Why do we rarely get balance updates?

[_zwb]

Rarely? We've been getting character updates for years now, plenty opportunities to rebalance, klei is clearly not good at balancing. Or perhaps it's not a profitable direction for them compared to just making everyone powerful

[GimplyGoose]

I think there are a few things in the game that could be tweaked a bit. Honestly, I think Maxwell's shadow prison should have a cool down like they have done with other selection wheel abilities with the other characters. I think it would be appropriate to make that change when they release his skill tree.

As far as things like boss health, crock pot dishes, or underpowered pieces of equipment goes... I think a lot of it should just be left alone.

[DVGMedia]

46 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

especially the temperature-shifting ones lasting 2

well the best ones are 15 seconds of warming and cooling like with one teir 3 gear thats 150 seconds of protection.
the sad part is how it works. for many different reasons. 
the warming for the hot foods decay over time and decays faster while in the fridge to where it becomes useless. UNLESS! you pull an item from the stack.
Doing so resets the hotfood timer and gives the full buff.
And also the fact that its only +- 40 from ambient.  so at the coldest/ hottest parts of the year.  you are only going to get a maximum of 17~ degreees of protection and warming from them.  I would say buffing it to 60 would be good cause thats at least  what a lvl 2 campfire does and lets you get at least to 35 degrees.

15 seconds though is pretty good cause gotta compare it to the alternatives.  Burning a tree is 45 seconds. and this is warming that you can gain while still doing actions.

So i would instead say increase the strength of the warming /cooling to 60. and make the hot food buff consistent.
the only hot food buffs that are consistent are warly's spicy dishes.  and his specialty temperature dishes as well as fire nettles.
The cooling ones are all consistent with values that don't decay
 

Edited May 20, 2025 by DVGMedia

[Maxil20]

10 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

Snip

I was particularly referring to hot dragon chili salad and asparagazpacho, Warly’s heating/cooling dishes made from farm crops that heat/cool you for 5 minutes, not the heat/cooling dishes in general (which I do agree on your points, it just wasn’t the main point when mentioning those).

 

[AliceShiki]

40 minutes ago, GimplyGoose said:

As far as things like boss health, crock pot dishes, or underpowered pieces of equipment goes... I think a lot of it should just be left alone.

I'm curious about it... Why would you say that Breezy Vest should be essentially useless while Puffy Vest is the best Body piece for Winter (not counting stuff you can only get on 2nd Autumn, like Hibearnation Vest)?

I don't think there is anything wrong with Puffy Vest being better than Breezy Vest, but I do find it weird that they have such a huge gap... I'd really like Breezy Vest if it was 120 Insulation instead of 60 OTOH. It would essentially be the body-version of Winter Hat.

[Keller Max]

4 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

I'm curious about it... Why would you say that Breezy Vest should be essentially useless while Puffy Vest is the best Body piece for Winter (not counting stuff you can only get on 2nd Autumn, like Hibearnation Vest)?

I don't think there is anything wrong with Puffy Vest being better than Breezy Vest, but I do find it weird that they have such a huge gap... I'd really like Breezy Vest if it was 120 Insulation instead of 60 OTOH. It would essentially be the body-version of Winter Hat.

I always thought that Puffy was 240 and Breezy was 120. Only now I realized that Breezy is only 60, so basically a garbage Earmuffs tier.

[GimplyGoose]

19 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

I'm curious about it... Why would you say that Breezy Vest should be essentially useless while Puffy Vest is the best Body piece for Winter (not counting stuff you can only get on 2nd Autumn, like Hibearnation Vest)?

I don't think there is anything wrong with Puffy Vest being better than Breezy Vest, but I do find it weird that they have such a huge gap... I'd really like Breezy Vest if it was 120 Insulation instead of 60 OTOH. It would essentially be the body-version of Winter Hat.

One of the reasons I think undertuned items should be left alone is because there will always be items that just aren't as good as other items. If you buff them to compensate, they either will: not get a strong enough buff and still be weak OR become a stronger item that displaces another item, making that item weak. This leads to a situation where everything kinda just gets power crept up forever. Nerfs can help offset this, but very few people are pleased with nerfs.

Also, DST has been around for a while now, so which items  are good or bad is pretty well established by the community. Just because the numbers on something are bad, doesn't mean the item can't work.You ccan get through winter jst fine with a bbreezy vest and cat cap even if you would have a better time with a puffy vest/beefalo hat.

I'm not totally against the idea of altering undertuned items, but I think it would probably take a lot of work to do right and it might be better if that effort was spent elsewhere.

Edited May 21, 2025 by GimplyGoose
Formatting was all messed up

[Popian]

Legacy: it's been that way for so long that it would likely upset those who have been doing things a specific way. It will also make wikis wrong and may also break mods. Doesn't mean that they're not allowed to nerf, just that adding on is the safer choice.

You have people blame Wanda that 95% damage reduction exists, but there is an attempt with planar damage to get you to use armors with weaker base resistance.

[Edible Coal]

39 minutes ago, GimplyGoose said:

One of the reasons I think undertuned items should be left alone is because there will always be items that just aren't as good as other items. If you buff them to compensate, they either will: not get a strong enough buff and still be weak OR become a stronger item that displaces another item, making that item weak. This leads to a situation where everything kinda just gets power crept up forever. Nerfs can help offset this, but very few people are pleased with nerfs.

Also, DST has been around for a while now, so which items  are good or bad is pretty well established by the community. Just because the numbers on something are bad, doesn't mean the item can't work.You ccan get through winter jst fine with a bbreezy vest and cat cap even if you would have a better time with a puffy vest/beefalo hat.

I'm not totally against the idea of altering undertuned items, but I think it would probably take a lot of work to do right and it might be better if that effort was spent elsewhere.

good item cost more thus make sense to make them, cheap item cost less and are a bit weaker

[Chewabacca]

I kind of assumed stuffed eggplant was a punishment dish meant to push players towards cooking crops. At least, that was the effect for me, though I’m not sure that was the intent.

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Crockpot dishes have always been way too good & beneficial, and I strongly feel like if a mode were to be added so foods only restore hunger, but to heal you’d need to use the health tab of items (which keep getting more health tab items btw..) we would be playing a drastically different version of DS.

Have you tried playing Wormwood, by any chance? He has this exact downside.

In terms of updates getting a less narrow focus, the only thing that I’d really like to see is a fix to the Webber lag problem without it being set aside until his skill tree comes along. Would also point out that if you go to the update notes, you can often see small adjustments much like the sort OP is talking about: the beefalo change and buff to Wonkey’s sprint from last update come to mind, for example. 

[AliceShiki]

2 hours ago, GimplyGoose said:

One of the reasons I think undertuned items should be left alone is because there will always be items that just aren't as good as other items. If you buff them to compensate, they either will: not get a strong enough buff and still be weak OR become a stronger item that displaces another item, making that item weak. This leads to a situation where everything kinda just gets power crept up forever. Nerfs can help offset this, but very few people are pleased with nerfs.

Also, DST has been around for a while now, so which items  are good or bad is pretty well established by the community. Just because the numbers on something are bad, doesn't mean the item can't work.You ccan get through winter jst fine with a bbreezy vest and cat cap even if you would have a better time with a puffy vest/beefalo hat.

I'm not totally against the idea of altering undertuned items, but I think it would probably take a lot of work to do right and it might be better if that effort was spent elsewhere.

Mmmmmm... I can kinda see your point, but I think that would only be the case if it was a big enough buff to make the item "good", while what I wanted was a buff to make the item "less bad"...

I feel like trying to make an item good without really creating a snowball effect of everything needing buffs would certainly require a fair amount of work and careful fine-tune, but... Making useless items become sorta-useful would be much easier IMO... Like, Breezy Vest is the easiest example where it just needs 120 Insulation instead of 60... It's still bad, but at least it would be a viable Winter Hat alternative for characters that want to put armor in the head slot (like Wigfrid).

And like, Stuffed Eggplants could at least heal 20 HP, which is the same as the cooked Eggplant, so it would at least be a viable dish option if you used like... Eggplant + Red Mushroom + Twig + Twig. Still wouldn't be anything impressive, but it would be a viable option to preserve the HP-healing properties of an Eggplant that was spoiling.

That's basically the kind of buff to items I would personally want. Not big enough to make them feel worthwhile when compared to the already established good options (Beefalo Hat/Thermal Stone and Pierogi), but that would at least make them feel like they aren't useless... This kind of thing.

I get your point that it could be more trouble than it's worth and that there is the risk of Klei overtuning the items though. It's a valid worry... I feel like they could just maintain the items as undertuned, but like... The useful kind of undertuned though. That should solve most issues of those items IMO~

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, Chewabacca said:

I kind of assumed stuffed eggplant was a punishment dish meant to push players towards cooking crops. At least, that was the effect for me, though I’m not sure that was the intent.

It punishes you for trying to use eggplant at all. Potato is absolutely superior in and out of crock pot. Same nutrients, more common seed, grows well in an additional season.

Edited May 21, 2025 by Bumber64

[Hungry French]

Someone is seriously talking about the balance of the game, when in the game you can safely do without using only meatballs and perogies, as well as a backpack, eyebrella, beefalo hat and Luxury Fan and Thermal stone.
Moreover, many people rush bosses, ruins and lunar island, and the bosses themselves are bad. 
It doesn't look like a good balance.

 

To make a really good balance, you need to spend months testing everything in the game. 
And some people won't like it because people like unbalanced things. 
Show me more than 1 person who considers 1 monster meat and 3 ice for 62.5 satiety a balanced recipe

[lowercase skye]

1 hour ago, Hungry French said:

Show me more than 1 person who considers 1 monster meat and 3 ice for 62.5 satiety a balanced recipe

Mining ice for meatballs is a major time waster in a season that has other important stuff to do like MacTusk and Klaus. And those resulting meatballs only give you hunger, and honestly not very much of it: 62.5 hunger isn't even half of the hunger bar for most characters, and you're getting only 3 health and 5 sanity, compared to dishes like Bacon and Eggs that also give you health, or Barnacle Linguine that gives a massive boost to your sanity and health in addition to filling half your hunger bar.

Monster meat + ice for meatballs is a very powerful option for new players, as it's relatively easy and low effort compared to other recipes, but it falls way way WAY off once you're more skilled at the game and can get to the "higher effort" options without much trouble at all. Once you're skilled enough to make a bird cage or even just row a boat into dark waters, meatballs immediately fall off to a crazy degree.

So, that's one person. Click like on this post if you are more than one person who considers 1 monster meat and 3 ice a balanced recipe.

Edited May 21, 2025 by lowercase skye

[BB Marioni]

I kinda miss the Playstation 2 days, where you just get one game and it stays as it is forever. Since balance updates became a thing in games, it just feels tiring that the balance changes never ends because players are never satisfied and different players want different things. It just becomes a never ending cycle, and characters that you love and learned at first become totally different characters after a while. 

[shaurun]

9 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

The opposite end of the spectrum is having an eggplant dish that Klei could completely remove and nobody would even notice.

Haha)

Well, eggplant dish is something I try to avoid but when playing w/o mods and have a bad memory it' still produced sometimes and I feel it like a punishment lol. Anyway it has some place, however you're right, dishes could give you more, maybe not in terms of stats per dish, but in terms of quantity, like number of portions per ingridients, so you can share with friends.

Imagine you friend collected 1 carrot, you found 1 meat, someone brought 2 ice - and you try to make some soup, which then you share between each other and all gain some small benefit.

 

Gameplay wise, I tend to not have a crockpot at all or just have 1-2 for steamed twigs for beefalo. There's plenty of food in the world to leave w/o crockpots at all, so yes, all the gardening + crockpot feels optional once you know how to play.

[Edible Coal]

5 hours ago, Chewabacca said:

I kind of assumed stuffed eggplant was a punishment dish meant to push players towards cooking crops. At least, that was the effect for me, though I’m not sure that was the intent.

 

i dont see the point of punshing player for using a egg plant, this isnt the case like monster lagsana which punish the players for using two monster meat in a 2 meat required dish

[marshyds]

A balance update meant to add more uses to outclassed things like the cattail cap not being a really pointless winter item or clothing items having 4 inventory slots would be nice.

Character balance updates are a very volatile thing and I don't think anyone is brave enough to meddle with.

[Frosty_Mentos]

I feel like they could have compensated with bunny puffs having either more use or dropping in addition to the food item instead of one of three. That'd be the compensation for being less attractive to make an army of since the big nerf.

Food buffs and farmed food dish expansion feels like a need.

Maul is both in comfortable and uncomfortable place for how it works, both making it longterm world weapon that's too broken and a bit of a hassle to maintain.

Wicker book situation is strange when it comes to Maxwell, I don't see reason to needing to take away the power from him. Wicker should just gain more power and comfort of carrying her books in easier storage solution to be useful everywhere anytime, probably portable mini bookcase might be neat to have, having same regen to keep books repaired.

I wish for a better tier weapons for both the Cat o three tails as well as maybe having second form to fencing sword to be a dash attack or armor breaking weapon of sorts.

We need enemies with armor and visible type of armor, like rocklobsters or guard pigs but as well as we should gain an armor breaking ability like from forge, it might give us more options to deal with bosses like toad by breaking that protection bonus of sorts.

We could use more adaptive enemies. Ruins bots should gain a level up, nightmare loot increase as well as danger and trap increase. If rifts were to change things it should change things for the intrigue and challenge. Specific enemies with secondary attacks that would have ranged, or even reflect/bounce off attack like brightshades/fuelweaver if not done well to deal with them.

Berries, stonefruit and banana bushes should we slightly weaker in favor of using farm plots under them to double yields or even improve them, berry bushes in general I feel like should have a more thriving state you could grow them in.

Wormwood berry bush crafting should be cheaper. Period.

Also put Maxwell in a jar.

[Chewabacca]

6 hours ago, Edible Coal said:

i dont see the point of punshing player for using a egg plant, this isnt the case like monster lagsana which punish the players for using two monster meat in a 2 meat required dish

I was saying that on my end the “point” was that it pushed me to try out cooking crops instead of stuffing them into a crockpot, because of how much better cooked eggplant is over the crockpot version. Pretty sure that and pumpkins were what influenced me to discover how good roasted potatoes are. Again, don’t know if that was the devs’ intent, but stuffed eggplant’s stats are so abysmal, especially compared to cooked eggplants, that it’s hard to believe that the devs actually expected people to purposefully make it. 
 

11 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

It punishes you for trying to use eggplant at all. Potato is absolutely superior in and out of crock pot. Same nutrients, more common seed, grows well in an additional season.

Throwing the idea out there: what if eggplant was changed from being a fall seasonal to a summer one (the one season that potatoes don’t like)? 

[Bumber64]

2 hours ago, Chewabacca said:

Throwing the idea out there: what if eggplant was changed from being a fall seasonal to a summer one (the one season that potatoes don’t like)? 

It would still have to compete with dragon fruit, but it's a simpler option. (No twigs or crock pot, 1:1 ratio with toma root.)

I'd still say stuffed eggplant needs doubled hunger or servings. Punishment dishes should be reserved for lazy uses of easy resources. If anything, fancy spiraled tubers should've been a punishment dish for using twigs instead of garlic.

Edited May 21, 2025 by Bumber64

[FillerText]

9 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

If anything, fancy spiraled tubers should've been a punishment dish for using twigs instead of garlic.

It's literally just 15 sanity, and half a meatball instead of 20 hp, and better hunger gain if you're Wolfgang. It's only okay because Potatoes are disposable to the point that wasting any healing doesn't matter. Even then, you would just have the tomatoes to make Vegetable Stingers anyway.

[Evelo]

I'd like balance changes. But seeing as what is going on with skill trees, I feel like it would rebalance to make the game easier than it already is (from a numbers perspective, not a mechanics). I'd like for clothing items to be more useful in someway even if it is via new mechanics. The Breezy Vest would be a windbreaker like what you see in the Shipwrecked windy season. Catcoon Hat could for instance allow you to get a 25% chance to get an extra birchnut when chopping down a Birchnut tree (any season). Winter Hat could give more sanity because of the terrible insulation. The Tamoshanter could have its health reduced a little bit. Summer clothing could be... good without requiring the Cawnival to make a proper good uh reverse insulation (i forgot the term) chest piece. Tents could be buffed or nerf the Lean-to. Followers could benefit from an AI rework so they are more useful but cannot be massed too highly (except spiders cause that makes sense for spiders, less so merms and bunnymen).

So many possibilities for rebalancing that could be simple numbers tweaking or add new stuff to unused existing items.

[Frashaw27]

there is a variety of reasons why we don't see many rebalances but it mostly boils down to many people having wildly different interpretations of what balance is. Some people see beefalos as a worthy investment for taking care of something other then yourself, others sees them as a bastardized form of character homogeny. Some people think's it wrong for maxwell to be able to read wickerbottom's books with nearly no penalty while others think that it's fine and wickerbottom "just needs to do more to match him". Some people think wanda is a glass cannon because she actively has to manage her resources to stay in the optimal damage range while others say she isn't because of x, y, or z. This difference in opinions makes it difficult to truly rebalance anything as it will always result in pissing a group of people off. There is also the fact that if your gonna do it right, a balance patch has to carefully consider how each piece interacts in order to make each thing truly shine, which could take a significant amount of time which people still might not like. Like most things, balancing this game is a lot more deep then just adjusting some numbers and there comes a point where you have to ask if you're going to constantly retweak old content in favor of making new content. I feel like the "optimal" thing to do is to do a balancing update for all the characters once all the skill trees are done so they can be finished off on a relatively even ground then bleeding through the various years.

[Edible Coal]

1 hour ago, Frashaw27 said:

there is a variety of reasons why we don't see many rebalances but it mostly boils down to many people having wildly different interpretations of what balance is. Some people see beefalos as a worthy investment for taking care of something other then yourself, others sees them as a bastardized form of character homogeny. Some people think's it wrong for maxwell to be able to read wickerbottom's books with nearly no penalty while others think that it's fine and wickerbottom "just needs to do more to match him". Some people think wanda is a glass cannon because she actively has to manage her resources to stay in the optimal damage range while others say she isn't because of x, y, or z. This difference in opinions makes it difficult to truly rebalance anything as it will always result in pissing a group of people off. There is also the fact that if your gonna do it right, a balance patch has to carefully consider how each piece interacts in order to make each thing truly shine, which could take a significant amount of time which people still might not like. Like most things, balancing this game is a lot more deep then just adjusting some numbers and there comes a point where you have to ask if you're going to constantly retweak old content in favor of making new content. I feel like the "optimal" thing to do is to do a balancing update for all the characters once all the skill trees are done so they can be finished off on a relatively even ground then bleeding through the various years.

a item is suppose to only compare it self or item that serves the same purpose , it should not be pair with character