Fuelweaver ... wtf

[Guille6785]

15 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

I really despise animation cancelling. It's very obviously unintended behavior, only existing as a consequence of Klei letting you move away after an attack so you are able to dodge and not locked into animations. It's fine for glitched speedruns, but it's abusing a glitch that borders on cheating for me, and it should never be considered in any balance discussion. There is nothing fun or logical about swapping your helmet every half second each fight.

silence, gashzer alt

[_mylilsunshine_]

idk how people are saying anim cancel is a "glitch"/"unintended behaviour" that's being "abused" when animation canceling might as well have existed since the dawn of gaming and is present in a majority of games. there will always be redundancy in animation and people will always find a way to skip/cancel it.

do you know what is a glitch/unintended behaviour? blocking entities with fleshy bulb plants and void walking, both of which have been patched out of the game.

i don't anim cancel and i don't intend to. i defeated all bosses without anim cancel and i don't think it's necessary for anything at all. yet i don't call it "cheating" or whatever. if people want to optimize their gameplay, more power to them. doesn't make me a bum or a casual for not using an "advanced tech." calling it "cheating" feels salty.

and i don't think i've ever seen anyone taking anim cancel into balance consideration. advising people to do more damage? sure people will recommend learning anim cancel. balancing combat around the fact that anim cancel exists? can't seem to find anyone who has said anything remotely close to it. if you do find these people, provide evidence so we can all have a healthy discussion instead of pointing fingers.

[Guille6785]

22 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

idk how people are saying anim cancel is a "glitch"/"unintended behaviour" that's being "abused" when animation canceling might as well have existed since the dawn of gaming and is present in a majority of games. there will always be redundancy in animation and people will always find a way to skip/cancel it.

do you know what is a glitch/unintended behaviour? blocking entities with fleshy bulb plants and void walking, both of which have been patched out of the game.

i don't anim cancel and i don't intend to. i defeated all bosses without anim cancel and i don't think it's necessary for anything at all. yet i don't call it "cheating" or whatever. if people want to optimize their gameplay, more power to them. doesn't make me a bum or a casual for not using an "advanced tech." calling it "cheating" feels salty.

and i don't think i've ever seen anyone taking anim cancel into balance consideration. advising people to do more damage? sure people will recommend learning anim cancel. balancing combat around the fact that anim cancel exists? can't seem to find anyone who has said anything remotely close to it. if you do find these people, provide evidence so we can all have a healthy discussion instead of pointing fingers.

this is kind of derailing the thread a bit and I don't want to feed the trolls any more than I have to but no, animation cancelling is objectively not unintended nor a glitch, the developers have specifically addressed it, balanced it and unambiguously stated (after a patch) that deliberate animation cancelling has been permitted by them to result in a faster attack speed:

I've pointed this out in multiple threads before and all I get in return every single time are mountains of copium and hissing from the same 3 people who physically cannot shut up about their hatred of speedrunning, animation cancelling, bone cage dodging and whatever it is that they're jealous they can't do (the last time I pointed this out someone even tried to unironically argue with me that if a specific interaction wasn't deliberately added from the ground up from the very beginning to be a concrete gameplay mechanic it is by definition a bug, and always will be a bug, even if the developers specifically acknowledge it as intended later on???)

[_mylilsunshine_]

5 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

I've pointed this out in multiple threads before and all I get in return every single time are mountains of copium and hissing from the same 3 people who physically cannot shut up about their hatred of speedrunning, animation cancelling, bone cage dodging and whatever it is that they're jealous they can't do

when i first saw @Ameslarii perform the bone cage dodge, the lead-FW-into-a-corner-to-stop-him-from-eating tech, the being-mind-controlled-to-keep-doing-DPS tech, etc. i was mesmerized and i tried to replicate it in my game, with no consistent success after at least 20-30 tries for each tech (so like +60 tries). so i thought to myself "eh, i'll just brute force it instead" and i tanked and healed.

whatever advanced techs i can't learn & perform, i compensate with spending more resources. still beat FW, still enjoyed the loot and the rift. can't imagine being salty that other people play a mostly singleplayer&sandbox game better than/different from you.

[Crimson Hollow]

there's not a single boss in this game that can't be beaten if you don't anim cancel. it's not breaking the balance of things either, so it has the right to exist for sure 

though as a side note, there's no excuse for calling others noobs for not doing it

[Guille6785]

1 minute ago, Crimson Hollow said:

though as a side note, there's no excuse for calling others noobs for not doing it

thankfully literally not a single person in the history of the game has ever done this so nothing to worry about

[Crimson Hollow]

11 hours ago, astareus said:

Practice makes perfect. Just practice the fight and you'll be doing it no worries.

Just watch big DST streamers, they do fw solo on wilson looking at chat while also animation cancelling. Rollback is a feature for a reason.

this is not gonna help.

Just now, Guille6785 said:

thankfully literally not a single person in the history of the game has ever done this so nothing to worry about

at least not here lol, wasn't abt u guys 

 

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, Dwight34 said:

I really despise animation cancelling. It's very obviously unintended behavior, only existing as a consequence of Klei letting you move away after an attack so you are able to dodge and not locked into animations. It's fine for glitched speedruns, but it's abusing a glitch that borders on cheating for me, and it should never be considered in any balance discussion. There is nothing fun or logical about swapping your helmet every half second each fight.

I used to never like animation cancelling because I always associated it with cheaters using client mods to automate it, but recently I just randomly tried doing it and it's actually dope as hell and makes combat a lot more fun & engaging. It isn't hard to do, but it is possible to mess up, so it adds a little complexity to the otherwise very simple combat. It can also give you some more stuff to pay attention to and think about, like if you're anim cancelling by swapping out your only piece of armor you gotta make sure you end with the armor equipped, and I think if you're swapping off the miner hat you lose a lot of sanity from the darkness. 

[Dwight34]

31 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

I used to never like animation cancelling because I always associated it with cheaters using client mods to automate it, but recently I just randomly tried doing it and it's actually dope as hell and makes combat a lot more fun & engaging. It isn't hard to do, but it is possible to mess up, so it adds a little complexity to the otherwise very simple combat. It can also give you some more stuff to pay attention to and think about, like if you're anim cancelling by swapping out your only piece of armor you gotta make sure you end with the armor equipped, and I think if you're swapping off the miner hat you lose a lot of sanity from the darkness. 

It's not hard, but it's a carpal-tunnel speedrun that looks dumb because it is dumb. it is a glitch since it's unintended behavior abusing the way the game was made to not allow the player to be unfairly attacked by always giving them the ability to dodge and cancel their own attack animations, using it instead to remove your own helmet every half second. Anyone who uses that technique might as well console command themselves a 33% damage boost, it will do the same without ruining their hand and mouse. And before any cope comes, they're usually the same players who abused void walking or planting 100 trees in the same exact spot so if they're saying using this console command instead of carpal-tunnel is cheating, I can only kek at it.

All Guille's post shows is that the devs know it is a glitch, but didn't get rid of it completely to not get too much hate from the "hardcore" community. The fact he calls pointing out a glitch as a glitch as "trolling" is very typical of this mindset of "If something exists in the game, it can't possibly be a glitch, and it should be included as a mainline in any balance discussion and a legitimate combat technique, any criticism is just people who can't git gud".

The fact is, the DPS intended by the devs is the one you get by holding F, simple as. Using glitches to get rid of the hard-coded animation down-time is a glitch, simple as.

Edit: It always amazes me how this game has one of the biggest communities of glitchers being ashamed of it for some reason. If in Skyrim you could double your attack speed by spamming opening and closing the menu after each attack, it would universally be recognized as a glitch, but in DST there is this constant weird pseudo-elitist coping.

[Cheggf]

1 minute ago, Dwight34 said:

It's not hard, but it's a carpal-tunnel speedrun that looks dumb because it is dumb. it is a glitch since it's unintended behavior abusing the way the game was made to not allow the player to be unfairly attacked by always giving them the ability to dodge and cancel their own attack animations, using it instead to remove your own helmet every half second. Anyone who uses that technique might as well console command themselves a 33% damage boost, it will do the same without ruining their hand and mouse. And before any cope comes, they're usually the same players who abused void walking or planting 100 trees in the same exact spot so if they're saying using this console command instead of carpal-tunnel is cheating, I can only kek at it.

All Guille's post shows is that the devs know it is a glitch, but didn't get rid of it completely to not get too much hate from the "hardcore" community. The fact he calls pointing out a glitch as a glitch as "trolling" is very typical of this mindset of "If something exists in the game, it can't possibly be a glitch, and it should be included as a mainline in any balance discussion and a legitimate combat technique, any criticism is just people who can't git gud".

The fact is, the DPS intended by the devs is the one you get by holding F, simple as. Using glitches to get rid of the hard-coded animation down-time is a glitch, simple as.

Rowing is "carpal tunnel inducing", animation cancelling is "carpal tunnel inducing". If you guys all have these super big health problems where you can't even press 2 buttons per second you literally should not be playing videogames at all. Period. Maybe if it was like a visual novel or a turn based game you could play it, but if 2 inputs per second is causing you strain then there is a major problem and you are provoking it way more with your movement inputs than you would be with animation cancelling. 

[_mylilsunshine_]

^^ not going to feed the flame, trying to bring this thread back on-topic vv

On 3/12/2025 at 10:10 AM, Risar said:

Going to vent. This fight is absolutely annoying as heck. Specifically the invisible hands mechanic, they seem nearly impossible to target and flipping the nightmare amulet on and off while the F key targeting keeps pulling you back to fuelweaver, absolutely s--- mechanic. I've even tried using houndius shootius and we still can't win in a team of 2, and while we aren't pro, we aren't bad. This is honestly just a horrible fight for the capstone. 

Worse I'm playing as Wortox and if there are shadows anywhere you can't successfully teleport often because of the pillars and shadows obscuring the view, I'm over here rage clicking and nothing is happening 

when i first attempted FW, single, it took me more than 20 rerolls to beat him once, but i used a lot of resources (armor, healing, weapons, etc.) so i wasn't satisfied. tried for another 20 and still couldn't quite get a win i'm happy with.

after i finally got another win, still not great, i thought to myself "good enough" and stopped trying for better. activated the rift and enjoyed the endgame content.

i took a 1-2 year break or so and when i came back, i beat him more often and more efficiently. that break was important for my mental.

the fact is: FW is a hard fight, worthy of its final boss status. there's a lot of things for you to manage and it can be overwhelming, and co-op/multiplayer might not be a guaranteed (easy) win because it's more room for mistakes and you also need to coordinate with the other(s). whoever argues that the fight is unfair like this or badly designed like that etc. etc. is just derailing you from one simple truth: practice makes perfect, knowledge is power. also, you can fill the skill gap with resources, meaning spending more so you can practice less. tanking and chomping healing is always viable.

if this game was easy i wouldn't have loved it as much.

[Dwight34]

5 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Rowing is "carpal tunnel inducing", animation cancelling is "carpal tunnel inducing". If you guys all have these super big health problems where you can't even press 2 buttons per second you literally should not be playing videogames at all. Period. Maybe if it was like a visual novel or a turn based game you could play it, but if 2 inputs per second is causing you strain then there is a major problem and you are provoking it way more with your movement inputs than you would be with animation cancelling. 

Mindlessly spamming the mouse for minutes on end is carpal tunnel inducing, I can't help you if you refuse to read or understand definitions. I don't have health problems, but those obliging by those mindsets will get them. There is a reason people who play cookie clicker always get an auto-clicker eventually, and it's not muh lack of skill. It's fascinating that you don't realize people wouldn't criticize you for your behavior if you owned up to it, instead of having all these weird insecurities about presenting glitches and exploits as perfectly normal ways. Like that video from can'trememberhisname semi-big dst youtuber who kept justifying void-walking as normal and was really mad at Klei for removing it, saying it was exactly the same as Wortox teleporting with his souls or using a lazy deserter and just "saving time".

[Cheggf]

Just now, Dwight34 said:

Mindlessly spamming the mouse for minutes on end is carpal tunnel inducing, I can't help you if you refuse to read or understand definitions. I don't have health problems, but those obliging by those mindsets will get them. There is a reason people who play cookie clicker always get an auto-clicker eventually, and it's not muh lack of skill. It's fascinating that you don't realize people wouldn't criticize you for your behavior if you owned up to it, instead of having all these weird insecurities about presenting glitches and exploits as perfectly normal ways. Like that video from can'trememberhisname semi-big dst youtuber who kept justifying void-walking as normal and was really mad at Klei for removing it, saying it was exactly the same as Wortox teleporting with his souls or using a lazy deserter and just "saving time".

It's not mindless.

[Dwight34]

6 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

whoever argues that the fight is unfair like this or badly designed like that etc. etc. is just derailing you from one simple truth: practice makes perfect, knowledge is power.

"Nothing can ever be badly designed if you can get better at it" Hum...

[Cheggf]

15 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

"Nothing can ever be badly designed if you can get better at it" Hum...

Are you being disingenuous on purpose? No one ever said anything remotely similar to that. 

[WilsonHiggs]

1 hour ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

idk how people are saying anim cancel is a "glitch"/"unintended behaviour" that's being "abused" when animation canceling might as well have existed since the dawn of gaming and is present in a majority of games. there will always be redundancy in animation and people will always find a way to skip/cancel it.

do you know what is a glitch/unintended behaviour? blocking entities with fleshy bulb plants and void walking, both of which have been patched out of the game.

i don't anim cancel and i don't intend to. i defeated all bosses without anim cancel and i don't think it's necessary for anything at all. yet i don't call it "cheating" or whatever. if people want to optimize their gameplay, more power to them. doesn't make me a bum or a casual for not using an "advanced tech." calling it "cheating" feels salty.

and i don't think i've ever seen anyone taking anim cancel into balance consideration. advising people to do more damage? sure people will recommend learning anim cancel. balancing combat around the fact that anim cancel exists? can't seem to find anyone who has said anything remotely close to it. if you do find these people, provide evidence so we can all have a healthy discussion instead of pointing fingers.

Not against people using it and i have used it in competitive games, i dont like to use it in this game but i don't care how others play if they dont care how i play, but no, isnt intended to use the animation canceling to have higher attack speed. Was made to be able to cancel actions from mistakes or to prevent being locked in the animation while a new danger appear.

If was intended things like beefalos or wanda having slower atack speed wont make sense, less if you take into account that the slower the animation the easier to cancel it

[AliceShiki]

2 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

this is kind of derailing the thread a bit and I don't want to feed the trolls any more than I have to but no, animation cancelling is objectively not unintended nor a glitch, the developers have specifically addressed it, balanced it and unambiguously stated (after a patch) that deliberate animation cancelling has been permitted by them to result in a faster attack speed:

For what it's worth, I think it's valid for someone to say that animation canceling is intended, but animation canceling for the sake of increasing attack speed is unintended, but also not a bug, just like... Using a tool of the game for a different purpose.

The rebalancing in that post seems more like the devs don't mind the existence of animation canceling for attack speed (for as long as it doesn't increase attack speed to ridiculous numbers) and think there are no problems with more experienced players using it, not necessarily that it was intended.

Dunno, this reminds me of stuff like one Halo game remaster where devs purposefully added back some old bugs because they thought it was cool to see what people could use those bugs for in speedruns (granted, animation canceling isn't a bug), as in... Something totally non-intended, but also something cool enough and that doesn't cause any issues to the game, so the devs decided to just keep it in and make it essentially become a feature even if it's technically unintended behavior.

That's how I view it at least.

[Gashzer]

2 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

silence, gashzer alt

Haha, I need no alt. 

Good to see my will is spreading to the masses tho 

[Dwight34]

40 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

For what it's worth, I think it's valid for someone to say that animation canceling is intended, but animation canceling for the sake of increasing attack speed is unintended, but also not a bug, just like... Using a tool of the game for a different purpose.

The rebalancing in that post seems more like the devs don't mind the existence of animation canceling for attack speed (for as long as it doesn't increase attack speed to ridiculous numbers) and think there are no problems with more experienced players using it, not necessarily that it was intended.

Dunno, this reminds me of stuff like one Halo game remaster where devs purposefully added back some old bugs because they thought it was cool to see what people could use those bugs for in speedruns (granted, animation canceling isn't a bug), as in... Something totally non-intended, but also something cool enough and that doesn't cause any issues to the game, so the devs decided to just keep it in and make it essentially become a feature even if it's technically unintended behavior.

That's how I view it at least.

Indeed, same with the "giant launching you into orbit" bug in Skyrim, entirely unintended, but since it was funny it was deliberately kept in.

[Guille6785]

6 hours ago, AliceShiki said:

Something totally non-intended, but also something cool enough and that doesn't cause any issues to the game, so the devs decided to just keep it in and make it essentially become a feature even if it's technically unintended behavior.

and animation cancelling (to increase attack speed, not just to cancel attacks) was purposely made a feature the second the developers dedicated a patch to deciding what benefit it's supposed to give you

[Cassielu]

Fuelweaver is the most perfect boss in this game, he doesn't need and shouldn't have any changes in himself.

some qol for input is really needed here, like when AFW has a shield he should have the lowest priority for F key.

16 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

If Klei intended for them to be thematic and mechanical counterparts from the start, then the fault isn't on Ancient Fuelweaver for being to hard, it's on CC for not following the precedent that ancient fuelweaver set years before hand. Celestial Champion got a harder quest line, easier fight, and worse loot well after everything involving the fuelweaver was set in stone. By your own logic, they're the one who's poorly designed, not AFW.

True dude, before CC was added to the game I always expected the developers create a boss as good as AFW to string together everything they had created in Return of Them arc - How would sleep, ocean and enlightenment mechanism work in this combat? Which unwanted items will be useful in this combat? I was really disappointed when I finally found out that it was just a simple ACT battle where you just only do WASD things to solve everything.

[Swiyss]

11 hours ago, Dwight34 said:

I really despise animation cancelling. It's very obviously unintended behavior, only existing as a consequence of Klei letting you move away after an attack so you are able to dodge and not locked into animations. It's fine for glitched speedruns, but it's abusing a glitch that borders on cheating for me, and it should never be considered in any balance discussion. There is nothing fun or logical about swapping your helmet every half second each fight.

@Guille6785 said it. There's no way you're like, not kidding.

9 hours ago, Dwight34 said:

ruining their hand and mouse

This just shows me that you never tried it. So you got no place to say it is a glitch if you're not even familiar with it.

[WilsonHiggs]

1 hour ago, Cassielu said:

Fuelweaver is the most perfect boss in this game, he doesn't need and shouldn't have any changes in himself.

some qol for input is really needed here, like when AFW has a shield he should have the lowest priority for F key.

True dude, before CC was added to the game I always expected the developers create a boss as good as AFW to string together everything they had created in Return of Them arc - How would sleep, ocean and enlightenment mechanism work in this combat? Which unwanted items will be useful in this combat? I was really disappointed when I finally found out that it was just a simple ACT battle where you just only do WASD things to solve everything.

The problem is also how underdeveloped is the enlightement mechanic even after all these years

[Guille6785]

1 hour ago, WilsonHiggs said:

The problem is also how underdeveloped is the enlightement mechanic even after all these years

cc would've been kind of interesting if enlightenment disabled shadow equipment, which thematically would make sense, so no dark swords/magiluminescence/etc allowed which would've given the devs wiggle room to make a very interesting fight beyond just dodging attacks (provided you couldn't just chug 14 green caps to trivialize the mechanic)

[lowercase skye]

10 hours ago, Dwight34 said:

There is a reason people who play cookie clicker always get an auto-clicker eventually

I'm not a big fan of anim cancelling either, but this is simply untrue. I've been playing Cookie Clicker for well over a decade, with my current "run" having lasted 3 years so far, and I never at any point have felt the need for an auto clicker. The game is designed around the fact that you can't be clicking constantly, and so you need to string together golden cookie combos that only ever expect you to be clicking the cookie for like 7 seconds every couple hours. Saying that people who play Cookie Clicker "always get an auto-clicker" is very out of touch with how people actually play the game.