Will Wendy skilltree be reviewed in the next update like Wolfgang was?

[Popian]

2 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

this ain't it chief

It looks like he did better than 10 games in 1, unless some things don't count?

1. Pipspooks
2. Elixirs
3. Sisturn
4. Butterfly
5. Wreath
6. Altar
7. Vengeful Ghost
8. Graves
9. Team Spirit
10. Gestalt Abigail
11. Shadow Abigail

[RexySeven]

17 hours ago, PunkShark said:

Why should Wolfgang have even more than he already has if his role is very much at the tipping point of his potential with mightiness.

They could've make his skill tree at least exciting in some way, his current skill tree is like a burger but with no patty, no ketchup, no tomatoes, no pickles, no lettuce - it's a two buns and thin cheese slice in between.

Of course you can counter it as "well if the character is strong then he gets dull skill tree", it really depends if either or both Maxwell or Wanda get good skill tree in the future; if they do - it leaves absolutely no excuse why Wolfgang's skill tree is so unbelievably stinky bad. 

[GrapeVruit]

34 minutes ago, Insaginary said:

@Echsrick is lashing out at everyone due to probably being disappointed and exhausted for so long. 

Understandable as to why; not an excuse to be a jerk, but understandable nonetheless. 

Maybe they could list every single gripe they have with Wortox, from basekit to skilltree, in greater detail instead of one-off statements, so that we can get the full picture as to why their so sour.

If anything, I'm simply curious myself. He certainly looks fun to play, but I obviously can't due to limitations. 

If you ask me, he's a pretty fun character to play, especially if you want a more easygoing playthrough. Souls get you around the map faster, can heal back a good chunk of health, and is a food item that never spoils. While I haven't played the character a ton, only touching him after the update, I had a blast playing around with his kit. If you're able to pick him up, I'd recommend him.

[IAmAFurrz]

On 3/5/2025 at 1:47 PM, Insaginary said:

 

For example, I feel like Shadow Abigail's decrease in power could be made up for in the form of making it easier to use her often, since she's no longer a powerhouse you save specifically for boss fights

she actually is still very powerful but just less reward overall for pre-rift bosses (still love her vex potion tho, if used with thule club its very fun and interactive)

23 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

nobody in their right mind could consciously take a look at Wolfgang's skill tree and say with a straight face that Wendy's is somehow worse than it

well, the wendy™ crowd will never settle for anything that doesnt just straight up remove abi's weaknesses by making her unkillable + also kills nightamres.

[GrapeVruit]

1 hour ago, Echsrick said:

wortox without souls is just wilson with litteraly nothing goin on for besides that pigs hate him.

Well, of course he's like Wilson if you're not using his main perk! You could say the same with everyone on the roster. Wendy without Abi is a weaker Wilson, Wickerbottom without her books is Wilson with a Science Machine tapped to her back, Webber is like Wilson but pigs hate him, etc. Even if Wortox is like Wilson at his base, he's still a good character, maybe not that interesting, but not "The worst character ever."

 

1 hour ago, Echsrick said:

teleport sure, heal and hunger? litteraly make cook pots

I can get behind cooking crockpot foods for hunger, the souls aren't bad for keeping you full, but some foods are more filling than eating the souls of the dammed, plus it helps keep more of them in your pockets. But health? I usually find it faster and more efficient to quick drop them on the ground than to make something like pierogi. I guess it's good when you don't have the soul jar skills unlocked or you want to drop the jars to have more inventory space, but for me, souls are just so convenient for healing I don't bother with healing food or items.

 

1 hour ago, Echsrick said:

alsol wortox skill tree litteraly can make things worse for you, just like the soul damage one makin everything go after you instead

The soul pierce drawing aggro of other mobs? In my current playthrough, it's a little annoying that something gets drawn to you from a creature dying, but I would just soul hop away or even tank their damage using his lunar affinity skill. The naughty side reduces your soul heals from 20 to 15, which can cause you to spend more souls to patch yourself up, but if you unlocked the soul decoy and soul pierce skills as well as soul jars which increase your soul carrying capacity, it's not that big of a deal to get more. And if you're really struggling to keep your health up with them, you could always use healing food/items. 

[SilverSpoon]

Wendy's skill tree isn't as worse as Wilson's or Wolfgang's, but it's still bad enough to need the more grind.

 

3 hours ago, GrapeVruit said:

Why do some people think Wortox has either a weak base or a weak tree?

Yes, Wortox's skill tree is strong, but not fun enough. Still there is bunch of filler skills and ~% skills. And the same goes for Wendy's.

[PunkShark]

3 hours ago, RexySeven said:

They could've make his skill tree at least exciting in some way, his current skill tree is like a burger but with no patty, no ketchup, no tomatoes, no pickles, no lettuce - it's a two buns and thin cheese slice in between.

Of course you can counter it as "well if the character is strong then he gets dull skill tree", it really depends if either or both Maxwell or Wanda get good skill tree in the future; if they do - it leaves absolutely no excuse why Wolfgang's skill tree is so unbelievably stinky bad. 

The issue is Wolfgang already has a lot within his basekit.
This is one of the sole reasons why they made it the way it is because what they wanted to add was already in the basekit. And because Wolfgang being a very simple character there's just not much space to add that is unique. And because his potential of power is already high from the get-go, it makes sense why his skill tree is such a nothing burger except for giving raw planar dmg (something that people asked for) and all the other smaller perks regarding mightiness. I will admit, i do wish the existing perks could use some buffs like the thermbell, or the whistle. (or changing his skill tree visually so it looks circus themed) But there is no point to give him a skill tree rework when his power is already so high from the moment he's in the world. The only issue that people have with Wolfgang isn't with the skill tree itself but because he's so simplisticly boring, and that's another matter of taste and preference.

[Steorra]

4 hours ago, RexySeven said:

his current skill tree is like a burger but with no patty, no ketchup, no tomatoes, no pickles, no lettuce - it's a two buns and thin cheese slice in between.

No, his tree is a burger without other things but 300 pieces patty.

[Steorra]

5 hours ago, GrapeVruit said:

Why do some people think Wortox has either a weak base or a weak tree? Maybe I'm not the best to speak on the matter, I've just started playing Wortox 4 days ago, but having cheap and easy teleports, heals, and hunger, as well as more goodies in his tree, is incredibly strong if you ask me (Makes sense for a DLC character). If he's considered to be a bad character, Maxwell might as well be unplayable. 

I guess it's more like a skill issue.

For example:

Lack of skill to use the Invisible Frame of Wortox which is pretty OP once the tree make it have an extra time. (In this logic Wanda is a weak character)

Lack of skill to use double decoy for souls farming. (It's more like someone complaining the Codex Umbra is hard to use because it need fuel and sanity.)

 

 

[Dr. Safety]

1 hour ago, aoka404 said:

The quality of the three skill trees in this update is uneven, are the team members schizophrenic?

The quality of the three characters were uneven before the skill trees, just in the opposite direction. That was the problem.

The only characters who received game changing skill trees were ones who are "pick and swap" or who were unconditionally weak outside of very specific situations. Wendy was neither of these. Walter was, hence the difference in quality.

Even average characters got minor tweaks and flavor in their skill tree. See Wilson, Wormwood, and Wigfrid for more details

1 hour ago, aoka404 said:

 

Or someone with too much power.

Wendy technically, at least out of the three characters in this update

[GrapeVruit]

4 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Wendy's skill tree isn't as worse as Wilson's or Wolfgang's, but it's still bad enough to need the more grind.

 

Yes, Wortox's skill tree is strong, but not fun enough. Still there is bunch of filler skills and ~% skills. And the same goes for Wendy's.

Well, fun in it of itself is personal and subjective. Maybe you might not find stuff like his soul piercing or decoys fun, but I personally think they are. As for filler skills, like the the versions of soul pierce, decoy, etc., they're probably there to prevent players from selecting too many skills on either side, which can cause players to think more carefully about the skills they spec into instead of having them all.

[Anis5240]

15 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

Even average characters got minor tweaks and flavor in their skill tree. See Wilson

ah yes, Wilson the material grinding character, such NOT wonderful flavor

[Cruvimaster]

The developers spent a lot of time on this latest beta. I hope they are working 100% focused on the next update.

[Dr. Safety]

14 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

ah yes, Wilson the material grinding character, such NOT wonderful flavor

My point was that even average characters got unremarkable skill trees, including Wilson. I guess I should have been more clear

[IAmAFurrz]

5 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Wendy's skill tree isn't as worse as Wilson's or Wolfgang's, but it's still bad enough to need the more grind.

definitely not skewed, and definitely not completely ruined by the gigantic chinese wendy crowd that want abigail to do literally everything so wendy has to do nothing 

[Mysterious box]

10 hours ago, Cassielu said:

It's good to see that other people feel the same, Wendy's and Wormwood's skill trees are built in very similar ways.

That's actually might be reason why I dislike them both and also Im confused with why Klei decided to do it again after the terrible feedback of Wormwood from the whole communities.

I mean Wormwood's and Wendy's skill tree are of the better ones excluding that one branch that should have been a station but eveyone is going to have gripes with the skill trees in one way or another if we rebuild skill trees over a few skills that are off then we may as well restart all skill trees as even characters like Wurt and Woodie have issues with their skill trees.

[SilverSpoon]

1 hour ago, GrapeVruit said:

Well, fun in it of itself is personal and subjective. Maybe you might not find stuff like his soul piercing or decoys fun, but I personally think they are. As for filler skills, like the the versions of soul pierce, decoy, etc., they're probably there to prevent players from selecting too many skills on either side, which can cause players to think more carefully about the skills they spec into instead of having them all.

I would not to say that all of his skill trees are not fun and I admit that there are certainly a lot of fun and good skills, but there are still filler or not good skills. Walter's skill tree proved that it's possible to create skill tree that's almost perfect with no filler skills, so Wortox's and Wendy's skill trees still need grinding to that's level.

42 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

definitely not skewed, and definitely not completely ruined by the gigantic chinese wendy crowd that want abigail to do literally everything so wendy has to do nothing 

So you should just go objection to JoeW again like other vote.

 

 

[Mysterious box]

12 hours ago, Cassielu said:

Nonsense, everyone knows Wortox has been one of the most powerful characters in the game after getting map jump and soul echo

This just isn't true map teleports were neat but he couldn't gather souls fast enough for it to matter for most people map warps consumed basically all his souls so it instead turned into grind vs travel time and even then if you needed to go somewhere far without many mobs that meant you needed to get a creatures to carry for the return trip which only made the prep time longer. Wortox was a early game character pre skill tree but by winter and beyond he fell off hard and that's before mentioning Wanda and post skill tree Winona who was just straight up better at his job. The skill tree definitely brought him back up to where Winona and Wanda are in terms of travel but even then it could be said that those two are still more convenient when it comes to teleporting after their networks are established properly especially Wanda since hers is cross shard and requires no additional resource investments. When people look at how much more lenient klei got with Wortox's soul caps and costs they tend to overlook how hard it is to compete with free fast travel.

[aoka404]

3 hours ago, Dr. Safety said:

The quality of the three characters were uneven before the skill trees, just in the opposite direction. That was the problem.

The only characters who received game changing skill trees were ones who are "pick and swap" or who were unconditionally weak outside of very specific situations. Wendy was neither of these. Walter was, hence the difference in quality.

Even average characters got minor tweaks and flavor in their skill tree. See Wilson, Wormwood, and Wigfrid for more details

Wendy technically, at least out of the three characters in this update

This skill tree is not because it is weak, but when you experience it, you can feel that most of it is cumbersome and has no practical significance.

The arrangement of skill points is even worse, the ability to "revive the butterfly" has no meaning on its own, but it is a pre-skill point that almost must be selected.

After testing, the whole game process in addition to the obvious small and tedious combat improvement, there is always a reflection of the designer's strange and boring thinking.

[Steorra]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

This just isn't true map teleports were neat but he couldn't gather souls fast enough for it to matter for most people map warps consumed basically all his souls so it instead turned into grind vs travel time and even then if you needed to go somewhere far without many mobs that meant you needed to get a creatures to carry for the return trip which only made the prep time longer. Wortox was a early game character pre skill tree but by winter and beyond he fell off hard and that's before mentioning Wanda and post skill tree Winona who was just straight up better at his job. The skill tree definitely brought him back up to where Winona and Wanda are in terms of travel but even then it could be said that those two are still more convenient when it comes to teleporting after their networks are established properly especially Wanda since hers is cross shard and requires no additional resource investments. When people look at how much more lenient klei got with Wortox's soul caps and costs they tend to overlook how hard it is to compete with free fast travel.

We did have many evidence to prove why Wortox is a Tier I character in public server once the player have basic knowledges of the game.

[Koomin]

12 minutes ago, Steorra said:

We did have many evidence to prove why Wortox is a Tier I character in public server once the player have basic knowledges of the game.

Ok if this is what we are going with: we have an entire mountain of evidence to prove Wendy is a "Tier 1" character, even whether the player has basic knowledge of the game or not.  

[Crimson Hollow]

3 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

I would not to say that all of his skill trees are not fun and I admit that there are certainly a lot of fun and good skills, but there are still filler or not good skills. Walter's skill tree proved that it's possible to create skill tree that's almost perfect with no filler skills, so Wortox's and Wendy's skill trees still need grinding to that's level.

Guess it also depends on how much potential the character has/how underdeveloped they were before the tree, but i agree that filler is filler.

[Theukon-dos]

Ok, here's a question. You keep going on about how bad Wendy's skill tree is. But if that's the case, then what would you actually want out of it? Don't get me wrong, I don't think Wendy's skill tree is all that great either. But calling it outright the worst is a bold claim to make without any reason to back it up.

[SilverSpoon]

28 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Ok if this is what we are going with: we have an entire mountain of evidence to prove Wendy is a "Tier 1" character, even whether the player has basic knowledge of the game or not.  

Yes, Wendy is certainly just as strong as Woltox. And they have the same issues(The skill tree contains multiple filler, boring, or too weak skills), and need just as much grind skill tree.

I'm glad you and I can finally agree.

[SilverSpoon]

26 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Ok, here's a question. You keep going on about how bad Wendy's skill tree is. But if that's the case, then what would you actually want out of it? Don't get me wrong, I don't think Wendy's skill tree is all that great either. But calling it outright the worst is a bold claim to make without any reason to back it up.

I wouldn't say her skill tree is the worst, this is my list.

• Her skill tree still contains some filler skills (Sistern I-II, Grave I, Pipspook I-II).
• Removing Wrath's Wreath will consume the entire duration of the elixir.
• Affinity elixirs cannot be used in Wrath's Wreath.
• Cursed Vexation is different from regular Vex in that it adds +10 planar damage to all character attacks.
• Perennial Altar is no different from Meat Effigy.
• "Haunt" command's RNG should be removed. 
• In a Moon Storm, the only way to return Gestabby is to defeat the Celestial Champion or change characters.
• Uniformly increased the cooldown of "Attack At", so if you use "Attack At" as a means of movement, this is a pure deterioration.
• The AoE only does 66.6 damage during the day. It takes 3 shots and 30 seconds to kill a single Hound or Grumble Bee, so it's not really worth it. Nightshade Nostrum gives you decent damage, but I hate having to use consumables every time I use an AoE.
• On the other hand, Luminous Wrath will deal at least 100 damage to every enemy it hits, making it too powerful that it almost eliminates Gestabby's downside.

[Parts requiring deliberation]

• Even if you consume elixir, make sure Abigail doesn't die, kill mobs at hand every few seconds, and fight at night or limit Abigail healing, she still can't reach Wolfgang's DPS. Considering that she is a combat character, AoE is already widespread among characters, Wolfgang also has an AoE of 42.5/hit, and another combat character, Winona, can output DPS of "catapult x 120", I don't think DPS is enough.
• The healing penalty is not appropriate for the Sistern III.