electrification and allowed a Tank identity. People cared about Gastro circuits because when paired with Gamma's Nutribrick, Beta's Refrigerant and their own upside of ignoring spoilage they created a very conservative Survivalist identity. Likewise, people cared about Beanbooster because it always held sanity perks as well, and equally didn't care about Processing circuits because... It never enabled an identity of any kind.

+550 Base Health drew attention and there were many flashy clips of WX-78 soloing by "standing still", and some people will defend that this is an understandable rebalance, but I'm sorry, what did it take for them to reach this potential? Take that away and what else can the character provide? Because let's rationalize for a moment; is this fun? Yes! Is this fair? No! Why? Because it's possible or because it feels cheap?

Here is a clip of me soloing Deerclops with only circuits and a Shadow Maul after the alpha nerfs, yes it is flashy and seems strong! But I'm sorry, if I'm not having fun with this character, this isn't even a real scenario. Because I don't even reach this point of the game where I have a fully leveled Shadow Maul and all these circuits. I mean hell, I didn't even use the blocking circuit because it's so underpowered and detached from other circuits that it doesn't help a Tank identity despite being designed for tanking.

If the reward for the player's work and skill doesn't feel fair, then make the reward fair, not less of a reward!

If we nerf the ceiling, the character has less potential, less areas they can shine in and adapt to, less skill expression from the players, and overall makes for a worse experience.

And all of that for the sake of... of what? What are we trading-off here if all WX-78 does is upgrade and specialize? Why did we do any of this? I'm having subpar Health upgrades because Super-Hardy couldn't have costed Red Gems? Or a Life-Giving Amulet? Why is this second-tier upgrade to the Hardy Circuit barely an upgrade that hardly rewards me even with the skills for alpha circuits, instead of just... Giving me more to do with the character, challenging me to reach higher resources for higher circuits and higher rewards to the point they enable new specializations and archetypes, like it already challenges me by requesting a Nurse Spider scan to begin with.

Speed Circuit remains the best-case example of this! It asks for me to scan a Rook, and to get a Gear. As the player, I control how I approach this challenge; I can get lucky and find one in the surface or venture into the Ruins for one. As for the gear there are many ways to find one and the game asks me to just find one, I have all the freedom and skill expression in the world to approach this however I'd like. The big cost means I must treat this Circuit with respect and really think twice before dying or removing it, and the reward has always been worth it! It enables so much freedom because 25% speed is fantastic, 3 of these have always enabled a Speedster/Scout identity despite having diminishing rewards.

Now imagine it was 10% speed and only costed Carrots... Wow, it barely makes a difference to have these. I'd need my entire Beta array just to enable this identity again, which limits my specializations with other Beta circuits, and all of that because I just... couldn't have 25%? What would it need to cost me for me to have 25%? Luckily, we already have this answer.

It's really funny to me how we have the solution right there, included within WX-78 already, we just need to apply this consistently across the CIRCUIT skills and respective circuit stats.
 

CONCLUSIONS

We are currently stuck at a "dial" problem, WX-78 stats feel too strong, Devs keep adjusting the dial and lowering them and raising them and hoping it threads the needle when the problem was never on the dial itself but rather what does it enable and what is it good for.

Please raise the floor, don't lower the ceiling. Here's my suggestion; Readjust the Alpha Circuits, bring back rewarding armor resistances or make them scale off of max health but require Blocking Circuit, make all circuits like Super-Hardy require more than just 3 Spider Glands, make these upgrades feel worth upgrading and give a real sense of progression, rework them so that you get not only a reward, but reinforce an identity!

Illumination Circuit feels always too strong? Make that pitiful recipe a bit more difficult! (which you did! But probably should be more if we're still lowering that light dial further and further)

In that very screenshot earlier I helped a 20h total playtime Wurt player who wanted to complete the Trident Quest for the merm king, They didn't care about how difficult the challenge was, they only cared about how rewarding was the completion and the journey of that quest!

WX-78 players will gladly go the extra mile if it means we keep the strong identity of becoming the ultimate life-form.

Make the tier-1 Alpha Circuits feel like semi-decent stat raises at the beginning of the game, and their respective tier-2 upgrades feel like a sizeable upside that follows the player's progression and can open doors to synergize with other circuits, archetypes and specializations.

I liked Tank WX-78, I think a stat crazy character should be allowed to Tank if I specialized on this one goal. Their whole identity relies on adaptability, data-gathering and planning. And I enjoy having this unique min-max specialization that no other survivor has! I wish I had more than just Tanking to vouch for, but we unfortunately did not explore sanity or hunger nearly as much as we did the "Dial" of health and armor.

+500 Health is a lot to heal if you don't have the right ingredients, resources and tools to upkeep, and I still have 100 Sanity and Hunger, I will still go insane very fast during tougher fights, I will still need to eat and I will waste a ton of Hunger from foods just to heal it back up.
I enjoy being rewarded for adapting to this identity and even further enjoy multitasking with another Chassis to upkeep said Tank, it feels like I'm the whole Kerbal Space Program, and I love it, and I love what you did with this skill tree, but the stat monster character currently doesn't feel like a monster because of a dial. I don't feel like my power is scaling when I go through the usual scanning quests just for 100 bonus health. I don't feel like getting +100 Sanity, or +150 is building up to anything at all.

The issue is not on the ceiling being too high. It's on how it enables adaptability and how much does the player need to work to reach these strengths. Please Klei, bring back the old stats and reconsider why Processing and Gastro weren't as popular, and what can you adjust to enable these circuits to feel fun and worth the player's time.

This suggestion is not exclusive to Alpha circuits because I see how limiting Gammas ended up becoming rather than reinforcing synergies and opening up doors to clever applications of the player's skill and knowledge. Still there is potential here, as displayed by me using Shadow Maul to spin to win, even if completely unrealistic and unreliable. I wish I could spin to win with any sharp weapon though.

Im confused what the point is. Your main point is about the health circuit nerf which was previously really overpowered. This is a really long post so I might have forgotten about stuff but I think what I will say just applies.

You’re saying they lowered the ceiling somehow. Health circuits can be gotten day 1, with the super health ones a bit later. 
 

WX has lots of way to scale, but I believe people are under a weird impression that Characters only have their upsides they can use, and forget they can scale in different ways.

Maxwell barely scales in the game. His shadow puppets deal more damage with better shadow equipment but that is it. His upsides are just generally useful through the whole game. He scaled as you generally get better food farms, better weapons, and ect just like every character.

Wortox is another example. He doesn’t scale at all, his only scaling is his soul jar and affinity skill.

Oh… Wolfgang is another one who only scales with dumbbells. But of course he scales with weapons and equipment like any character.

As for WX, he has way more scaling than Maxwell. Unlocking every circuit takes effort, quite a few are boss locked, and it’s a lot of scavenging the map for them, which WX is good at. As you progress through the game, you make multiple circuit layouts using Chasis chambers so you can be much more versatile, and gain the ability to scale by having teleport points too. some of the best characters In the game have zero scaling, because people forget how versatile each circuit and skill is through the whole game.

Edited April 6 by Jakepeng99

[Soul7k]

33 minutes ago, Sacco said:

yes, that’s still a problem, skills shouldn’t make you super op.

having an advantage over not having one does not mean overpowered. you are diluting the meaning of the word/phrase

 

38 minutes ago, leo920101 said:

the primary goal of numerical changes is to build character identity.

What identity does a stat layout of 440 health, 100 sanity, 100 hunger even create?

Who gets excited about a setup like that?

tank. people who like tanking

Edited April 6 by Soul7k

[hhhhddh]

39 minutes ago, leo920101 said:

 

Why isn’t the nerf to the health circuit that damaging? The first argument on this topic is simple:

 

the primary goal of numerical changes is to build character identity.

 

What identity does a stat layout of 440 health, 100 sanity, 100 hunger even create?

 

Who gets excited about a setup like that?

 

If the α circuits provide no roleplay enjoyment whatsoever, then all this “combining and tuning” becomes nothing but tedious busywork.

 

Players are forced to swap α circuits repeatedly just to compensate for the character’s poor base 100/100/100 stats.

 

What identity does that gameplay create? Who enjoys that kind of experience?

 

The current design is barely any different from simply removing all α circuits entirely and setting the character’s base stats to 200/200/200.

Don't exaggerate, stats are just...stats. Klei nerfed their basic stat just because nobody would use alpha circuits in main game version, and you can use both alpha and beta circuit in beta game version, so the stat out stands. The reason it isn't that damaging is because you lose the same hp in battle no matter you have 440 or 600 hp. Super-Gastrogain Circuits matters a little, but it's actually just make you hunger 7.5 more per day compared to before.

AND it's totally different. If you ask me what causes the difference between 200/200/200 and circuits, the backup chassis do. Let me list my chassis:

On the ground:

1. Main body:

- Alpha: 2 Super-Gastrogain Circuit, 1 Beanbooster Circuit. (300 hunger/200 sanity/100 health, I'll just use 300/200/100 below.)

- Beta: 1 Light Circuit, 2 Speed Circuit and 2 Light Circuit(from upper to lower), the upper Light Circuit can be replaced in late game to like Space Circuit.

- Gamma: I'm not so sure because they are not finish yet, so I just skip them below.

The idea of this body is to hunger slower, auto regen, and deal with some small fights. The high speed enhances the mobility of short trips and light obsoletes lantern. It can also deal boss fights that you can easily avoid injury with high speed, like Deerclops, Ancient Guardian, etc.

2. Battle body:

 

- Alpha: 3 Super-hardy Circuit, 1 hardy Circuit. (100/100/440)

- Beta: 1 Light Circuit, 3 Electric Circuit.

The idea of this body is to fight the tough fights, which it's hard to avoid injury, especially Bee Queen. I usually use it to fight Bee Queen with marble suit and thulecite crown, eat 3~4 gears allows you fight her without any skill. 600 hp just reduced the frequency you eat gears compare with 440 hp.

3. Home body:

- Alpha: No circuit at all. (100/100/100) Or 2 Beanbooster Circuits(100/300/100)

- Beta: 1 Light Circuit, 3 Speed Circuit.

The idea of this body is to deal with chores, AND gain extra stat regen from the mechanism. It can provides 3x hunger regen and 4.4x health regen maximum. Let me explain to prevent anyone from not knowing the mechanism:

Spoiler

Your stats will be proportional transfer to chassis. If you have 10 hp left and with 400 max hp body, you can transfer to a body with 100 max hp. Current hp will become 2.5(10/400 = 2.5/100), and eat a blue cap it become 22.5. Transfer back to 400 max hp body, your current hp will be 90(90/400 = 22.5/100)

In the cave:

I'm kinda tired of listing them maybe I'll start a topic later to share my other backup circuit plans.

Did you notice none of them is 200/200/200? If you are not creative enough to make circuit plans, maybe you could refer to mine, rather than say "It's no different from removing all alpha circuits and make WX 200/200/200".

Edited April 6 by hhhhddh
tired

[Cheggf]

3 hours ago, leo920101 said:

yeah, that's why I haven't play WX since the rework

if you can't see how boring they're now may that's your problem

You haven't played WX for 3 years and you're pretending like the skill tree which addresses most of the issues with the character is the cause of the problems you've been having for 3 years?

[Mysterious box]

3 hours ago, leo920101 said:

So you didn’t even read the latest hotfix notes, yet you’re still arguing about character strength here? What’s your problem? It seems you don’t care about the characters at all—you just want to argue.

I did read the patch notes and retested the circuit and what I got was around a remaining 60 hunger left after 11 days. My point being made was people were underestimating how useful the hunger circuit can be which I then went into why. So I have to ask what is your problem here? You didn't even engage with what I was talking about and just decided to argue around me and make a baseless claim.

[Eden_come_back1]

What's going on with the forum in this thread? How fix this?

[Kvetevk]

11 minutes ago, Eden_come_back1 said:

What's going on with the forum in this thread? How fix this?

What do you mean?

[Random Guy000]

7 hours ago, Soul7k said:

that is not super impressive since you still have to pound down almost 3 meaty stew to get back to full hunger

Just make a chassis with no circuits, eat 4 cooked meat and enjoy your 3 meaty stews worth of value when you swap back

Edited April 6 by Random Guy000

[Eden_come_back1]

2 hours ago, Kvetevk said:

What do you mean?

There's Chinese in the quote. But when you click on the message, it's already English. 

[Kvetevk]

15 minutes ago, Eden_come_back1 said:

There's Chinese in the quote. But when you click on the message, it's already English. 

That means, that the user is chinese and he/she sees it in their own language.

It's always been like that.

[Eden_come_back1]

It feels like they started changing WX-78 way too early. The new circuits didn’t have the effect we were hoping for (though the ideas are interesting). We still don’t have any affinity.

 

I like the direction WX-78 is heading in, but I don’t like that he’s getting nerfed without a clear reason. What is affinity supposed to add that would actually make these nerfs necessary?

 

The first nerf was good, but the next two were unnecessary (feels like people complained about it too much and didn’t leave Klei much of a choice).

16 minutes ago, Kvetevk said:

That means, that the user is chinese and he/she sees it in their own language.

It's always been like that.

Ок. Now I know too

Edited April 6 by Eden_come_back1

[ArcAngela]

7 hours ago, Sacco said:

you shouldn’t have the ability to literally negate one stat. Let’s be honest, having 100 health and sanity isn’t that big of a deal…

you lose less hunger over time. so esting one meaty stew gives you more than 2 days of effective hunger.

I ask again as I did in the post; Why not? Why can't I negate one stat if I really want to?

Can any other survivor do this? No? Then is the problem WX having something unique that other survivors don't have if you were to specialize in this one stat, or is the problem that you really wanna somehow ignore that you can achieve the same ignorance of Hunger with any survivor with Kelp Fronds, Banana Bushes, even Lureplant boats.

All of these take time to set up, and that's the point.

If I have to work for it first, then let me have it. There has never been any issue with letting me have it so long as I've earned it.

Some people just really wanna say "WX78 shouldn't have this unique ability" as if they have ANY OTHER ABILITIES BESIDES UPGRADING.

7 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Im confused what the point is. Your main point is about the health circuit nerf which was previously really overpowered. This is a really long post so I might have forgotten about stuff but I think what I will say just applies.

You’re saying they lowered the ceiling somehow. Health circuits can be gotten day 1, with the super health ones a bit later. 
 

WX has lots of way to scale, but I believe people are under a weird impression that Characters only have their upsides they can use, and forget they can scale in different ways.

Maxwell barely scales in the game. His shadow puppets deal more damage with better shadow equipment but that is it. His upsides are just generally useful through the whole game. He scaled as you generally get better food farms, better weapons, and ect just like every character.

Wortox is another example. He doesn’t scale at all, his only scaling is his soul jar and affinity skill.

Oh… Wolfgang is another one who only scales with dumbbells. But of course he scales with weapons and equipment like any character.

As for WX, he has way more scaling than Maxwell. Unlocking every circuit takes effort, quite a few are boss locked, and it’s a lot of scavenging the map for them, which WX is good at. As you progress through the game, you make multiple circuit layouts using Chasis chambers so you can be much more versatile, and gain the ability to scale by having teleport points too. some of the best characters In the game have zero scaling, because people forget how versatile each circuit and skill is through the whole game.

I don't care about other characters "scaling" because they are not about scaling, WX-78 is about scaling.

I don't care about other characters because this isn't about other characters, this is about WX-78. I swear, if someone showed up and said to me "we are nerfing your Build-Your-Own-Character survivor and making it feel less rewarding and expressive because Maxwell, which has a completely different focus and identity, can't do all that." I would learn new insults on my vocabulary.

WX-78's gimmick is scaling, just like Wormwood's gimmick is blooming and farming, just like any other survivor has their own gimmick. The fact we are pointlessly arguing that this character shouldn't be strong because their unique scaling enables unique abilities that no other survivor has is just laughably missing the point of the character.

I am upgrading the upgrade character to bypass my peers, not to match them.

I'm not just advocating against the Super-Hardy nerfs, I'm using it as an example of the dial issue, because by now it has impacted several circuits and how they function (electrification, illumination, super-gastrogain, super-processing, super-hardy, beanbooster) instead of looking over progression and making these more interesting rather than less rewarding.

We are lowering the scaling potential of WX-78 purely because it is unique from other survivors, which should've been a good thing! I don't know why people argue that it's not. Nobody has ever argued that Wigfrid shouldn't buff her entire party just because "no other survivor can do that".

They did argue however, that she shouldn't revive her party, and thus we got the most useless battlesong in existence that no Wigfrid player uses.

It's so selective, so pointless.

Edited April 6 by ArcAngela
beanbooster also nerfed and also worth mentioning "what if the boss drop was useless?" is really laughing stock.

[doritosdamafia]

7 hours ago, Sacco said:

you shouldn’t have the ability to literally negate one stat. Let’s be honest, having 100 health and sanity isn’t that big of a deal…

wormwood and beefalos do that already, so why complain about wx?

[Radicaljoe]

8 hours ago, ZeRoboButler said:

this is a bizarre amount of hoops to go through.

yeah, it wasn't an actual suggestion, I just keep seeing that thread about "WX doesn't need to eat if they don't want to" and I'm making fun of it.

[Kvetevk]

26 minutes ago, Radicaljoe said:

yeah, it wasn't an actual suggestion, I just keep seeing that thread about "WX doesn't need to eat if they don't want to" and I'm making fun of it.

I will process YOU into food.

[hhhhddh]

1 minute ago, Kvetevk said:

I will process YOU into food.

I don't want to eat bricks anymore they taste like wall plaster(I'm just joking)

[Kvetevk]

5 minutes ago, hhhhddh said:

I don't want to eat bricks anymore they taste like wall plaster(I'm just joking)

Either eat or be eaten (or processed)

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, ArcAngela said:

WX-78's gimmick is scaling, just like Wormwood's gimmick is blooming and farming, just like any other survivor has their own gimmick. The fact we are pointlessly arguing that this character shouldn't be strong because their unique scaling enables unique abilities that no other survivor has is just laughably missing the point of the character.

It’s built your own character like you said.

He isn’t meant to scale to bypass every character. Him getting new circuits is the exact same as any character getting new tools, or being able to use more of their perks.

Im not sure why you think that after having your circuits you should be better than every other character? All the recent characters seem aimed to be designed to have scaling be a downside not an upside, . When Wanda starts off, she is pretty bad. She needs to work to get her useful items to utilise her perks well, and she is one of the best characters in the games, though she doesn’t surpass her pears or anything. This is just her getting to a comfortable level, the alarming clock is op though she still needs a little more. Her scaling though is very short term, so using scaling to justify her power isnt so fair when it’s easy to get out that weak state. WX can get enough circuits pretty easily. Just like Wanda, it often involves a ruins trip though this isn’t nessisary and can be avoided.

The only character who can scale like this is Wurt, and for her, it’s a badly designed aspect for her. She just ends up making the game feel boring with all her power. She has always had that issue. I heard Winona is similar but I haven’t played her lately game enough.

 

Edited April 6 by Jakepeng99

[hhhhddh]

But not joking things: I think they nerfed alpha perk too much. The only thing special from alpha perk: Beanbooster shield is like 20% extra health now, but no other effects in battle, cause it needs 14 for 1 shield hp! I thought it was a reward to people who don't get hit much in battle, cause it provides Invincible if its shield is higher than 15. It allowed me to fight without armour, cause I usually don't get hit more than once in 1 minute(it was 1 shield/4 second). And now it needs 14*15 seconds to reach 15, it's 3.5 minutes, about half a day in game, most boss fight will end shorter than that. So the 15 shield Invincible threshold means nothing but a free hit in a battle now.

And other alpha perk effects are just make the former stat back, or not so attractive. I even don't pick them now. It just like 5 planar defence perk of Wigfrid(still better than that please rework on Wig's skilltree), if I don't have other perks I want, I'll pick that.

I think a really good skill tree should be: "oh I want all of them but I have to choose", like Woodie's. Not "hmm which ones are bad I'll not pick them", like, again, Wigfrid's. WX's skilltree is not that bad now but alpha perk nerf have make it kinda going that way.

[ArcAngela]

2 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

It’s built your own character like you said.

He isn’t meant to scale to bypass every character. Him getting new circuits is the exact same as any character getting new tools, or being able to use more of their perks.

Im not sure why you think that after having your circuits you should be better than every other character? All the recent characters seem aimed to be designed to have scaling be a downside not an upside, . When Wanda starts off, she is pretty bad. She needs to work to get her useful items to utilise her perks well, and she is one of the best characters in the games, though she doesn’t surpass her pears or anything. This is just her getting to a comfortable level, the alarming clock is op though she still needs a little more. Her scaling though is very short term, so using scaling to justify her power isnt so fair when it’s easy to get out that weak state. WX can get enough circuits pretty easily. Just like Wanda, it often involves a ruins trip though this isn’t nessisary and can be avoided.

The only character who can scale like this is Wurt, and for her, it’s a badly designed aspect for her. She just ends up making the game feel boring with all her power. She has always had that issue. I heard Winona is similar but I haven’t played her lately game enough.

 

"WX can get enough circuits pretty easily". You think so? Then make them harder to get!

Thanks for literally reinforcing my point that the real issue is in what it takes to access these strong points and not how strong they are.

Also no, Wanda surpasses their peers really easily. Nobody is arguing that Willow has higher damage output than Wanda. Nobody is arguing about how Walter surpasses everyone in ranged combat with his own personal tools, nobody is arguing about how Wortox surpasses everyone in mobility and healing, nobody is arguing about how Wurt surpasses everyone in melting down bosses.

WX-78 having 550 health 30% armor isn't suddenly bypassing any of the previously mentioned characters, in fact they are the only one capable of reaching raw high numbers like that, and this is fine because this is the whole point. The whole point is to have substantial upgrades that allow you to make a Jack of all trades or a master of one. So no, having bigger stats does not mean "better than everyone else".

Yet again I remind you I am not talking about raw stat increases, I am talking about armor, about less hunger drains, sanity resistances, all these other perks that enabled further customization and opened up different identities and specializations for the character.

If I build a tank with the customization character I should excel at it. If I build a fridge I should excel at it. If the issue is "justifying" those strengths then just make them justifiable rather than nerfing what makes them special from other survivors.

You advocate for nothing. If "this character should match other characters" then why would anyone pick this character over other characters? The whole point is to differ and be unique from other characters, not equalize and match.

[Evelo]

9 hours ago, doritosdamafia said:

wormwood and beefalos do that already, so why complain about wx?

I complain about Beefalos negating stuff all the time

[doritosdamafia]

18 minutes ago, Evelo said:

I complain about Beefalos negating stuff all the time

yea, but wx with full gastro before the nerf was amost like a inverse wormwood and that was very funny to me