The Ancient Fuelweaver has already been nerfed by the devs.

[Frosty_Mentos]

This is neither a nerf nor anything. The boss is kinda old and the new equipment simply caught up with the difficult mechanics like his to deal with as a solution.

Also, it wouldn't really do much in multiplayer (what this game is supposed to be) to nerf him cause in numbers that boss will fall in a minute or so.

This is just intended use for game mechanics. Alternative to brightshade staff always been weather pain, but it's a pain because it's a season locked item.

Other than that people by using some skill and some luck they just kite the boss and his summons by hand.

Apparently getting good at the game sometimes nerfs bosses unintentionally too.

[Mysterious box]

8 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Eh, you're just ignoring basic game design principles. I can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

The content was made many years apart so there wasn't a special principle behind it when comparing the two however you seem to ignore the fact this is a survival sandbox there is no right way to approach progression and there never has been.

[Uedo]

18 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

You guys must have missed the entire *point* of rifts content somewhere. So I’ll give you a brief Rundown, Rifts in short are Lunar & Shadow Related, you can activate One & ignore the other, you can activate BOTH & suffer the consequences of having both, or you can choose to not activate them at all & ignore their existence. To activate rifts (for either side) you have to complete a specific list of RPG style quests like fetch supplies & appease/kill gods (Grabby Granny & her Boyfriend) and beat up some more bosses that cause bad juju to start happening globally (CC, AFW)

the reward for doing so? Powerful Armor, Weapons or Tools that are used to Obliterate the opposite rift faction.

Yes you absolutely heard me right and there’s dev log recorded evidence (somewhere but I’m too lazy to search for it) that states it- Rift content is purposely designed to counter the opposing rift content.

So ding ding there you have it: AFW is Easy with a Brightshade staff because that’s the staffs entire designed purpose!

Wrong again Mike, thanks for taking part though

[Bumber64]

12 hours ago, layangan putus said:

While I like the concept, there will be an issue with the scaling logic in the code. How and when? Based on the number of players in the world or the number of players in the vicinity? Both ways can manipulate the health/armor scaling back to solo; in some cases, it can accidentally increase them when the fourth player joins the world, or accidentally in the vicinity when the fight is about to occur. Be that as it may, is it really valuable to introduce this mechanic without first checking the statistics about what percentage of DST groups consist of more than four? This healthy idea may increase the number of players, although it's been a while since I played with others.

Basically, when in boss music range, scale HP (or def) up. When moving out of range, scale back down. (Current HP is maintained as a percent. The health component is already programmed this way.)

You don't get bonus loot unless 90+% of the damage you dealt to the boss was at the appropriate difficulty.

[Jakepeng99]

21 hours ago, Edible Coal said:

i was woundering why it takes so long to load even though my internet is beefy lol

Sometimes if their videos are big enough it can crash my ipad.

[yyyyyyyyyyyyyyy]

Bait thread. @JoeW

The title is not true and irrelevant with the content.

Edited February 1 by yyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[Mysterious box]

40 minutes ago, yyyyyyyyyyyyyyy said:

Bait thread. @JoeW

The title is not true and irrelevant with the content.

How exactly? Points raised are very legitimate.

[Edible Coal]

i do like the idea of later game items provide hard fight some direct counter, is a really DST like method to make fights harder without just nerfing the boss

tingle are a direct counter to minion spams

bs staff is crowd controll that gives player a easy answer to afw hands

deep freeze staff is sorta a counter to dfly if you think about it

Edited February 1 by Edible Coal

[layangan putus]

10 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Basically, when in boss music range, scale HP (or def) up. When moving out of range, scale back down. (Current HP is maintained as a percent. The health component is already programmed this way.)

You don't get bonus loot unless 90+% of the damage you dealt to the boss was at the appropriate difficulty.

That's your table with some possibilities. Let's ignore the armor scaling for simplicity.

 

 

50% increase per player. It's still easier for more players.

 

 

100% increase per player. Basically, each player will use the same amount of weapons as if in a solo attempt, with an easier group response to boss mechanics such as invisible hands, wovens, or sporecaps.

 

 

I intentionally added DF as additional data to compare with, and also, maybe don't use DS against AFW. If they are going down this road, I'd prefer they use the 100% increase per player as a starting point. Maybe the scaling up should increase exponentially to add some excitement for larger DST groups. I have no idea how many players are actively playing as a group in DST to enjoy this idea, but I will just stick to my solo scaling with standard reward. Honestly, I am starting to question whether this is suitable for official DST.

 

"My teammates were ghosting me."

[Edible Coal]

11 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Basically, when in boss music range, scale HP (or def) up. When moving out of range, scale back down. (Current HP is maintained as a percent. The health component is already programmed this way.)

You don't get bonus loot unless 90+% of the damage you dealt to the boss was at the appropriate difficulty.

this just discourage non combat orientated character to join fights at all, like people would hate wes more because he outputs low dmg and makes the boss meatier

doesnt feel like the spirit of dst

[DegenerateFurry]

31 minutes ago, Edible Coal said:

this just discourage non combat orientated character to join fights at all, like people would hate wes more because he outputs low dmg and makes the boss meatier

doesnt feel like the spirit of dst

Less damage isn't no damage, though. If the boss gets an extra 20% HP per player, Wes is still adding 75% of a normal player's DPS output to the fight for a total reduction of 55% in the time needed to kill the boss. All you have to do is make that calculation favor adding a player over doing it solo by literally 1% and it's still worth it. 

Edited February 1 by DegenerateFurry

[Bumber64]

11 hours ago, Edible Coal said:

this just discourage non combat orientated character to join fights at all, like people would hate wes more because he outputs low dmg and makes the boss meatier

doesnt feel like the spirit of dst

If they aren't contributing anything of value, why are they present? It's reasonable to expect that they're at least killing minions or providing healing.

It's fine to be doing 75% if boss HP increases only 50% per player.

Not completely sure what to do about ghosts. I'm thinking approaching as a ghost doesn't scale up, but it won't scale down unless a dead player moves away. This gives some control over accidentally losing bonus loot, but allows moving away and coming back as a harmless observer until revived.

Edited February 1 by Bumber64

[Radicaljoe]

20 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

If they aren't contributing anything of value, why are they present? It's reasonable to expect that they're at least killing minions or providing healing.

It's fine to be doing 75% if boss HP increases only 50% per player.

Not completely sure what to do about ghosts. I'm thinking approaching as a ghost doesn't scale up, but it won't scale down unless a dead player moves away. This gives some control over accidentally losing bonus loot, but allows moving away and coming back as a harmless observer until revived.

I've seen an idea that uses a sort of retroactive defense % based on people hitting it. Sort of like how Maxwell's cage timer works, it adds more % based on how many people hit the boss. This way it prevents having a giant number on screen, prevents bystanders affecting the fight, and scales with more people.

(I say giant number on screen, I know dst doesn't have a healthbar visible, but I mean it just prevents number bloat.)

[CrimsonStrider]

@DegenerateFurry

I argue that you're the one unable to be reasoned with, and that you're comparing Apples to Algebra.

Cruvi made a good point, he's just being hyperbolic because subtly is missed here. Most people I see playing are almost exclusively doing surface stuff, which includes visiting Moonquay, Pearl and Lunar. You can progress towards CC quite a bit without it really being a goal. A lot of the whiners aren't people attempting AFW challenges. They're not very good players refusing to learn how to do the boss and refusing to practice it.

 

You've already stated that you will never change your opinion on AFW. You will always hate him etc. What's even the point of engaging with you, so long as you have that attitude? 

AFW was released before CC, way before Brightshade, and way before the current iteration of the Brightshade Staff. 

Klei did well with AFW, either intentionally or unintentionally. He was designed to be fought after experiencing all the seasons, with Summer or the 2nd Autumn a very good time. You'll have feathers, horns, cactus, mayhe jelly salads, beans and bundles. Little chance of rain. Ideal for the avg player. Yet they still left different options for different types of players. 

Better players would have an opportunity to fight during spring. Rain being a golden opportunity for good players and a hard wall for inexperienced ones.

People well practiced in the fight could comfortably make attempts in Winter.

Exceptional individuals can do it in Autumn.

Your logic fails in the expectation that because he's accessible "day one", that people of whatever skill level you're at should be able to beat him by some arbitrary time you're citing. He was not designed for someone like you to solo him in Autumn with Wilson. He was designed for someone like you to wait until spring, attempt with a friend, or practice your ass off to get consistent early runs. 

It also fails in the logic that every character should have equal viability to fight in the same arbitrary time frame you want.

Post skill tree we already see a tremendous amount of characters with really good options. Some that are choose to lose (Walter/Winona), some that have methods but require skill, then Wilson and Wes who require either being amazing or exceptional at the fight to get runs in during winter and autumn.

So when you argue that it's bad design choice to make CC this long quest to bear someone accessible in Autumn, I'll counter that and saying the bad design was allowing you to start day one with all of Walter's skills to get an easy Winter clap. 

They haven't made AFW easier, but they've released lot of options that trivialize the fight.

Would you be happier if they made AFW easier but every world required restarting your skills and being unable to unlock affinities in that world until beating said boss in that world? Or tacking on some cave hermit quest that takes most players on avg a few seasons to do so that you can't fight AFW until Spring or Summer anyway?

Because good design wouldn't be allowing you to spawn with lunar affinity Walter that can ignore getting a cane and ignore getting something 100x better than weatherpains. Good design would let us use any affinities in a specific world until beating said boss.

I'm not complaining about Walter. He's fine. I dont give a crap if one character has an easy time and another doesn't. That isn't my point in case anyone reads the above wrong.

Equality would mean retroactively padding the AFW quest so that you can't be expected to bear it in Autumn.

My advice is push for minor game related changes that causes these issues in the first place. 

Losing aggro when teleporting can ruin the fight and thats random. 

Not being able to target a woven can ruin the fight and that is bad game design.

Getting knocked into the void and now spawing somewhere else is bad game design. Void walking being removed really made that aspect of the fight stupid.

I'm 50/50 on the shield bounce because it can knock you out of bone cage, but if you mess up because the game forced you to attack AFW then that's bad game design.

They should fix those things before any other changes happen. 

Really the main thing is that people refuse to learn how to fight him without a weatherpain and lazyE. If you learn how to walk around the arena and dodge bone cage, then the fight becomes immediately easier whenever you use a character that has some option to deal with either cage or woven. 

Degen, why dont you do what's been asked and show us some of your failed attempts and maybe someone will point out something that helps you?

Also, at the guy that said "you might as well turn dmg to less"

Get lost dude. You get better at the game. Don't **** on people that don't really care about beating AFW with the settings you use.

I hope you're not one of those hypocrites that talks crap about dmg less or rifts on, while you run around with your cute little mods like boss HP, geometric placing, combined status, wildfires off, classic resources, no grass geckos etc because you don't want to deal with X. 

Edited February 2 by CrimsonStrider
typo

[Ridley]

Anyone got the numbers on W.A.R.B.O.T? Seems like a difficult boss to fight as a team and I thought I saw it has scaling difficulty depending on how much DPS it is receiving. 

Edited February 2 by Ridley

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, CrimsonStrider said:

@DegenerateFurry

I argue that you're the one unable to be reasoned with, and that you're comparing Apples to Algebra.

Cruvi made a good point, he's just being hyperbolic because subtly is missed here. Most people I see playing are almost exclusively doing surface stuff, which includes visiting Moonquay, Pearl and Lunar. You can progress towards CC quite a bit without it really being a goal. A lot of the whiners aren't people attempting AFW challenges. They're not very good players refusing to learn how to do the boss and refusing to practice it.

 

You've already stated that you will never change your opinion on AFW. You will always hate him etc. What's even the point of engaging with you, so long as you have that attitude? 

AFW was released before CC, way before Brightshade, and way before the current iteration of the Brightshade Staff. 

Klei did well with AFW, either intentionally or unintentionally. He was designed to be fought after experiencing all the seasons, with Summer or the 2nd Autumn a very good time. You'll have feathers, horns, cactus, mayhe jelly salads, beans and bundles. Little chance of rain. Ideal for the avg player. Yet they still left different options for different types of players. 

Better players would have an opportunity to fight during spring. Rain being a golden opportunity for good players and a hard wall for inexperienced ones.

People well practiced in the fight could comfortably make attempts in Winter.

Exceptional individuals can do it in Autumn.

Your logic fails in the expectation that because he's accessible "day one", that people of whatever skill level you're at should be able to beat him by some arbitrary time you're citing. He was not designed for someone like you to solo him in Autumn with Wilson. He was designed for someone like you to wait until spring, attempt with a friend, or practice your ass off to get consistent early runs. 

It also fails in the logic that every character should have equal viability to fight in the same arbitrary time frame you want.

Post skill tree we already see a tremendous amount of characters with really good options. Some that are choose to lose (Walter/Winona), some that have methods but require skill, then Wilson and Wes who require either being amazing or exceptional at the fight to get runs in during winter and autumn.

So when you argue that it's bad design choice to make CC this long quest to bear someone accessible in Autumn, I'll counter that and saying the bad design was allowing you to start day one with all of Walter's skills to get an easy Winter clap. 

They haven't made AFW easier, but they've released lot of options that trivialize the fight.

Would you be happier if they made AFW easier but every world required restarting your skills and being unable to unlock affinities in that world until beating said boss in that world? Or tacking on some cave hermit quest that takes most players on avg a few seasons to do so that you can't fight AFW until Spring or Summer anyway?

Because good design wouldn't be allowing you to spawn with lunar affinity Walter that can ignore getting a cane and ignore getting something 100x better than weatherpains. Good design would let us use any affinities in a specific world until beating said boss.

I'm not complaining about Walter. He's fine. I dont give a crap if one character has an easy time and another doesn't. That isn't my point in case anyone reads the above wrong.

Equality would mean retroactively padding the AFW quest so that you can't be expected to bear it in Autumn.

My advice is push for minor game related changes that causes these issues in the first place. 

Losing aggro when teleporting can ruin the fight and thats random. 

Not being able to target a woven can ruin the fight and that is bad game design.

Getting knocked into the void and now spawing somewhere else is bad game design. Void walking being removed really made that aspect of the fight stupid.

I'm 50/50 on the shield bounce because it can knock you out of bone cage, but if you mess up because the game forced you to attack AFW then that's bad game design.

They should fix those things before any other changes happen. 

Really the main thing is that people refuse to learn how to fight him without a weatherpain and lazyE. If you learn how to walk around the arena and dodge bone cage, then the fight becomes immediately easier whenever you use a character that has some option to deal with either cage or woven. 

Degen, why dont you do what's been asked and show us some of your failed attempts and maybe someone will point out something that helps you?

Also, at the guy that said "you might as well turn dmg to less"

Get lost dude. You get better at the game. Don't **** on people that don't really care about beating AFW with the settings you use.

I hope you're not one of those hypocrites that talks crap about dmg less or rifts on, while you run around with your cute little mods like boss HP, geometric placing, combined status, wildfires off, classic resources, no grass geckos etc because you don't want to deal with X. 

Yeah I 100% agree but it's particularly confusing to me why this debate has gone on for a long as it has when it boils down to we acknowledge there are plenty of methods to make the fight easier but we willfully ignore it because it takes longer to access those methods...

[AliceShiki]

46 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Yeah I 100% agree but it's particularly confusing to me why this debate has gone on for a long as it has when it boils down to we acknowledge there are plenty of methods to make the fight easier but we willfully ignore it because it takes longer to access those methods...

More like, "We acknowledge that there are plenty of methods to make the fight easier, but the fight is still a pain even with those methods depending on the skill level of the player because it demands a certain skillset that isn't needed anywhere else in the game and it's quite troublesome to manage it."

It's hard to take your argument seriously when you purposefully downplay the complaints of the people who dislike the fight. It's not exactly a secret that AFW is the only fight in the game that requires inventory management and active sanity management, it's easy for someone to dislike AFW when it requires you to do a bunch of stuff you never have to do in the rest of the game.

It's kinda why a lot of people hated old Crab King. It required you to do a bunch of stuff that you never needed to do anywhere else in the game, like being super careful with boat positioning to not instantly die to geysers. It's just annoying for someone who just likes the standard DST experience, and also quite hard for someone who doesn't want to put the time and effort into properly learning those skills for that one specific fight.

[Mysterious box]

6 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

More like, "We acknowledge that there are plenty of methods to make the fight easier, but the fight is still a pain even with those methods depending on the skill level of the player because it demands a certain skillset that isn't needed anywhere else in the game and it's quite troublesome to manage it."

It's hard to take your argument seriously when you purposefully downplay the complaints of the people who dislike the fight. It's not exactly a secret that AFW is the only fight in the game that requires inventory management and active sanity management, it's easy for someone to dislike AFW when it requires you to do a bunch of stuff you never have to do in the rest of the game.

It's kinda why a lot of people hated old Crab King. It required you to do a bunch of stuff that you never needed to do anywhere else in the game, like being super careful with boat positioning to not instantly die to geysers. It's just annoying for someone who just likes the standard DST experience, and also quite hard for someone who doesn't want to put the time and effort into properly learning those skills for that one specific fight.

Wait so is the end goal to remove the unique aspects of the fight due to not liking that it requires you to approach the fight differently? Yeah I get it's hard but alongside the tools to make it easier practice can help a lot in this case.

[AliceShiki]

22 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Wait so is the end goal to remove the unique aspects of the fight due to not liking that it requires you to approach the fight differently? Yeah I get it's hard but alongside the tools to make it easier practice can help a lot in this case.

There have been multiple posts across the two threads that suggested a nerf that came accompanied with some other method of letting the player fight the unnerfed Fuelweaver fight, so as to avoid a situation like the Crab King rework that left people who liked the old fight unsatisfied by the new fight. I dunno why you're ignoring that.

Edited February 2 by AliceShiki

[Mysterious box]

10 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

There have been multiple posts across the two threads that suggested a nerf that came accompanied with some other method of letting the player fight the unnerfed Fuelweaver fight, so as to avoid a situation like the Crab King rework that left people who liked the old fight unsatisfied by the new fight. I dunno why you're ignoring that.

Because I either wasn't in those threads or just didn't see them. That being said the devs likely wouldn't do that we'd either get one or the other.

[Cruvimaster]

So far, two bosses have been reworked. What did they have in common? The fact that players could only defeat them with cheese. By that logic, the next boss should be Dagonfly, since players only use walls.

Unlike the old Crab King, which was limited to a single way of fighting with an ice staff, AFW has always had many different approaches. And most players didn't need to resort to Lureplant cheese (in fact, the AFW nerf movement occurred exactly when the cheese ran out).

It makes no sense to talk about nerfing (the word rework is a fallacy, because they want it to be an easy boss for bad players. And those who want that are a minority, easily exposed in a vote) a boss that allows countless different approaches, whether using characters or legitimate items (Weather Pain, Brightshade Staff).

Not long ago we had a movement to nerf Warbot and Scion. We also have requests to nerf the Bee Queen. The only certainty I have is that they will never ask to nerf a Tree Guard.

The most curious thing is that CK got a rework because they used bees, and... the bees still have the same effect on the boss.

[DegenerateFurry]

4 hours ago, CrimsonStrider said:

@DegenerateFurry

you got under my skin BIG TIME so I'm just going to name-call you and make assumptions about skill levels 

then some valid points later on about Walter being good and Fuelweaver having flaws

The fundamental flaw of every single Fuelweaver defense argument that exists is that they all, literally every single one, ignore the fact that the A New Reign bosses were literally not designed with solo players in mind. Toadstool was a shining example of that: he originally had even more health than Misery Toadstool and would flee after five minutes. Though Klei did change that, we can see in it their design philosophy at the time: making bosses that are meant not to be possible solo. Fuelweaver comes from this era and is its worst survivor. The others from that early era all either aren't that bad or have surviving cheese methods that give solo players a viable option, like armies/fence crosses for Bee Queen or walls for Dragonfly. Klei was new to making a multiplayer game with bosses in it and it shows. The time has come to fix their past mistakes. You can only argue against this if you take an elitist position or if you disagree with the concept of playing this game solo.

Also, no, I don't judge people for using mods and the in-game settings the devs built in, I'm not a hypocrite. I myself play with resources on classic because I hate twiggy trees. 

1 hour ago, AliceShiki said:

There have been multiple posts across the two threads that suggested a nerf that came accompanied with some other method of letting the player fight the unnerfed Fuelweaver fight, so as to avoid a situation like the Crab King rework that left people who liked the old fight unsatisfied by the new fight. I dunno why you're ignoring that.

They ignore it because they don't want to be convinced to change their minds any more than I do, it's just that their opinion is that change is bad while mine is that change can make everyone happy if done correctly.

Edited February 2 by DegenerateFurry

[Bumber64]

3 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

So far, two bosses have been reworked. What did they have in common? The fact that players could only defeat them with cheese. By that logic, the next boss should be Dagonfly, since players only use walls.

DFly doesn't have any necessary loot, unless you count the furnace blueprint to get rid of junk. Toadstool's also optional, even if megabasers like mushlights. DFly doesn't use any novel mechanics. Toadstool has spore caps. Either could be reworked, but AFW's more urgent.

CK and AFW have a lot in common. They're mandatory, they heal, and they have ways to stall you from interrupting their healing. You have to simultaneously manage a boat with CK, and a whole bunch of items/mechanics for AFW.

I don't think CK actually even got easier in his rework. You need a pan flute to deal with minions or he'll heal. They just added non-boat time for attacking, but you risk falling into the water. (Personal floater was added post rework.) It's just that people aren't used to boat combat (and it sucks). Do bees not still work against him?

Did they make BQ easier or harder? I remember the honey trail being new. Bundling wrap may be necessary for infused moon shards. I don't recall it being a major rework.

Edited February 2 by Bumber64

[Cruvimaster]

18 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Either could be reworked, but AFW's more urgent.

There is no urgency. There is no need for any changes to AFW. It wasn't the difficulty that made the devs change the Ancient Guardian or Crab King. Warbot and Scion are proof that we still have developers in the game who don't give in to trivializing bosses. And as has been demonstrated, AFW becomes quite easy with the use of the Brightshade Staff.

28 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Did they make BQ easier or harder?

T.I.N.G.L.E. Node

[DegenerateFurry]

23 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

DFly doesn't have any necessary loot, unless you count the furnace blueprint to get rid of junk. Toadstool's also optional, even if megabasers like mushlights. DFly doesn't use any novel mechanics. Toadstool has spore caps. Either could be reworked, but AFW's more urgent.

CK and AFW have a lot in common. They're mandatory, they heal, and they have ways to stall you from interrupting their healing. You have to simultaneously manage a boat with CK, and a whole bunch of items/mechanics for AFW.

I don't think CK actually even got easier in his rework. You need a pan flute to deal with minions or he'll heal. They just added non-boat time for attacking, but you risk falling into the water. (Personal floater was added post rework.) It's just that people aren't used to boat combat (and it sucks). Do bees not still work against him?

Did they make BQ easier or harder? I remember the honey trail being new. Bundling wrap may be necessary for infused moon shards. I don't recall it being a major rework.

I agree with what you're saying here, but you've reminded me of just how awful Toadstool's loot is, especially now that we have Jubilanterns, which basically do the same thing for way less effort. 

As for whether or not Crab King got easier with his rework: I'd say he didn't, but he did get a lot more fair. Gone are the days where his whole fight revolves around resetting itself if you make a single mistake while making you micromanage your inventory to do six tasks at once (sound familiar?), and instead we have distinct phases that don't really overlap and have many different and reliable counter-strategies, and his healing's way easier to counteract solo now. He's a challenge, but a challenge you can beat by yourself or with friends, A+ rework.