[Poll] Should Wes skilltree buff him to (try to) balance with other character?

[WilsonHiggs]

Wes was added to the game for a reason. Everything that goes against that original design would be awful. We have plenty of casual characters,  no need to make them all the same

[Cheggf]

15 minutes ago, Pruinae said:

Is not that he isn't popular, is that he is basically not played at all, it goes beyond popularity.

I could instead just not ever say anything and just leave Wes to be forgotten like he always has been, but the forum provides opportunity to say what I would personally prefer, so why not? That generates discussion that might provide the developers an idea of what should be done, be it with people agreeing or disagreeing with me. There's no need to be harsh.

Wes is unpopular because he is the only character who's intended to make the game harder instead of easier, and most people struggle even as the easy characters. He is inherently designed to be "basically not played at all" by the current demographic that likes this game. 

[Well-met]

there's just no way a skill tree of downsides will ever pass the beta. Not with this userbase.

[YouKnowWho142]

Realistically it’d require a basekit change. If you wanted Wes to be on level with other character basically most of his downsides would need to be removed in his skill tree, and that is a direction I dislike even with the skill trees we currently have (to be clear, there is a difference between toning them down and removing them outright). Even then, if people wanted Wes to be on the level of other characters, all the skills he could possibly have would go against all his downsides and all it would do is make him mediocre at best. I’d rather them spec into what he’s supposed to be than try to make him into something he’s not

[Guihhza]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wilson has feature bloat, Wes does not..

Please define Bloat... I don't see it, I think its a very underwhelming skill tree actually.

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

But WILSON (now with fancy confusing Skill tree)

Confusing where, exactly? I feel as though everything in there is very self explanatory...

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

has some features that the player has to figure out and learn, such as: What the actual Hell the ingredients needed to “Transmutate” items are

Having to figure out what ingredients are needed to transmutate items....???

As in opening Wilson's crafting tab and looking at the crafts? what

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

and what those transmutated items will be used for.

Having to learn what items are used for is not a Wilson issue.

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

To play Wilson demands the newbie to learn how to sacrifice one inventory slot to constantly shave off beard scruff.

Saying players need to sacrifice a slot is very hiperbolic. It's only a problem during a single season and stage 1 gives 15 seconds of insulation which is barely anything. You can leave your razor in the base and then go out for 8 whole days before the insulation starts to become a noticeable problem.

Also, saying Wes is a better starting character is... I don't know where to begin honestly.

[Picklesaurus]

I hope it is fun so that I can enjoy playing him, I like his personality and appearance but he feels quite boring and unremarkable to play right now. I would like him to feel like he is his own thing even if it is not as strong as others. 

[YouKnowWho142]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wilson has feature bloat, Wes does not..

The only thing that Wes can’t do (assuming your a new player who picked the game up yesterday) the only thing Complicated about playing Wes for a new player- Is when they Die and misplace their Balloons and can not figure out how to craft a new pile of balloons.

But WILSON (now with fancy confusing Skill tree) has some features that the player has to figure out and learn, such as: What the actual Hell the ingredients needed to “Transmutate” items are, and what those transmutated items will be used for.

On top of THAT a Newer player also randomly grows out a long Castaway style beard which the brand new to the game player: Will at first benefit from (for Winter) and then later Burn to death for not knowing how to shave off (for Summer)

To play Wilson demands the newbie to learn how to sacrifice one inventory slot to constantly shave off beard scruff.

Wes is literally the only character in the entire game, who currently… has no extra Features bloat. Even Wilson & Willow now are more complicated for brand new beginner players.

… every character has exclusive items they need to keep in their inventory now. Characters like wortox sacrifice up to five slots, and Wilson doesn’t even need to keep a razor for 3 of the 4 seasons. Wes’ balloons each have a niche and overly specific purpose and can be argued is significantly more complicated than anything you just said about Wilson.

[Chewabacca]

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

Wes is unpopular because he is the only character who's intended to make the game harder instead of easier, and most people struggle even as the easy characters. He is inherently designed to be "basically not played at all" by the current demographic that likes this game. 

Maybe, but I think it's also because there's something of a bell curve with Wes. Players who are struggling with the game look at the guy with the warning signs plastered all over him and don't pick him, which is fine, that's what the warning signs are for. But a decent chunk of players who have gotten to the point where they're comfortable with the game pick up Wes and go "this isn't an interesting challenge, this is just slower", and that's a bigger problem.
Pruinae's linked post has a bunch of neat ideas for Wes downsides that a determined player could eke out something positive from, which is probably the way to go. Was thinking it over, and it might also be interesting to give Wes a choice of common ways to replenish stats to give up. The idea is that one skill could stop Wes from gaining sanity from clothing, while a different one could stop him from gaining sanity from food. Wes could not gain hunger from crockpot dishes, or he could only gain hunger from crockpot food. He could be unable to use healing items, or he could be unable to benefit from healing food. You wouldn't have to pick them all, but you would have to pick one of each.

[gaymime]

6 hours ago, Chewabacca said:

For the same reason they pick Wes in the first place.

which is to say they don't.

41 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

Maybe, but I think it's also because there's something of a bell curve with Wes. Players who are struggling with the game look at the guy with the warning signs plastered all over him and don't pick him, which is fine, that's what the warning signs are for. But a decent chunk of players who have gotten to the point where they're comfortable with the game pick up Wes and go "this isn't an interesting challenge, this is just slower", and that's a bigger problem.

on the forum people say that but i have seen no less than a dozen people who are skilled pick him up in a stream then at the end are struggling and refuse to play him again for being too hard. he only seems to be "boring" to people who have pre-decided to not play him at all and like one really annoying guy who has a personal problem with klei and decided to take it out on wes in particular....that guy is an outlier and should not be counted. in other places outside of klei "boring" isn't the word people use for him

[AliceShiki]

7 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

We both know giving a character the less than Wilson parameters don't actually make the game harder.

Of course having less HP and less damage output makes the game harder, what are you talking about?

Taking more time to gather ingredients also makes your life harder as you'll essentially have less time to prepare for your first winter.

Sure, if you're good enough to solo all bosses in the game with ease, then the downsides don't really matter, but that's just you being too good at the game, not Wes not making the game harder. You simply overcame his extra challenge by being too good of a player for it to matter... But most players aren't that good, so they'll struggle with dealing 0.75x damage and having less HP.

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wilson has feature bloat, Wes does not..

The only thing that Wes can’t do (assuming your a new player who picked the game up yesterday) the only thing Complicated about playing Wes for a new player- Is when they Die and misplace their Balloons and can not figure out how to craft a new pile of balloons.

But WILSON (now with fancy confusing Skill tree) has some features that the player has to figure out and learn, such as: What the actual Hell the ingredients needed to “Transmutate” items are, and what those transmutated items will be used for.

Just tell your friend to get the Torch Tree and Beard Tree and they're basically done. They can figure out if they care about transmutations later on when they're used to the game.

Wilson has the simplest and most straight-forward skills in the game. There is 0 feature bloat there, this is just bad faith arguing.

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Burn to death for not knowing how to shave off (for Summer)

By the time they can survive until Summer, they won't really have to worry about the character being too complex because they already know how to play the game, let's be real.

Not to mention that the way insulation works is connected to the ambient temperature IIRC, so Winter Insulation isn't even a demerit during Summer IIRC.

[hyoton123]

He needs to get worse.

[WilsonHiggs]

9 hours ago, Well-met said:

there's just no way a skill tree of downsides will ever pass the beta. Not with this userbase.

Just see how some are suggesting to buff him to be as good as the rest of the cast...

Next suggestion would be to make every character as strong and safe as wolfgang because apparently we cant have variety

[EerieEra]

Have his skill tree be two-sided,
One side expanding on the challenge of the game and his origins as an unlucky mime unlikely to survive. Barely-if-helpful joke perks, perks that give drawbacks for any boons.
The other side giving him improvements and whimsy of an upgraded mime. Expanding his pantomiming and balloonomancy.

[Cheggf]

19 minutes ago, EerieEra said:

Have his skill tree be two-sided,
One side expanding on the challenge of the game and his origins as an unlucky mime unlikely to survive. Barely-if-helpful joke perks, perks that give drawbacks for any boons.
The other side giving him improvements and whimsy of an upgraded mime. Expanding his pantomiming and balloonomancy.

You can inspect other players' skill trees so weirdos would kick you if you pick bad side perks since they think you're a griefer/troll/idfk (despite the fact that 99% of people picking bad side perks are going to be 5,000x more helpful than people picking good side perks).

[wormwood123]

On 3/14/2025 at 10:27 PM, Mike23Ua said:

 

But WILSON (now with fancy confusing Skill tree) has some features that the player has to figure out and learn, such as: What the actual Hell the ingredients needed to “Transmutate” items are, and what those transmutated items will be used for.

Wilson's skill tree is so easy to understand. torch last longer, torch lights up more area. beard makes me warmer, beard grows faster. And for the transmutation skills most people realise that they have to learn the game so they'll just sum it up to "guess I should play a bit more and explore" if they don't know the ingredient or the item. also by this logic all the craftable stuff in the game shouldn't exist because I know i didn't know what a prestihatitator was for when I first started for example. If any thing Wilson's skill tree incentivises exploring to discover all these features which newer players wouldn't know about... besides newer players don't even play Wilson all that much its usually Webber or Wendy.

[EerieEra]

22 hours ago, Cheggf said:

You can inspect other players' skill trees so weirdos would kick you if you pick bad side perks since they think you're a griefer/troll/idfk (despite the fact that 99% of people picking bad side perks are going to be 5,000x more helpful than people picking good side perks).

This is presuming a lot - that the playerbase doesn't know about or comprehend the challenge aspect of that skill tree side, that the perks can be used for griefing/trolling, that griefers would choose this method enough to make it a trend, and that without fail in a rando server they'll kick before seeing how someone plays.
Not to mention how this wouldn't be an issue for communicating friends and communities. Or a server with chat.
Could even put in server description "no challengeplay" or "hardmode Wes' welcome".
 

[Cheggf]

4 minutes ago, EerieEra said:

This is presuming a lot - that the playerbase doesn't know about or comprehend the challenge aspect of that skill tree side, that the perks can be used for griefing/trolling, that griefers would choose this method enough to make it a trend, and that without fail in a rando server they'll kick before seeing how someone plays.
Not to mention how this wouldn't be an issue for communicating friends and communities. Or a server with chat.
Could even put in server description "no challengeplay" or "hardmode Wes' welcome".

I don't think you've ever played Wes on a public server before. This is not presuming anything. 

[GamePlayer42]

On 3/17/2025 at 9:37 AM, Cheggf said:

You can inspect other players' skill trees so weirdos would kick you if you pick bad side perks since they think you're a griefer/troll/idfk (despite the fact that 99% of people picking bad side perks are going to be 5,000x more helpful than people picking good side perks).

if the bad side perks directly affect wes rather than the server or others this point becomes moot. and generally you wont usually get kicked from servers for playing certain characters unless your actively detrimenting the people you play with

 

 

On 3/14/2025 at 10:45 PM, WilsonHiggs said:

Wes was added to the game for a reason. Everything that goes against that original design would be awful. We have plenty of casual characters,  no need to make them all the same

i dont think anyone in this thread is campaigning for wes to be casual, infact most people in this thread do not mind that wes is a challenge character, they just think that the challenge part of his character should come with more interesting factors to it, rather than increasing the tedium of the game. At the moment he is a tedious, not hard, character and this needs to be changed in his skill tree imo

 

[Cheggf]

5 minutes ago, GamePlayer42 said:

if the bad side perks directly affect wes rather than the server or others this point becomes moot. and generally you wont usually get kicked from servers for playing certain characters unless your actively detrimenting the people you play with

I don't think you play Wes on public servers very often. 

[GamePlayer42]

2 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

I don't think you play Wes on public servers very often. 

ok? i still rarely ever see people getting banned for character choice ever nowadays.
gonna play wes exclusively for a few days and come back to you on this

[WilsonHiggs]

2 hours ago, GamePlayer42 said:

if the bad side perks directly affect wes rather than the server or others this point becomes moot. and generally you wont usually get kicked from servers for playing certain characters unless your actively detrimenting the people you play with

 

 

i dont think anyone in this thread is campaigning for wes to be casual, infact most people in this thread do not mind that wes is a challenge character, they just think that the challenge part of his character should come with more interesting factors to it, rather than increasing the tedium of the game. At the moment he is a tedious, not hard, character and this needs to be changed in his skill tree imo

 

Poll] Should Wes skilltree buff him to (try to) balance with other character?

[gaymime]

5 hours ago, EerieEra said:

This is presuming a lot - that the playerbase doesn't know about or comprehend the challenge aspect of that skill tree side, that the perks can be used for griefing/trolling, that griefers would choose this method enough to make it a trend, and that without fail in a rando server they'll kick before seeing how someone plays.
Not to mention how this wouldn't be an issue for communicating friends and communities. Or a server with chat.
Could even put in server description "no challengeplay" or "hardmode Wes' welcome".
 

there are already plenty of servers that presuppose certain characters(not players) are unacceptable for use and either ban them with autobanners or kick them manually at spawn(luckily it happens less on endless servers which are the ones i prefer). it isnt as prolific as it used to be but it does still happen. generally i straight up ask if i am allowed to pick my character or play wes specifically before i touch the character picker

[GamePlayer42]

23 hours ago, WilsonHiggs said:

Poll] Should Wes skilltree buff him to (try to) balance with other character?

id still read the responses of the thread mate