Hot take: Wanda would be better designed, more fun and more interesting if the Alarming clock was removed (+Wanda mini rework)

[GrapeVruit]

@WilsonHiggsI didn't say that I'm against using more ageless watches and night armor as Wanda. It's a sandbox game, you can do whatever the heck you want in it. But if so many people don't believe Wanda is a "glass cannon" solely by using the tools the game gives them, then I don't know what to say. If it's really impacting the fun your having in your world, then you can always use something else or approach things in a different way. It can certainly make the game much more exciting. Also, "doesn't have real arguments"? How entitled do you have to be to think your opinion is higher than anyone else that disagrees with you? 

[WilsonHiggs]

1 hour ago, GrapeVruit said:

@WilsonHiggsI didn't say that I'm against using more ageless watches and night armor as Wanda. It's a sandbox game, you can do whatever the heck you want in it. But if so many people don't believe Wanda is a "glass cannon" solely by using the tools the game gives them, then I don't know what to say. If it's really impacting the fun your having in your world, then you can always use something else or approach things in a different way. It can certainly make the game much more exciting. Also, "doesn't have real arguments"? How entitled do you have to be to think your opinion is higher than anyone else that disagrees with you? 

But, if you are disagreeing, you aren't using counter arguments. Just telling us "this is what it is, ignore content instead to suggest in base of your point of view of what a glass canon should be"

I don't enjoy Wolfgang or Winona but I won't ask to nerf their current state

[GrapeVruit]

25 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

But, if you are disagreeing, you aren't using counter arguments. Just telling us "this is what it is, ignore content instead to suggest in base of your point of view of what a glass canon should be"

I don't enjoy Wolfgang or Winona but I won't ask to nerf their current state

Alright, fine, I'll get on you're level. If I got this right, you and a few others here aren't happy that Wanda isn't the glass canon character that Klei claimed her to be, as you can tank absurd amounts of damage by wearing night armor, staying at range with her clock, and having "free" healing with her watches. You're upset that she isn't as frail with these items the game incentivizes you to use, and when someone tells you to use weaker armor or less watches, you believe their not worth considering as it serves to ignore content to make the game artificially difficult and you want to use the tools that the character pushes you to use. 

When laid out like this, I can understand how the statement, "Don't like it? Don't use it.", comes off as very hand-wavy and as a "non-argument". I mean, if I was upset that Willow's fire spells were too strong and someone said to not use them, I don't think it'd sway me to drop them. They're a cool part of the character's kit, and I don't want to stop using them, but they're too strong and make the game easier, so I'm not sure what to do. 

My question to you is what would you do about this? Is Wanda really not a glass canon or does immense amount of experience get in the way of that? Would you suggest Klei nerf her old age damage with the AC, DR from night armor, and made dark swords more damaging on her? That would certainly make her fit the archetype much more than before, but is that really a good idea? As much as I'd advocate for nerfs across the roster, especially for characters like Maxwell, Klei doesn't really nerf characters, as I feel like a good chunk of players, even some here on the forums, would be outraged that their character got weaker while others went completely unchanged or got massive buffs, and I highly doubt they'd do it for the one's you have to pay real money for, like Wanda. 

While changes like these could make Wanda more fun to players like us, I doubt it'd be the same for players that are on the other side of the spectrum. Should we really change characters that only a small percentage will actually like, and have the rest get a worse, less fun character in their place, one you also have to pay real money for? I feel like instead waiting for Klei to change these items or characters, you could opt to make the game much more challenging yourself. It's not the greatest solution, and if I could, I'd want them to nerf these things themselves, but at your level of play, I don't think nerfs, if they were to come, would even stop Wanda from feeling too tanky or too strong.

[DVGMedia]

30 minutes ago, GrapeVruit said:

. They're a cool part of the character's kit, and I don't want to stop using them, but they're too strong and make the game easier, so I'm not sure what to do. 

That's kind of what I think too like with the affinity forms of Wendy. 

I want to be able to use these skills however they seem so not worth using unless have a big farm dedicated to them 

[Guille6785]

11 hours ago, CrimsonStrider said:

Is Guille going to main someone like that? Probably not. Might be a fun now and then challenge but probably too stressful for regular use.

yeah I'd like to main an interesting character for a change

11 hours ago, CrimsonStrider said:

I'm very clearly pointing out the hypocrisy of everyone wanting a glass cannon Wanda. Why aren't you just challenging yourself? Because you don't care about the challenge. If you did you'd be doing it.

already did, try again 

 

9 hours ago, GrapeVruit said:

Also, if people don't believe her to fit the archetype, then why are players bringing night armor with them, or using extra ageless watches? If she's able to output so much damage at range, why bother playing it safe? Is it because deep down, they know without that safety net, Wanda is really fragile at old age and needs as much help as she can get? 

ooooor maybe it's because night armor is unlocked with the exact same research station as her exclusive weapon and because she doesn't suffer the downside of wearing it, the developers literally push you to use it as her because there's no reason not to, that's the issue people are pointing out

[GrapeVruit]

15 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

yeah I'd like to main an interesting character for a change

already did, try again 

 

ooooor maybe it's because night armor is unlocked with the exact same research station as her exclusive weapon and because she doesn't suffer the downside of wearing it, the developers literally push you to use it as her because there's no reason not to, that's the issue people are pointing out

So what is there to do? Give Wanda less DR from it, less hp? Either way, I don't see a situation that would make this fun to play around.

[Theukon-dos]

4 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Old Wanda dies in 3 hits to dfly if wearing football helmets only. Wilson dies in 10 hits if at full hp and wearing football helmets only.

Old Wanda is more than 3 times as fragile compared to Wilson and Old Wanda is 4 times more fragile if both wilson and old wanda are wearing marble armour.......

This entire thread isn't using or considering mathematic evidence.

While Wanda gives you the freedom to play her more passively as young Wanda, for you to get the max worth out of her you need to play as old. This is a fact.

Wanda is a glass cannon, just because you can play passively if you want doesn't make this any less true.

Being 4 times less tanky while using marble suits/night armour is absolutely crazy.

Go fight dragonfly as Wilson using marble suits, you literally don't need to even look anywhere near your health meter even if the fight takes longer than if you did it with old Wanda.

You know what's transparent from this thread? Forum users don't use 95% armours on regular hp characters hence this weird false feeling of old Wanda having same level of survivability as every other character when she definitely doesn't.

Nobody's ignoring the math. The math just isn't the only factor at play here.

 

Yes, Old Wanda can only take a fraction of the punishment as other characters. But when you have 95% damage reduction, that "fraction" is still a very large number. if she dies in 3 hits to Dfly with football helmet. But with night armor that's what? 12 hits? 11? That gives you a massive window of error to course-correct any mistakes you make. And the whole point of glass cannons is that you're supposed to trade that window of error for massive rewards if you managed to avoid it.

 

And yes, most characters don't feel the need to wear 95% damage resistance armor. But Wanda's shadow affinity in old age means she looses a lot less sanity from wearing night armor. So not only does the stuff almost fully negate her low health, she's also paying a lot less to use it than nearly every other character in the game.

And both of those things are compounding with the fact that the vast majority of her kit is designed to keep her alive despite the low HP. She has indefinitly recharging watches that healer, a backstep watch to dodge attacks, and a cheap revival option via the second chance watch.

 

Theoretically, Wanda can survive a hit that deals infinite damage. Because unlike every other survivor in the game, any damage Wanda takes is dealt over a small period of time rather than instantly all at once. And using the ageless watch will cancel any damage that Wanda is currently taking in addition to lowering her age. Meaning if you're fast enough, you could get hit for infinite damage, and then use the ageless watch to cancel the hit and survive.

[Guille6785]

1 hour ago, GrapeVruit said:

So what is there to do? Give Wanda less DR from it, less hp? Either way, I don't see a situation that would make this fun to play around.

On 4/19/2025 at 2:55 AM, Guille6785 said:

What if the alarming clock was kept as is but she had potentially higher damage from other weapons (like dark swords and thule clubs) when super close to death, like 5 hp away from dying or something? Or what if not wearing any armor could boost the damage of those weapons (while the alarming clock has its role as the safe option with consistent damage)? that way the people who like wanda as is can keep playing her the same way and nothing changes for them, while people like me who find her to a snoozefest can actually engage with real glass cannon mechanics (and without needing to start every world by instantly rushing tier 2 magic)

[Bumber64]

4 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Meaning if you're fast enough, you could get hit for infinite damage, and then use the ageless watch to cancel the hit and survive.

But she handles GDW and temperature damage especially badly instead.

[Gashzer]

13 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Nobody's ignoring the math. The math just isn't the only factor at play here.

 

Yes, Old Wanda can only take a fraction of the punishment as other characters. But when you have 95% damage reduction, that "fraction" is still a very large number. if she dies in 3 hits to Dfly with football helmet. But with night armor that's what? 12 hits? 11? That gives you a massive window of error to course-correct any mistakes you make. And the whole point of glass cannons is that you're supposed to trade that window of error for massive rewards if you managed to avoid it.

 

And yes, most characters don't feel the need to wear 95% damage resistance armor. But Wanda's shadow affinity in old age means she looses a lot less sanity from wearing night armor. So not only does the stuff almost fully negate her low health, she's also paying a lot less to use it than nearly every other character in the game.

And both of those things are compounding with the fact that the vast majority of her kit is designed to keep her alive despite the low HP. She has indefinitly recharging watches that healer, a backstep watch to dodge attacks, and a cheap revival option via the second chance watch.

Theoretically, Wanda can survive a hit that deals infinite damage. Because unlike every other survivor in the game, any damage Wanda takes is dealt over a small period of time rather than instantly all at once. And using the ageless watch will cancel any damage that Wanda is currently taking in addition to lowering her age. Meaning if you're fast enough, you could get hit for infinite damage, and then use the ageless watch to cancel the hit and survive.

Again I think you really are downplaying how gamechanging 95% armour is for regular hp characters, even with the night armour sanity downside that other characters get.

Wanda is aimed at making the game easy for those with the knowledge and prep work to take advantage of her upsides. She is working as intended because a new player or casual player can't just pick up Wanda and be OP, she isn't a noob character like Guille says.

12 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

What if the alarming clock was kept as is but she had potentially higher damage from other weapons (like dark swords and thule clubs) when super close to death, like 5 hp away from dying or something? Or what if not wearing any armor could boost the damage of those weapons (while the alarming clock has its role as the safe option with consistent damage)? that way the people who like wanda as is can keep playing her the same way and nothing changes for them, while people like me who find her to a snoozefest can actually engage with real glass cannon mechanics (and without needing to start every world by instantly rushing tier 2 magic)

Guille, honestly, why would klei do this? The majority of people struggle with DST combat as is. And making this mechanic aimed at 0.000005% of the playerbase is a waste of time.

A large reason to play Wanda is having this OP clock weapon that you don't need to replace. Instead of making changes that focus on making the same boring weapons viable for Wanda, klei should create different fun clock weapons with wacky mechanics.

[Jakepeng99]

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

large reason to play Wanda is having this OP clock weapon that you don't need to replace. Instead of making changes that focus on making the same boring weapons viable for Wanda, klei should create different fun clock weapons with wacky mechanics.

Feature bloat is a thing.

its already a thing, but this makes it worse.

 

also, why more combat focus?

Add more weapons for the whole cast to use instead.

[00petar00]

32 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Feature bloat is a thing.

its already a thing, but this makes it worse.

For someone that belives that it is a good reason for klei to declare DST as a finished game and you to not receive any updates anymore.

33 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

also, why more combat focus?

Add more weapons for the whole cast to use instead.

Because players like fighting and there could be years of updates that only focus on bosses and mobs and most players would find it enjoyable.

Most weapons are very generic so it is nice for characters to have unique weapons, you could say that alarming clock or slingshot could be available to everyone but the same can be said about most abilities characters have, so why do we have so many characters when we can have one with everything available?

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Feature bloat is a thing.

its already a thing, but this makes it worse.

Feature bloat in regards to unique character items/weapons is great. Walter has 147939 personal crafts and i use everyone of them that i can. Because the more unique items and abilities a single character has will make that character feel far different from the next. And you want to remove the alarming clock hence removing uniqueness from Wanda....

1 hour ago, Jakepeng99 said:

also, why more combat focus?

Add more weapons for the whole cast to use instead.

You complain about Wanda getting feature bloat but you instead want to feature bloat the entire character roster? 

With the introduction of the shadow maul, nightmare saddle, gloomerrang and howlitzer we have a very rounded out weapon arsenal now that everyone can use. This leaves room for characters like Wanda to get a few more wacky powerful weapons.

We also need the DST version of the living artifact from hamlet, this epic end game OP godmode item to mark the end of the wagstaff vs Charlie arc.

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

With the introduction of the shadow maul, nightmare saddle, gloomerrang and howlitzer we have a very rounded out weapon arsenal now that everyone can use. This leaves room for characters like Wanda to get a few more wacky powerful weapons.

They are only for riffs, and actually end up limiting what they can do with weapons because of planar stuff

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

You complain about Wanda getting feature bloat but you instead want to feature bloat the entire character roster? 

This statement doesnt make mucu sense.

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Feature bloat in regards to unique character items/weapons is great. Walter has 147939 personal crafts and i use everyone of them that i can. Because the more unique items and abilities a single character has will make that character feel far different from the next. And you want to remove the alarming clock hence removing uniqueness from Wanda....

Its not good.

It puts too mucy focus on using your characters kit than thinking about the world's kit.

Its something i dont like about it.

[CrimsonStrider]

22 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

already did, try again

I'm clearly not talking to you, I'm talking to Jakepeng and everyone else.

And I cannot see videos. Is that the Walter no hit run? Was it not clear I was telling people do make their own challenge the way you do? I assumed it was less pressure for you to rejoin the discussion by specifically naming you every post.

You're one of the very few willing to restrict how you play for the sake of a challenge. 

22 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

yeah I'd like to main an interesting character for a change

I disagree that you'd find this interesting long term. Using the incredibly VAGUE way people are using the term glass cannon, you might find a forum reworked Wanda interesting short term and tedious long term.

 

And even if you could enjoy it long term, do you honestly feel it would be something most people could enjoy long term? 

I don't feel like my suggestions were unreasonable at all. Change the way that combat works with Wanda beyond making her HP lower and damage higher.

Give her tools to mitigate or avoid damage, and lock her power behind that. As a random example, X new move successfully done gives X damage boost and negates the hit. Unsuccessfully done, you just take damage or maybe even extra damage. That's a more engaging and rewarding mechanic that also gives experienced players something new to learn.

Then she can be played at a variety of skill levels, while also making combat unique with her compared to the rest of the cast.

 

[Jakepeng99]

3 minutes ago, CrimsonStrider said:

(It bugged and Im stuck in this quote box-Jakepeng99)

I already challenge myself by not using Op farms and characters I find oppressive.

I don’t want to challenge myself by playing crap and using worse items.

its not like using football helmets is more fun or anything, it’s just stats.

[Guille6785]

28 minutes ago, CrimsonStrider said:

I'm clearly not talking to you, I'm talking to Jakepeng and everyone else.

On 5/1/2025 at 1:21 AM, CrimsonStrider said:

I'm very clearly pointing out the hypocrisy of everyone wanting a glass cannon Wanda.

[FillerText]

A lot of people seem to tug at "She has no sanity drain with night armor" solely for the implications instead of applications. It's literally the most inconsequential perk ever, as people used Night armors with Dark Swords just fine long before Wanda ever existed(if anything, it's more of a detriment since Dark Swords are very good for lowering sanity to start farming fuel).

 

Literally nothing would change if you removed that mechanic other than make wanda get 1-2 more Veggie stingers per fight. It doesn't even contribute that much to her sanity sustain during fights, since the actual reason she loses so little is because she is further away from any given monster's sanity aura because of the clock's range. even if you removed that benefit it wouldn't change anything but add slightly more prep-time, or make her use the Bee Queen crown(which she already did use). It's a pointless nerf that just wastes gameplay time on boring grinding when your "Night armor op so Wanda op" playstyle already requires to lot of time, or a rejection of other nightmare fuel resource sinks in order to actually have enough Night armors to NOT be a glass cannon at old age. You are completely cancelling out your high damage benefit by wasting so much time taking precautions, that you are neither saving resources nor time while Mr Wilson with a hambat just destroys 2 touch stone setpieces, and kills 3 bosses without having to craft more than an alchemy engine.

 

There are issues Wanda has. You being able to play the game in a lame way by over-preparing for each boss with 25 night armors, and 12 ageless watches to make her a "failed glass cannon" while expending more resources on raid bosses than a newbie who never fought them before isn't really one of them.

[Walrusst]

an aside is that wanda being critically vulnerable during DOT's cause the watch healing is interrupted by dot's is a geniunely cool mechanic.
Like, as long as fuel efficiency is better for less overwhelming weapons I won't be bothered by the clock simply because spending 1/5th the time grinding for a kill is valuable even if the fight is longer.

 

[GrapeVruit]

A part of me wonders if some of these changes were added to make Wanda a glass cannon, less damage with AC, less hp, more damage with Dark Swords, more damage close to death, etc., would most people accept them with open arms or would they be incredibly upset? Would they even care if she's even a glass cannon?

I mean, she'll finally fit the archetype, but wouldn't she be objectively worse than before? She'll deal insane damage when near death, but other characters can dish out the same, or even more damage than Wanda, all without need to be at risk of dying. 

And within this era of skill trees, where characters get insane buffs with no drawbacks, I feel like these nerfs wouldn't appeal to most players, especially ones that aren't cracked at the game as we are. I feel like these changes could actually cause Wanda to be less played than she is now. 

[Balter]

The reason why Wanda isn't well designed is because she doesn't have a weakness; unlike the other characters she only has a different kind of health bar. She is a perk soup with a "time theme" branded onto (even though none of her skills is about time)

[00petar00]

2 hours ago, Balter said:

The reason why Wanda isn't well designed is because she doesn't have a weakness; unlike the other characters she only has a different kind of health bar. She is a perk soup with a "time theme" branded onto (even though none of her skills is about time)

Somehow other characters are well designed, especially Walter but Wanda isn't? Walter seems to be one of the worst balance decisions developers made because of the slingshot and it got so many upgrades and a big focus with skill tree.

[Bumber64]

7 hours ago, Balter said:

The reason why Wanda isn't well designed is because she doesn't have a weakness; unlike the other characters she only has a different kind of health bar. She is a perk soup with a "time theme" branded onto (even though none of her skills is about time)

Wanda is constantly poisoned. That's as much a weakness as anyone else gets.

And like most others, her upsides go beyond countering that.

[GrapeVruit]

8 hours ago, Balter said:

The reason why Wanda isn't well designed is because she doesn't have a weakness; unlike the other characters she only has a different kind of health bar. She is a perk soup with a "time theme" branded onto (even though none of her skills is about time)

What are you saying? A lot of her kit deals with time. She slowly ages overtime, eventually dying for being too old, has a watch that sends back a certain distance in time, one that revives allys back to the place they died, heck, the watch that she uses to heal reverses her age to a younger state IN TIME. 

She's also got weakness too. Unlike the rest of the cast, she can't heal from anything that isn't her ageless watch, which means she misses out on great burst healing items such as pierogi, honey ham, or dragon pie.

While the watches can be used indefinitely, each one goes on a 2 minute cooldown, and if you happen to get hit or take DOT while healing, that healing gets canceled, meaning you need to wait 2 more minutes for your next heal, whereas other characters can just heal whenever they want.

And while take armor can make survive tanky in old age, you have to sacrifice extra inventory slots from backpacks in order to use it, which means less space to hold your watches and even extra armors with you. Also, come the rifts, planar mobs will just shred through your armor, making it mandatory to use rift gear, which has 80% DR instead of 95%. While she's a pretty strong character, she's not this Wolfgang level beast whose all upsides with no downsides.