Uncrushed Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) Beefalo Hat: Insulation: 240, No sanity bonus Winter Hat: Insulation: 120, +1.33 sanity/min Cat Cap: Insulation: 60, +3.3 sanity/min There's a balance there. More insulation = less sanity gain. The Winter Hat is the easiest to craft. Want more sanity? Find some Cat Tails. Want more insulation? Get a Beefalo Horn. But then there's this: Tam o' Shanter: Insulation: 120, +6.7 sanity/min My whole gameplay is centered around getting the Tam and spending summers in the caves with it on. Summary of Problems: RNG has too strong a role in whether you get it or not: You could play solo in a triple MacTusk world and have it on day 2 of Winter, or you might kill MacTusk every 2.5 days all winter and still not get it the first year and have a completely different year waiting for the next winter. Or in multiplayer, it's very unequal for the players who get one vs. those that don't. It completely negates watching your sanity meter. Dim light is -5 sanity/min so the Tam still gives you +1.7 sanity/min (+0.2 as Wolfgang). Just top off after boss battles and wear the Tam any time you don't need a helmet. It makes farming and eating for sanity largely irrelevant. It's a head-slot item, so you can swap your back item between backpack and armor as needed and still travel with all your hoarded stuff while gaining sanity, even in dim light! Suggestions for Improvement: Make it give +4.44 sanity/minute like the Hibernation Vest, so it still doesn't completely counter all environmental sanity drain on its own. Make it craftable. Maybe you need a Slurper Pelt, so you have to find the entrance to the Ruins, plus a Crimson feather and an Azure Feather (for the colors, and to make it take 2 seasons or require opening a lot of tumbleweeds). If you must keep it +6.7 sanity/min, make it take a Tentacle Spots too (or make it a Slurper-Pelt upgrade to the Feathered Hat). Make MacTusk always drop the tusk, but never the hat (if the hat is craftable). Or always drop both if the hat is nerfed. Story: I was just playing as Wicker in a "Lights Out" world. All autumn, I was doing various things to deal with the sanity drain. I scoured the wiki for sanity improving foods. I camped next to the Dragonfly desert to get seeds from Tumbleweeds. I made Lux Aeterna, but using it decreased my sanity, so I had a plan to move my base to a Cave Light in the Lunar Grotto as soon as I got enough good seeds, with an eye to move to the Lunar Island in a year or two. It was a real survival challenge! Then came the first day of winter. I'd found the triple-MacTusk biome which happened to be right next to the Moonstone forest, and within 2 days I had 2 Tam's and 2 Tusks and the whole plan for farming with Lux Aeterna was suddenly obsolete. I could eat for hunger and health and ignore sanity from then on. P.S. There's a "Craftable Tam" mod: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=686281866 "By default, MacTusk will drop the blueprint necessary to craft the hat. This drop is guaranteed... Recipe: Beefalo Wool x8, Silk x8, Hound's Tooth x2. Optional Ingredients: Thick Fur, Fur Tuft" Some good ideas there too. Edited January 21 by Uncrushed Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-met Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 playing lights out is not a good reason to want something nerfed. 21 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubLog6 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 36 minutes ago, Uncrushed said: Make it craftable. Maybe you need a Slurper Pelt, so you have to find the entrance to the Ruins, plus a Crimson feather and an Azure Feather (for the colors, and to make it take 2 seasons or require opening a lot of tumbleweeds). If you must keep it +6.7 sanity/min, make it take a Tentacle Spots too (or make it a Slurper-Pelt upgrade to the Feathered Hat) Yea ... ain't nobodys gonna be crafting that dawg 5 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimplyGoose Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 I think you are overvaluing the tam. The tam eventually gets outclassed by the enlightened crown. Why nerf an intermediate item like the tam? Also the stats on the tam are very well established in DST. I really see no compelling reason it should be changed, especially because there are plenty of players who get by fine without using one. 7 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echsrick Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 but can we figure out why beefalo hat is science locked while winter hat is alchemy locket? 3 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidancode Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Honestly I think the only problem with the tam is the rng. It's meant to be a strong item since for new players Walruses are legitimately quite hard to kill, especially with their doubled health from singleplayer. For us experienced players sanity isn't meant to really be an issue anyways, more of a time sink and something to be aware of. 1 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849493 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DegenerateFurry Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 40 minutes ago, aidancode said: Honestly I think the only problem with the tam is the rng. It's meant to be a strong item since for new players Walruses are legitimately quite hard to kill, especially with their doubled health from singleplayer. For us experienced players sanity isn't meant to really be an issue anyways, more of a time sink and something to be aware of. Everything you just said here is absolutely correct. Also, the RNG is a good reason for Klei to make triple mactusk guaranteed. 1 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakepeng99 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 4 hours ago, Echsrick said: but can we figure out why beefalo hat is science locked while winter hat is alchemy locket? Beefalo hat is more primative. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echsrick Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 14 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said: Beefalo hat is more primative. yet its harder to get and stronger for cold alone, i think cat cap is alchemy too Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruvimaster Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 7 hours ago, Uncrushed said: Summary of Problems: RNG has too strong a role in whether you get it or not: You could play solo in a triple MacTusk world and have it on day 2 of Winter, or you might kill MacTusk every 2.5 days all winter and still not get it the first year and have a completely different year waiting for the next winter. Or in multiplayer, it's very unequal for the players who get one vs. those that don't. A player only needs one Tam o' Shanter in the entire game. To make it easier, you can generate the world by increasing the number of Walrus Camps during world creation, without needing the triple MacTusk biome. Now imagine Wanda needing several Walrus Tusks to access teleportation. She has no choice but to spend several winters stuck in this repetitive activity instead of doing other things during winter. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruvimaster Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 8 hours ago, Uncrushed said: Suggestions for Improvement: Make it give +4.44 sanity/minute like the Hibernation Vest, so it still doesn't completely counter all environmental sanity drain on its own. You want to nerf an item that will make you insane in caves (-5)? And that's assuming you spend your summers in caves? 8 hours ago, Uncrushed said: Make it craftable. Maybe you need a Slurper Pelt, so you have to find the entrance to the Ruins, plus a Crimson feather and an Azure Feather (for the colors, and to make it take 2 seasons or require opening a lot of tumbleweeds). If you must keep it +6.7 sanity/min, make it take a Tentacle Spots too (or make it a Slurper-Pelt upgrade to the Feathered Hat). Make MacTusk always drop the tusk, but never the hat (if the hat is craftable). Or always drop both if the hat is nerfed. Definitely not. You can go 700 days without accessing the Krampus Sack, but in the first winter you'll certainly have at least one Tam o' Shanter. It's a very easy item to get and even easier to repair (Sewing Kit). Besides, now there's even the new Christmas tree set piece that includes it among the gifts. 1 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceShiki Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 I don't think the sanity regen is that big of a deal? I mean... Yeah, it is nice, but it's not like Crawling Horrors are hard to kill. Sanity management is not a huge deal outside of not wanting to deal with the Ocean version of Terrorbeaks. To me the Tam'O'Shelter is just an option that is worse than Beefalo Hat, but better than the Winter Hat. I really don't think it's that impressive. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baark0 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Why? Of everything in the game you want nerfed, you want the Tam to be made worse? The sanity is nice, but it's far from a universal solution to sanity. Any boss with a negative sanity aura will absolutely demolish the Tam's passive sanity generation, so saying it removes the need to eat and farm sanity food just isn't true. The insulation is alright, but very few people actually use the Tam because of its insulation. Most people run around with thermal stones because they're better for every character that isn't Webber Wilson or Woodie, and even then they'll probably use one anyways just because thermal stones don't take up equipment slots. It also doesn't negate your sanity meter, not in the slightest. The Tam breaks after 20 days, and while that is an incredibly long duration, it will break eventually if you don't pay attention to it. Not only that, but if you want to equip any other head slot items (such as an eyebrella or football helmet) you lose the passive sanity effect. This is especially noticeable in spring, since dusk lasts a long time and theres plenty of rain to keep the Tam off your head. Unless you're using the rain coat, you're probably gonna have to give up the Tam if you don't want to suffer the effects of high wetness. Also, if the Tam was a body slot item, it'd see just as much use as items like the rain coat, hibearnation vest, etc. It being a head slot item is the only thing saving it from irrelevancy like most other body slot clothes. The changes you suggested would lowkey kill any reason to use the item. The recipe addition is whatever, it gives you even less reason to revisit walrus camps after you get a cane, but it's fine. The sanity nerfs however completely remove any reason to wear a Tam. The whole point of the item is that it negates the passive sanity drain of dusk and night, so nerfing that would make it a winter hat that requires more effort to get. tldr nerfing tam is kinda silly and would kinda just add another relatively useless clothing item to the game. Plus, people like the tam: nerfing it would just make a bunch of people unhappy. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyoton123 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 I think it’s a little obnoxious that the cane and tam both are rng off the same mob (the tam is good but i’d rather get the cane!), but i dont see a huge deal with good gear being accessible, especially since it won’t scale for multiplayer. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
landromat Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 that's nice solution. More tams but weaker overall is probably better for game and head gear diversity Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxil20 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 I feel like this post showcases the problem is that chest slot items are just, not very good in terms of sanity restoration in general? The boss drop of the hubearnation vest being worse than the tam is a pretty good showcase of that, especially when compared to the head slot, the chest slot has much more competition in the form of backpacks and things like the magi. I really do feel that they need a flat 2X multiplier to their sanity restoration across the board. It would help chest clothing out quite a bit, with things like the dapper vest especially going from a chest slot top hat that’s harder to make to a situationally accessible sanity restoration item a player could consistently make by visiting mactusk twice or inevitably from the hound attacks that occur. 1 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-met Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 2 minutes ago, Maxil20 said: I feel like this post showcases the problem is that chest slot items are just, not very good in terms of sanity restoration in general? The boss drop of the hubearnation vest being worse than the tam is a pretty good showcase of that the tam doesn't slow down your hunger though? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxil20 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 4 minutes ago, Well-met said: the tam doesn't slow down your hunger though? Tangent timeee: I used to think this was important, until I did the math and realized the amount of hunger you would save in 5 days was ~93.75 if you wore the vest. That's only slightly more than one average crockpot meal. To really Emphasize this point, wearing a belt of hunger for 5 days saves a total of 150 hunger, or one meaty stew. It also only impacts the passive drain, so things like Winona's flat hunger reduction when crafting something just doesn't get reduced at all. DST also isn't really a world where food is a particularly challenging aspect to keep management of. This is a pretty big contrast to something like Hamlet, where it is a fairly noticeable obstacle that you can't body as easily, and I ended up benefiting a lot from the belt from the Flying Pig shop to get by (that DLC in general was a nice change of pace, ended up benefiting a lot more from chest slot items than I would have otherwise). The only times I could see it really benefiting is for players who have low max hunger. Walter/Wigfrid/Wes are the only ones I can think of in particular, with 2 of them having considerably easier methods of getting (meat) food to use for crockpotting. I think the only time I really saw it used was back when Wolfgang's hunger drain scaled with mightiness/damage output, so a 40% reduction was actually very helpful with him specifically, but since that's been changed I basically haven't seen anyone try to use either item for a very long time. 2 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidancode Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 15 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said: Everything you just said here is absolutely correct. Also, the RNG is a good reason for Klei to make triple mactusk guaranteed. I would prefer making tusks a 100% drop chance, tams a 33% drop chance, and making 2 mactusk camps always spawn in the forest instead of just 1. thats enough that multiplayer worlds wouldn't end up with a crazy shortage while still allowing for more biome diversity. 2 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceShiki Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 1 hour ago, Maxil20 said: I feel like this post showcases the problem is that chest slot items are just, not very good in terms of sanity restoration in general? The boss drop of the hubearnation vest being worse than the tam is a pretty good showcase of that, especially when compared to the head slot, the chest slot has much more competition in the form of backpacks and things like the magi. I really do feel that they need a flat 2X multiplier to their sanity restoration across the board. It would help chest clothing out quite a bit, with things like the dapper vest especially going from a chest slot top hat that’s harder to make to a situationally accessible sanity restoration item a player could consistently make by visiting mactusk twice or inevitably from the hound attacks that occur. I mean... 120 Insulation VS 240 Insulation? I'd say Hibearnation Vest is way better than Tam'O'Shelter for the same reason I'd say that Beefalo Hat is way better than Tam'O'Shelter... The fact that Hibearnation Vest also gives Sanity is just a bonus IMO. 2 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxil20 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 (edited) 4 hours ago, AliceShiki said: I mean... 120 Insulation VS 240 Insulation? I'd say Hibearnation Vest is way better than Tam'O'Shelter for the same reason I'd say that Beefalo Hat is way better than Tam'O'Shelter... The fact that Hibearnation Vest also gives Sanity is just a bonus IMO. I personally consider insulation/sanity regen to be around the same value, at least for my experience. While its true the insulation bonus is quite an upgrade compared to the tam, winter also is only one of the four seasons. For over 75% of the time, insulation will be a pretty moot mechanic outside of situations like wetness or the early spring nights. By comparison, the sanity gain is pretty effective for the entire year, and the passive drain of dusk/night is pretty noticeable for most of spring and late autumn in addition to winter. Edited January 22 by Maxil20 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-met Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 I'm sure undermining the bearger vest adds alot to this topic but I'm more interested in the original premise Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DegenerateFurry Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 hour ago, Well-met said: I'm sure undermining the bearger vest adds alot to this topic but I'm more interested in the original premise Can't undermine what's already lower than bedrock. That thing's trash and needs a buff, as do many chest slot non-armors. 1 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edible Coal Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 3 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said: Can't undermine what's already lower than bedrock. That thing's trash and needs a buff, as do many chest slot non-armors. bearger vest is not that bad, walking around with 240*2 insulation and hunger reduce is pretty fun 1 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DegenerateFurry Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 hour ago, Edible Coal said: bearger vest is not that bad, walking around with 240*2 insulation and hunger reduce is pretty fun Except it is because that means you have no backpack. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/169573-how-and-why-to-nerf-the-tam-o-shanter/#findComment-1849660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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