This Just In: Clockwork's Demolish Fuelweaver and Other Raid Bosses

[GrapeVruit]

     

 

Edited February 14 by GrapeVruit

[Maxil20]

Okay I'm sorry if I'm gonna be a bit of a downer, but this needs to get adjusted significantly. Watching my friend walk up with ~20 bishops and just steamroll bosses is on par with post rework Wurt levels of power, and this is applicable to every single character. 

They need to tweak the costs of allying/summoning clockworks. A friend suggested the sculptures take 2 gears each to make, and you get those back when hammering except when you summon the clockwroks on a full moon. That alone would at least tweak them from being almost freer than Free than they currently are right now.

[Milordo]

Yup.

 

6 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

Okay I'm sorry if I'm gonna be a bit of a downer, but this needs to get adjusted significantly. Watching my friend walk up with ~20 bishops and just steamroll bosses is on par with post rework Wurt levels of power, and this is applicable to every single character. 

They need to tweak the costs of allying/summoning clockworks. A friend suggested the sculptures take 2 gears each to make, and you get those back when hammering except when you summon the clockwroks on a full moon. That alone would at least tweak them from being almost freer than Free than they currently are right now.

Not possible. In this case you can't just lower some numbers and expect it to be better. This needs to be resolved in the core of the mechanic. 

I still stand and say for option A). Remove it. Just remove it. So then if you want your clocks army, go down to the dangerous level, as it should, pay up more gears and have a few of them. 

EDIT: Klei will probably tweak bishops attack electric stun, but it will not change nothing btw eh. Rooks still exist for example. 

Edited February 13 by Milordo

[Maxil20]

2 minutes ago, Milordo said:

So then if you want your clocks army, go down to the dangerous level, as it should, pay up more gears and have a few of them. 

I am not joking when I say even if they removed allying clockworks and you had to go to the ruins to get them through this method, they would still be overpowered.

It only takes a few bishops to create a stun army and massively boost your DPS. Once you get a few bishops, you can pretty comfortably speed through the bosses that you use to reset the ruins and just keep growing your clockwork army indefinitely.

Keep in mind, repairing the clockwork piles still gives you loot, and clearing the ruins with followers from the piles is trivial to earn the rest!

Like, look at this, dude! These are bosses that are melted in seconds! Forever! Without any maintenance or prep work whatsoever past the initial cost!

 

 

 

[DegenerateFurry]

Well, we know what it'll take to get Klei to change it: someone needs to kill Fuelweaver using only clockwork bishops. 

[GrapeVruit]

6 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Well, we know what it'll take to get Klei to change it: someone needs to kill Fuelweaver using only clockwork bishops. 

Y’know what? I’ll try it rn.

[Well-met]

A quick fix would be to make clockworks affected by epicscares

[Malfario]

Its a complex situation, i am talking as someone who generally speaking dislikes playing with armies in dst, looking at the whole picture bishop armies are not that cheap early game , each clockwork costing first having found and summoned the shadow pieces, then wait for a full moon, and then spent 1 marble/1 cut stone, 2 rocks and a gear in each clockwork summoned. I ve had pretty comunly very bad ruins rush where i ve had come to the surface with less than 10 gears, on that sense eventho you can really spam clockworks from mid game onwards, i think its important to remind ourselves this strat is not that accesible.

Even after having setted up the bishop army, if you relay on them for farming you will need to keep them around you constantly since killing them and resummoning them in between fights its way to expensive, and i can see them causing mayhem have you prefered keeping them around after you are done with your boss. So in the context of a boss rush, they arent really worth spending time on them until spring or late winter, and in long term/megabase worlds they aren,t that feaseble for continuous boss farming.

Yes they probably need to get a little tweak but i think a lot of us are over reacting a bit and i would hate to watch this new, fresh and super fun mechanic being nerfed to the ground to the point its not worth investing time on it. 

Personally i think the way to go is to make the process of taming them a little bit more involved, not more expensive neceseraly but simply something you have to get a bit out of your way to achieve, maybe we need to find/craft a clockwork taming item, maybe we have to stun clockworks first before taming them etc etc. 

Personally i like the idea of having a dedicated item to clockwork taming, mostly because that can easily slide into more infraestrcuture to control them, maybe a port where you can tell them to rest when you dont want them around anymore, upgrades etc etc.

Just now, Well-met said:

A quick fix would be to make clockworks affected by epicscares

Problem is that that its usually what makes armies not worth using against many bosses.

[Well-met]

5 minutes ago, Malfario said:

Problem is that that its usually what makes armies not worth using against many bosses.

good, since bosses cannot survive armies.

[Malfario]

1 minute ago, Well-met said:

good, since bosses cannot survive armies.

I think its a big unfair, thats a gross oversimplifaction, armies should be valiable options, i hate when balance comes from prohibiting tactis and not throwing difernt challenges depedning on the used strat

[Milordo]

10 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

Like, look at this, dude! These are bosses that are melted in seconds! Forever! Without any maintenance or prep work whatsoever past the initial cost!

I know. I've said it that I tested them a lot thoroughly.

23 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

I am not joking when I say even if they removed allying clockworks and you had to go to the ruins to get them through this method, they would still be overpowered.

It only takes a few bishops to create a stun army and massively boost your DPS. Once you get a few bishops, you can pretty comfortably speed through the bosses that you use to reset the ruins and just keep growing your clockwork army indefinitely.

Keep in mind, repairing the clockwork piles still gives you loot, and clearing the ruins with followers from the piles is trivial to earn the rest!

 

But what you're describing, is a problem larger than itself. We're going to the forbidden zone of "followers" *shrugs*. What we should do then? Limit how many clockworks you have? Nerf their stats? Congratulations! Now you have ruined Ruins. Then change how bosses interact with them? It's finally time for the goddamm auto-balance boss fights mechanic, that has been requested to death since 2015 dst inception? Should they receive this against followers? Then what about Webber and Wurt? Because they have LITERALLY the same things, maybe even worse. Like what is the difference between that and this? Really. Time? What about? It's not like Wurt take that much time and many people don't care about time. Webber can be extremely faster. What it is truly the difference? Because you're forced to play two characters? Wilson and company can do the same with spiders, pigmen and bunnymen. The problem has not changed.   

Like it's a lot. 

The clockworks reworks can't be reverted because they work fantastic, outside of this gigantic unbalanced mess. 

So OR Klei will immediately tackle and giga rework the followers system, which is obviously a near impossible future. OR You could possibly advocating for completely remove all-together, the possibility of having clockworks army? Which..... I don't know how to feel....for sure neutral. I just want to fight them heroically in the Ruins.

 

That's why I was talking about first removing the "allying clockworks" thing, because it's even worse since you cancel them completely as enemies of the level, and then tackle this lower layer that you're saying. The objective point still stands. Changing befriending them from 1 gear to two gears as you said, will change literally nothing. 

 

EDIT: While writing this post I had come up with an idea. What do you think about clockworks receiving heavy nerfs, not only in numbers but even in mechanics (like the electricity one), WHEN fighting boss fights? But when they fight everything else they're normal? I still don't like it, but you tell me.

 

5 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Well, we know what it'll take to get Klei to change it: someone needs to kill Fuelweaver using only clockwork bishops. 

[-Nick-]

Clockwork taming is such a weird addition that I wish that they just revert it if it stays like it is currently. It doesn't make sense with how it is implemented.

Taming ruins clockworks made since given you are building/repairing a pile of broken clockworks, making them loyal to you.

Only way I could see clockwork taming is either hacking them with wagpunk stuff from the junkyard or getting a surface version of clockwork piles.

Edited February 14 by -Nick-

[GrapeVruit]

38 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Well, we know what it'll take to get Klei to change it: someone needs to kill Fuelweaver using only clockwork bishops. 

Alright, here are my findings:

 

 

[Milordo]

29 minutes ago, Malfario said:

Personally i like the idea of having a dedicated item to clockwork taming, mostly because that can easily slide into more infraestrcuture to control them, maybe a port where you can tell them to rest when you dont want them around anymore, upgrades etc etc.

Exactly. 

Option D).

22 minutes ago, Malfario said:

I think its a big unfair, thats a gross oversimplifaction, armies should be valiable options, i hate when balance comes from prohibiting tactis and not throwing difernt challenges depedning on the used strat

Remember people. Balance don't remove fun, or gameplay, or whatever else other people uniformed you. Balance is like a knife. You can hurt people with a knife, but you can also make a splendid cake. It depends on the user on how to balance the game. Just like the knife.

I'm not saying this directly to you Malfario. Just saying it in general for everybody as a reminder.

[Maxil20]

11 minutes ago, Milordo said:

1 gear to two gears as you said, will change literally nothing. 

 

It would actually change quite a bit for the standard gameplay. For one, you can't farm the gears needed to tame clockworks by just repeatedly summoning clockworks to kill them anymore (bonus points if it's the bishop, which drops a purple gem as well). Since you get the sculpture mat back, you can quite literally convert 2 rocks into 2 gears by doing this at the moment. Since you also technically need the gear to tame them, it would go up to 3 and you would still lose 1 gear per killed follower as well.

It would obviously not be your ideal vision, but it would turn them from literally farm rocks and win into something that at least takes a bit more effort. I do imagine they'll probably rework the system in general, though.

[Maxil20]

54 minutes ago, Milordo said:

EDIT: While writing this post I had come up with an idea. What do you think about clockworks receiving heavy nerfs, not only in numbers but even in mechanics (like the electricity one), WHEN fighting boss fights? But when they fight everything else they're normal? I still don't like it, but you tell me.

Personally, I would rework the follower clockworks to be the following:

-Keep the knight the same as your middiling damage dealer/kiter, along with being the one to retain the aggro on an enemy.

-sharply lower the bishops attack, but retain the stun/AoE element for crowd control. This would make it not ideal for damage, but it would be safe and would take the stress off of the other two clockworks by greatly mitigating the damage they take.

-Boost the damage potential of the rook (apparently their damage to mobs got dropped from 200 to 90 against mobs? Not sure why that occurred TBH), as your main damage dealers for boss fights. They would perform the powerful hits, and the knights would keep the enemy still enough for it to charge at. 

My idea being you're encouraged to have all 3 clockworks for a variety of encounters. It's currently way too front loaded on the bishop right now. Why should I bother taming knights/rooks when the bishop basically has the best of all 3, being good damage, AoE, and "safe" (out of the range of enemy attacks) follower?

I think it would make for a fun concept of a follower army, where each unit has a different role, compared to spamming the same pigs/bunnies/merms to perform combat. Plus, I think it would be cute to have the whole chess gang working together!

Ill try to respond to other character followers when I can as I think they have some defining traits in terms of follower classes (at work so my responses are quick, apologies : ( )

 

Edited February 14 by Maxil20

[BalkanCockroach]

Good 

[GetNerfedOn]

this reminds me of rock lobster spam in Reign of Giants. ah, those glory days...

[Milordo]

13 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

It would actually change quite a bit for the standard gameplay. For one, you can't farm the gears needed to tame clockworks by just repeatedly summoning clockworks to kill them anymore (bonus points if it's the bishop, which drops a purple gem as well). Since you get the sculpture mat back, you can quite literally convert 2 rocks into 2 gears by doing this at the moment. Since you also technically need the gear to tame them, it would go up to 3 and you would still lose 1 gear per killed follower as well.

It would obviously not be your ideal vision, but it would turn them from literally farm rocks and win into something that at least takes a bit more effort. I do imagine they'll probably rework the system in general, though.

Can you explain to me this further? I quite don't understand. Like okay, you made the sculptures just like broken clockworks....but the Ruins are still ruined through the befriend thing and we didn't touch the clockworks armies since you brought up into the discussion, the followers system. You can do what you're scared of, literally early-game and a lot bigger with already broken clockworks. Like why are we first focusing into something very "end-game" (heavy quotation marks) when there are also the others two a lot time before and the damage is already done? Maybe we're talking about two different things.

I never was the guy to push for my ideals visions into things. Here too. I'm just passionate and with reason and logic, I want these two things (the new befriend mechanic and all the follower clockworks thing) to be balanced. That's all. (Oh, and knight and electricity status too! On my post). That's why I said "remove". Removing stuff sometimes is more beneficial, better and healthier. Klei did it a few times in history, when so many would never do. That's why I have a lot of respect towards them.

I suspect too, you know? That after these days, Klei will probably re-change everything. 

25 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

Personally, I would rework the follower clockworks to be the following:

-Keep the knight the same as your middiling damage dealer/kiter, along with being the one to retain the aggro on an enemy.

-sharply lower the bishops attack, but retain the stun/AoE element for crowd control. This would make it not ideal for damage, but it would be safe and would take the stress off of the other two clockworks by greatly mitigating the damage they take.

-Boost the damage potential of the rook (apparently their damage to mobs got dropped from 200 to 90 against mobs? Not sure why that occurred TBH), as your main damage dealers for boss fights. They would perform the powerful hits, and the knights would keep the enemy still enough for it to charge at. 

My idea being you're encouraged to have all 3 clockworks for a variety of encounters. It's currently way too front loaded on the bishop right now. Why should I bother taming knights/rooks when the bishop basically has the best of all 3, being good damage, AoE, and "safe" (out of the range of enemy attacks) follower?

I think it would make for a fun concept of a follower army, where each unit has a different role, compared to spamming the same pigs/bunnies/merms to perform combat. Plus, I think it would be cute to have the whole chess gang working together!

Ill try to respond to other character followers when I can as I think they have some defining traits in terms of follower classes (at work so my responses are quick, apologies : ( )

 

Is all of these changes based on when they're your followers and fight ONLY other mobs and not the player, correct? I'm not mistaken? 

Don't worry about work. Same thing for me.

28 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

Plus, I think it would be cute to have the whole chess gang working together!

Completely agree, yeeeeee.

[Evelo]

"Don't Starve Together is still difficult"
Sure, if you don't abuse mechanics like these.
Edit: They nerfed it, somewhat.

Edited February 14 by Evelo

[Gashzer]

In practice you arent going to have a million gears that quickly.

I feel like this is Klei's way of introducing a grind to win mechanic for those who cant kill bosses solo. Having to stun, repair with gear and only can spawn them at full moon is just grindy enough to make this balanced.

Especially for bosses like bee queen/AFW clockworks are nice followers to have.

[Maxil20]

2 hours ago, Milordo said:

Is all of these changes based on when they're your followers and fight ONLY other mobs and not the player, correct? I'm not mistaken? 

Yes! I think "wild" clockworks their interactions with players/other mobs is perfectly fine at the moment. No reason to change these specifically. 

2 hours ago, Milordo said:

Can you explain to me this further? I quite don't understand. Like okay, you made the sculptures just like broken clockworks....but the Ruins are still ruined through the befriend thing and we didn't touch the clockworks armies since you brought up into the discussion, the followers system. You can do what you're scared of, literally early-game and a lot bigger with already broken clockworks. Like why are we first focusing into something very "end-game" (heavy quotation marks) when there are also the others two a lot time before and the damage is already done? Maybe we're talking about two different things.

I never was the guy to push for my ideals visions into things. Here too. I'm just passionate and with reason and logic, I want these two things (the new befriend mechanic and all the follower clockworks thing) to be balanced. That's all. (Oh, and knight and electricity status too! On my post). That's why I said "remove". Removing stuff sometimes is more beneficial, better and healthier. Klei did it a few times in history, when so many would never do. That's why I have a lot of respect towards them.

I suspect too, you know? That after these days, Klei will probably re-change everything. 

I think we both might be coming at this from different directions and getting confused, so let me try to take this from square one and explain it better (or do it Worse!).

From my experience, the clockworks were in an oddball spot pre rework as you know, with most of that stemming primarily with their especially buggy follower AI. You basically traded 3 gears for a mob that could potentially help/hinder the ruins expedition, and hoped you didn't need to log out/swap shards/do literally anything to permanently break their follower connection to the player. That, and how rooks would very easily cause friendly fire and basically were a massive detriment to a clockwork army. Nonetheless, I did think they had some pretty niche but funny applications, especially the bishop being a ranged attacker (given how few enemies in this game have ranged attacks, having a follower that does is a major boon). The problem was because the bishop was the best to use of the clunky AI and Rooks were the Mob ever, there was basically no reason to get anything but the bishops and maybe the knights as a side effect of repairing the clockworks.

Post rework was extremely good at ironing out a lot of the kinks in the follower issues and improving clockwork AI in general. I do find it mildly ironic that as they did that they now introduce a system that basically makes the repair from junk piles obsolete, but I imagine the intention is to see it out in the wild more (It was also pointed out that they cannot do shard travel, they'll only remember a user if they return to the shard they are from, so that might be why it was added...?)

My gripe mainly stems from the fact that bishops, as they currently stand, are in an absurdly powerful spot that basically push the rook and knight out of the frame entirely. It already was the best of the three before the rework thanks to the mentioned ranged attack, and it now has that in an AoE, that also stuns. You get basically every "good" follower feature in one fell swoop: Ranged damage, crowd control, immunity to epic shrikes, very robust HP pool, and safety (in being a ranged attacker) that keeps it alive much longer than other followers.

That already pushes it very high on the follower ranking, but what really pushes it through the roof is how cheap it is to summon them at the current moment. While it does take some setup in getting the sketch, you effectively have a reliable summon that every character can utilize soon afterward with relatively little drawbacks as far as a follower is considered. Farm a few bishops for gears, then use those gears to tame as many bishops as you desire. Even a lowball amount like 3-4 would still put in a lot of work thanks to the stuns and bonus DPS, and the fact you can just keep scaling it to where it's now the everything dealer is really silly to me. I personally really don't like that since it basically makes the issues of the clockwork army worse, in that bishops are the only real thing you desire and it makes the knight/rooks feel extremely undesirable, especially since you can now choose for them to be the only thing you get.

There is the issue with the damaged clockworks in the ruins being tamable as well, which is a whole other headache that I don't really know what to say about that hasn't, well, already been said. Admittedly, at least with bishops in the ruins you only get the purple gem and never the gears back......?

I dig the concept of the chess army since A Moderately Friendly Update added the feature, and it's really nice that it has some time in the spotlight. I just hope it is refined in that there's merits in going for either broken/repaired clockworks and not leaving one or the other in the dust, and/or for there to have merit in getting all three clockworks that synergise with each other in neat ways (similar to the idea I proposed of the Knight being the balanced one, bishops being the "defensive" one, and rooks being the "offensive" one).
 

[Jakepeng99]

9 hours ago, Maxil20 said:

They need to tweak the costs of allying/summoning clockworks. A friend suggested the sculptures take 2 gears each to make, and you get those back when hammering except when you summon the clockwroks on a full moon. That alone would at least tweak them from being almost freer than Free than they currently are right now.

Yeah what i was going to say.

It shoukd be 3 gears for non broken clockworks, and 2 for regular maybe.

You should lose gears, not gaing gears

Also tbf this seems like it was done in a legit boss rush or something, they didnt just spawn them in with creative.

9 hours ago, GrapeVruit said:

 

 

     

 

BTW if its raining, the bishops will do triple damage or something

[Pumking7]

How about each player is only allowed to have two clockworks of each type, including both broken and fixed? This would fit in the theme of a chess board with each opponent having two knights, two bishops and two rooks. This would mean that spamming bishops for followers won't be broken and would require the player to rely on other clockworks. This keeps clockworks in their place in the follower meta as a tanky supporting unit which you can have few of, compared to something like bunnyman which you can have an infinite amount of weaker fighters. I really don't want clockwork followers to be nerfed to the ground and have the same use rate of followers such as pigs and bunnyman though, since almost no one uses them nowadays.

[Well-met]

Nightmare clockworks should just not be hireable at all, they're obviously tainted with shadow fuel and beyond help