Hot take: Wanda would be better designed, more fun and more interesting if the Alarming clock was removed (+Wanda mini rework)

[Cruvimaster]

13 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Those rules will be: They deal INSANE Damage, but they have the intentionally lowest health of every character in the game making them ironically also the easiest character to kill as THE Risk Vs Reward character.

 

Speaking of insane damage... what is the damage per second of Wanda vs Wolfgang vs Wigfrid (all of them with the best weapons possible)?

There's a lot of talk about being more glass, but there's never any talk about having the highest DPS in the game.

 

[00petar00]

55 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

yes, and this is what 35 hp gets you:

35 HP is best case scenario and armor was always broken. Deerclops is one of the weakest bosses unless you count treeguards, try doing the same with post rift mobs and bosses.

55 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

nobody wants wanda to be weak, we just want her to be what she was advertised to be

That ship has sailed as she wasn't changed much at all post release besides making second chance watch not permanent and stun locking changes to the game, I don't think players would accept chances now 4 years later especially since so many other characters were made much more powerful.

This character is also a paid DLC that could be bought with spools but not everyone did that so it makes it even less likely to change her in a way that would negatively affect players that paid money.

32 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I play this mobile game and to give you a rough idea of what a glass canon is- most characters have 12 or more bars of health, the glass canon however has 3 bars of health.

A glass canon is usually defined as an intentionally weak character who grows stronger over time, strength would be distributed based on how much damage they can dish out and how fast they can dish out that damage: But there are certain Rules to being a Glass Canon that do not currently apply to Wanda.

Those rules will be: They deal INSANE Damage, but they have the intentionally lowest health of every character in the game making them ironically also the easiest character to kill as THE Risk Vs Reward character.

A Glass Canon is often restricted by what types of armors they can wear, what kind of weapons they can equip etc..

Wanda however: can craft 3 ageless watches and ignore she has any downsides.

Wanda is at strongest at 15-35 HP and has to stay within that range so it fits your rule on health. Wanda already does a lot of damage and only becomes weaker post rift because her clock doesn't have planar damage.

Armor makes her not a traditional glass cannon character but she is the closest you get to it in DST. I don't think you have tried fighting post rift mobs with Wanda as it may be what you want to see.

[lowercase skye]

40 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I play this mobile game and to give you a rough idea of what a glass canon is- most characters have 12 or more bars of health, the glass canon however has 3 bars of health.

A glass canon is usually defined as an intentionally weak character who grows stronger over time, strength would be distributed based on how much damage they can dish out and how fast they can dish out that damage: But there are certain Rules to being a Glass Canon that do not currently apply to Wanda.

Those rules will be: They deal INSANE Damage, but they have the intentionally lowest health of every character in the game making them ironically also the easiest character to kill as THE Risk Vs Reward character.

A Glass Canon is often restricted by what types of armors they can wear, what kind of weapons they can equip etc..

Most of these attributes are unnecessary and not at all required for the definition of a glass cannon. It's as simple as a character that has exceptionally high damage but very low health.

[hyoton123]

I do think a glass cannon needs to not just be fragile, but cant have easy tools to mitigate that risk. Backstep watch is consistent with that. Alarming clock is….kind of consistent, I guess since it encourages animation cancelling, but the extra range is ridiculous. Her “healing” is basically the opposite. Her max health being standard is extremely the opposite. (actually, dumb question because i dont play wanda: if you keep wanda young/middle, what is her drawback? am i right that it’s the constant “health” drain?)

[Edible Coal]

what if old wanda heals much slower? like 100% slower

[00petar00]

11 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

I do think a glass cannon needs to not just be fragile, but cant have easy tools to mitigate that risk. Backstep watch is consistent with that. Alarming clock is….kind of consistent, I guess since it encourages animation cancelling, but the extra range is ridiculous. Her “healing” is basically the opposite. Her max health being standard is extremely the opposite. (actually, dumb question because i dont play wanda: if you keep wanda young/middle, what is her drawback? am i right that it’s the constant “health” drain?)

Her healing that so many like to bring up is quite limited by ageless watches and dare I say a downside. At least with my playstyle I'd prefer healing with food since it takes less inventory space and isn't limited in the early game.

Most players don't like downsides that can't be countered and the game has evolved to be much less about survival and more about boss fights and overall much easier to get into with skill trees, at one point Wanda and Maxwell were the obvious strongest characters, now it isn't as obvious with Wanda anymore unless you play her for teleportation like me but I do like her damage too.

I always stay in old age after I craft alarming clock which is within first few game days but I do agree that middle age might be a bit too forgiving, what's wrong with that though? Not everyone has 1-10k hours of playtime, Wanda isn't easy for newer players that try to stay in old age all the time to get the benefit that everyone keeps saying makes her too powerful because of her damage when Maxwell, Wolfgang Wendy can do the same without any risk and all they lack is teleportation.

[Mike23Ua]

2 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Her healing that so many like to bring up is limited by ageless watches and it is a negative or dare I say downside. At least with my playstyle I'd prefer healing with food since it takes less inventory space and isn't limited in the early game.

Most players don't like downsides that can't be countered and the game has evolved to be much less about survival and more about boss fights and overall much easier to get into with skill trees, at one point Wanda and Maxwell were the obvious strongest characters, now Wanda isn't anymore unless you play her for teleportation like me but I do like her damage too.

I always stay in old age after I craft alarming clock which is within first few days of autumn but I do agree that middle age might be a bit too forgiving, what's wrong with that though? Not everyone has 1-10k hours of playtime, Wanda isn't easy for newer players that try to stay in old age all the time.

Different things appeal to different types of players. Wanda’s Ageless Clock (if it could not be stacked by crafting multiple) works like the Healing Syringe Cooldown Timer in Killing Floor 2 (unsure about KF3)

After a certain Cooldown, you’re free to heal again. 
 

however: Even killing Floor 2 which uses this same kind of Heal on a cooldown timer mechanic, also has classes with lower max overall health.

Conclusion: Wanda needs lower health.

[00petar00]

6 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Different things appeal to different types of players. Wanda’s Ageless Clock (if it could not be stacked by crafting multiple) works like the Healing Syringe Cooldown Timer in Killing Floor 2 (unsure about KF3)

After a certain Cooldown, you’re free to heal again. 
 

however: Even killing Floor 2 which uses this same kind of Heal on a cooldown timer mechanic, also has classes with lower max overall health.

Conclusion: Wanda needs lower health.

That would punish players that try to get the most benefit with her damage, I don't see why not stay middle aged If there's a cooldown. You do realize that most players chow down healing food for a long time while fighting bosses until they become good enough to not need as much? Wanda's ageless watch gives 20 health when most foods players see as meta give more like pierogi giving double, honey ham gives 30 while jellybeans give a whopping 122 health.

Food healing is so much superior to ageless watches that its hard for me to grasp how people see it as free healing. The only issue is that as Wanda you lose health over time so it is intentional design choice to be able to restore health easier in the early game but you lose out on late game healing potential.

Wanda is at 15-35 health all the time in old age to get the biggest benefit so I don't think she needs lower health but probably needs buffs to planar defense post rift. Armor has always been broken in DST and it was stackable in DS, stats don't mean much but still 15-35 health is much different from 150 and you need to heal much more often or as Wanda need to clutter inventory with ageless watches. I can kill most bosses with 2 that I carry at all times anyway but I don't think that this is the case for most people.

[CrimsonStrider]

Young: No modifiers , backstep max range. 

Middle: 1.2 shadow dmg, 0.5 staff sanity drain, 0.3333 sanity drain from shadow eq, medium backstep distance.

Old: 1.75 shadow dmg and 0.75 physical dmg. Reduce work efficiency and crafting speed. 0.25 staff sanity drain. No sanity loss from shadow eq.

Ageless Watch 

lt's nice, free healing day 1, but it just allows a Wanda player to skip the cooking aspect of the game. I don't enjoy prepping healing food. It's boring for me. Butterfly wings exist for other characters.

The "OP" nature is that it's always on hand. You're never without healing and it never spoils. But you can also just as easily never leave base without food. I can't remember the last time I've died as another character because I ran out of healing food, other than me being careless day 1 near tallbirds.

During actual combat is when the drawbacks are obvious. Early on its fine. If you wanted to, you could tank a few hounds then heal. Later, you can't do that, because you'd get stuck being unable to heal.

You cannot heal while being attacked or through fire, starvation, freezing, or overheating. This is pretty important.

The one cool thing is you can technically survive a lethal attack if you're fast enough, but I play console so that's not a thing to rely on. You also don't really have time to react at certain ages.

[WilsonHiggs]

7 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Just because it was advertised as a glass cannon it doesn't mean that she will ever be one hit away from death but in truth she is much more of a glass cannon compared to other characters. You have to be at 35 HP and often go as low as 15 because ageless watch will heal above old age and players don't want to lose damage.

She will never be what you are asking because it has been years and many players that main her don't want a nerf, we play Wanda because we enjoy strong characters. If you want to play a weak character there is option for that, that's how the game was before refreshes and reworks started. 

Wendy isn't a glass cannon at all, it would be a good idea if you could share your definition on glass cannon.

Alarming clock isn't getting removed and Wanda won't be weaker so there's not much point in discussing this. The game was massively changed for better or worse because of alarming clock and it has been in the game for like 4 years.

the same way you want even easier content, there are a bunch of people who wants content appropriate to veterans, atleast one fun character. And klei can always balance according to what the design they had in mind aimed

[Johnny_Waffles]

8 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

By this logic, an elderly Wanda (65) would have 15 hp, and she would have to heal at age 73.

Basically, Wanda would be a "no damage" character.

We know that DST players love difficulty and that's why Wes is the most used character on the servers (irony).

They asked for glass cannon, what's more glass cannon than always being 8hp. your literally a twig. Also when old give her dementia. Also when old give her dementia.

[00petar00]

18 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

the same way you want even easier content, there are a bunch of people who wants content appropriate to veterans, atleast one fun character. And klei can always balance according to what the design they had in mind aimed

Majority of the players are casuals unless it is a specific game that isn't nearly as popular that focuses on difficulty and won't be mainstream. DST has been going in this direction for so many years that a lot of players that have had a specific expectation of game suddenly becoming more difficult have either stopped playing or adapted.

Look at skill trees and character refreshes, stone fruit and banana bushes they are so good, trees grow gems, enlightened crown that gives infinite light and sanity, rift gear that is easily repairable and has a lot of utility, flares that let you summon deerclops at your convenience. I can literally go on and on about how DST is becoming easier with each update. I don't think I can name you a specific update that made the game more difficult without overcompensating players for it.

[WilsonHiggs]

20 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Majority of the players are casuals unless it is a specific game that isn't nearly as popular that focuses on difficulty and won't be mainstream. DST has been going in this direction for so many years that a lot of players that have had a specific expectation of game suddenly becoming more difficult have either stopped playing or adapted.

Look at skill trees and character refreshes, stone fruit and banana bushes they are so good, trees grow gems, enlightened crown that gives infinite light and sanity, rift gear that is easily repairable and has a lot of utility, flares that let you summon deerclops at your convenience. I can literally go on and on about how DST is becoming easier with each update. I don't think I can name you a specific update that made the game more difficult without overcompensating players for it.

Agree. Money ruins art

[00petar00]

25 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

Agree. Money ruins art

So If you agree why are you bringing up about how a lot of players want harder content? People that want harder content are a minority and most of them are gathered on the forums and yet still they only get at most 50% of votes here where the most dedicated players are. Majority of the players will never go to the forums or participate in any discussion about the game on any social media.

When you mentioned at least one fun character, If you find harder content fun how is Wes not it? It is still possible to advocate to make Wes more difficult but Wanda isn't going to go from one of the strongest characters to something like Wes. I am not saying that he is hard, he is only punishing but that is up to the players to bring up.

[WilsonHiggs]

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

So If you agree why are you bringing up about how a lot of players want harder content? People that want harder content are a minority and most of them are gathered on the forums and yet still they only get at most 50% of votes here where the most dedicated players are. Majority of the players will never go to the forums or participate in any discussion about the game on any social media.

When you mentioned at least one fun character, If you find harder content fun how is Wes not it? It is still possible to advocate to make Wes more difficult but Wanda isn't going to go from one of the strongest characters to something like Wes. I am not saying that he is hard, he is only punishing but that is up to the players to bring up.

Nobody is asking to nerf Wanda to Wes levels. Keep trying

Also I don't see what is the problem of asking in a FORUM to balance a, supposedly, glass canon according to the goal of said character despite whatever casual route is taking the game, a game that was never advertise as a casual life sim game but which was an unique survival which is falling in a rabbit hole of bad decisions to grab more players to sell skins by turning this game into a monster hunter with dumb proof combat and forgiving and uninteresting mechanics

[CrimsonStrider]

7 hours ago, WilsonHiggs said:

I don't see what is the problem of asking in a FORUM to balance a, supposedly, glass canon according to the goal of said character

I don't see what the problem is of limiting yourself to 1 or 2 watches, log suits and football helmets, and aiming to stay old (give yourself some leeway to be slightly under 65) 

Antlion will 2 hit you under those circumstances.

Up the ante and don't use the alarming clock.

 

[WilsonHiggs]

5 minutes ago, CrimsonStrider said:

I don't see what the problem is of limiting yourself to 1 or 2 watches, log suits and football helmets, and aiming to stay old (give yourself some leeway to be slightly under 65) 

Antlion will 2 hit you under those circumstances.

Up the ante and don't use the alarming clock.

 

There can't be a discussion if you think that not interacting with content to enjoy the game is a good idea or should be aceptable. The same way I can tell you to play other game if you want a casual experience 

[Jakepeng99]

6 minutes ago, CrimsonStrider said:

I don't see what the problem is of limiting yourself to 1 or 2 watches, log suits and football helmets, and aiming to stay old (give yourself some leeway to be slightly under 65) 

Antlion will 2 hit you under those circumstances.

Up the ante and don't use the alarming clock.

 

. If you play Wolfgang with no armour, antlion will also kill you in a few hits under these circumstances, making him a glass cannon.

 

Stop using this as an argument.

This is really unconstructive.

[hyoton123]

39 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

. If you play Wolfgang with no armour, antlion will also kill you in a few hits under these circumstances, making him a glass cannon.

Wolfglass…

[Gashzer]

Wanda is a glass cannon. Are you all mad?

Let the maths prove it;

If Wanda wants to compete with wolfgang dps she needs to stay at >65 age.

This is effectively 37.5hp which is very low. Using 95% armour like night or marble suit this makes her hp effectively 750hp meaning it takes 10 hits for dragonfly to kill Wanda with night armour. This doesn't seem very glass cannon until......

Wolfgang has 200hp using 95% armour that becomes a whopping 4000hp meaning wolfgang needs to take an insane 54 hits from dragonfly to die. 

This is a massive 3250 hp difference meaning Wanda needs to use her ageless watch 8 times during a fight to match wolfgangs hp....

How is Wanda not a glass cannon? Wolfgang can literally take 40 hits from dragonfly without even needing to think about healing.... as long as you have the armour supply to take the hits.

 

[WilsonHiggs]

3 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Wanda is a glass cannon. Are you all mad?

Let the maths prove it;

If Wanda wants to compete with wolfgang dps she needs to stay at >65 age.

This is effectively 37.5hp which is very low. Using 95% armour like night or marble suit this makes her hp effectively 750hp meaning it takes 10 hits for dragonfly to kill Wanda with night armour. This doesn't seem very glass cannon until......

Wolfgang has 200hp using 95% armour that becomes a whopping 4000hp meaning wolfgang needs to take an insane 54 hits from dragonfly to die. 

This is a massive 3250 hp difference meaning Wanda needs to use her ageless watch 8 times during a fight to match wolfgangs hp....

How is Wanda not a glass cannon? Wolfgang can literally take 40 hits from dragonfly without even needing to think about healing.... as long as you have the armour supply to take the hits.

 

Even if she has less hp doesn't mean she is so tanky to be considered a glass canon.

Also, how exactly do you get hit if the enemy can't reach you?

[Gashzer]

12 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

Even if she has less hp doesn't mean she is so tanky to be considered a glass canon.

Also, how exactly do you get hit if the enemy can't reach you?

Dragonfly can reach you, the mobs that matter can reach you. 

The glass cannon part of Wanda is really apparent when you take freezing or overheating/fire damage.

Having 1/4 of the max standard 150hp to do max damage is extremely glass cannon. ...

The entire reason of using 90% or 95% armour is so you barely need to worry about juggling healing during a boss fight even if you get hit loads. Having less to worry about makes combat 1000x easier.

Wanda with 95% armour needs to worry about healing after the same amount of hits as a Wilson needs to when wearing 80% football helmets... Wilson has effectively 750hp with a football helmet.. the exact same as Old Wanda when she is using the strongest armour in the game... 

You see the way all this maths add up? Klei knows what they are doing... 70% of the time atleast 

Thank god the veterans/speedrunners of DST don't design games for a living because you guys would be terrible at it.

[Cruvimaster]

29 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

Also, how exactly do you get hit if the enemy can't reach you?

Have you ever played Wanda against Dragonfly and without using walls? Clearly you've never done that fight based on your comment.

[Wawchik]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Dragonfly can reach you, the mobs that matter can reach you. 

The glass cannon part of Wanda is really apparent when you take freezing or overheating/fire damage.

Having 1/4 of the max standard 150hp to do max damage is extremely glass cannon. ...

The entire reason of using 90% or 95% armour is so you barely need to worry about juggling healing during a boss fight even if you get hit loads. Having less to worry about makes combat 1000x easier.

Wanda with 95% armour needs to worry about healing after the same amount of hits as a Wilson needs to when wearing 80% football helmets... Wilson has effectively 750hp with a football helmet.. the exact same as Old Wanda when she is using the strongest armour in the game... 

You see the way all this maths add up? Klei knows what they are doing... 70% of the time atleast 

Thank god the veterans/speedrunners of DST don't design games for a living because you guys would be terrible at it.

so Wilson with football helmet is just glass? You know 750 is still a lot and you can cancel dmg by healing right after getting hit 

Quote

The glass cannon part of Wanda is really apparent when you take freezing or overheating/fire damage

How often do you take freezing or fire damage? Freezing in like 1 fight and fire in like 2 fights total only if you let d fly enrage or not build a wall

1 minute ago, Cruvimaster said:

Have you ever played Wanda against Dragonfly and without using walls? Clearly you've never done that fight based on your comment.

Can't you just kill lavae before they even attack as Wanda tho? 

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, Wawchik said:

so Wilson with football helmet is just glass? You know 750 is still a lot and you can cancel dmg by healing right after getting hit 

Yeah ofc he is. Every character is glass with a football helmet... its the starter armour of the game. Its not normal to bring 10 football helmets and 40 pierogis to a boss fight.

Instead, you should be aiming to bring marble suits/thulecite crowns to boss fights to reduce the need to think about/needing to bring as many healing items.

The glass part of old Wanda is; yes i can end this fight faster than Wilson but ill need to always think about healing. I can't just tank a load of hits for 2mins straight, heal back to full 150hp and continue tanking. Also i need to be extra careful of temperature damage that can nullify my heals. 

Needing to think = glass cannon.

Wilson with a hambat, 2 marble suits and 4 football helmets I can comfortably kill dragonfly everytime without needing to use a single healing item when using wall cheese. Without using any brain power whatsoever.

I can definitely kill dfly far faster as Old Wanda using the same wall cheese but I always need to double-check my health if I happen to get hit and you know the rule! If you need to think... means she's a glass cannon!